In the US, life cycle emissions for EVs are 60-68% lower than gasoline.

[IkeaGnome]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That's still splitting needless hairs, repairs is a sub more descriptive act within the overarching act of maintenance. A repair is a repair yes, inspection is inspection yes, all inside the overall act of maintenance.

Correct. I wasn't trying to jump on sides there. I was just trying to explain why other people might think they way they do based on industry.  If you go through our sheet, remove everything for the engine, that's not magically what you would get with an EV. There's still going to be stuff to check in an EV that you wouldn't in an ICE vehicle. Possible resistance across motors, more time spent servicing batteries etc.

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

370GT goes through tyres exceedingly faster than my Leaf

That could simply be many things, that once again is not relevant to weight. Possibly more fun to drive. LSD or posi rear end? You'll toast tires. My Toyota will kill a set of BFG KM/2's a year if I take it out enough. No slip in the rear end, so the rear tires just get annihilated if I drive it on pavement. My 150 though, which weighs almost twice as much has lasted 3 years on the same set of tires and I'm just now starting to look at others. 

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And there certainly is a difference between preventative maintenance but ultimately none of these make any difference to the whole ICE vs BEV maintenance comparisons.

There is. I personally think you remove one thing, it gets added in something else. You remove the ICE. You no longer have to worry about oil. Now it's cables to keep an eye on. You remove the pistons. It's now the stator you have to keep an eye on. So on and so forth. 

 

Edit: Posted before I was completely done.

Sandvik is working on going all auto mine. We are working on that too. You get rid of the operator. You add fibre ran through the mine, a computer on surface to run it all. Sensors and cameras. LiDar is used to keep an "eye" on the walls. If you're curious about that set up, I can PM you a video we've got on YT, but it's got the name of the mine, so I'd rather know who I'm sending the link directly to if that makes sense.

There's always compromises when you remove things. It's never "we don't have that to worry about now." It's "We don't have that to worry about now, but we have x y and z" 

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

That could simply be many things, that once again is not relevant to weight. Possibly more fun to drive. LSD or posi rear end? You'll toast tires. My Toyota will kill a set of BFG KM/2's a year if I take it out enough. No slip in the rear end, so the rear tires just get annihilated if I drive it on pavement. My 150 though, which weighs almost twice as much has lasted 3 years on the same set of tires and I'm just now starting to look at others. 

Yea it's a Type S so LSD, TC and ESC always on too. RE050A just aren't a long lasting tyre, not supposed to be. My Leaf on the other hand does have long lasting ECO tyres.

[Distinctly Average]

On 8/3/2021 at 8:50 PM, WihGlah said:

This only applies if you buy the car and drive it until it drops. If you buy a  new car every 3 years, then your carbon footprint is WORSE with a BEV.

How does buying a BEV compared to an ICE make any difference? If you buy an ICE every three years then the BEV will still be a lower carbon footprint. Please explain how the BEV will have a higher one?

[Guest]

15 hours ago, leadeater said:

I'm sorry but the only engine maintenance that's ever been done on my car is oil changes and air filter so if the argument is only drive-train vs drive-train then there is hardly any difference at all.

 

I've owned that vehicle since 25,000 KMs and it's now just on 100,000 KMs, plenty of chance during that time for it to have needed more but it simply has not, not even spark plugs.

 

Anything that you repair on a car is literally performing maintenance on the vehicle....

 

But it just isn't. I'd also be extremely annoyed if I was paying for maintenance service and the only things being done were visual inspections, I'd be asking for my money back.

 

Even if one day my engine decides to throw a piston through the block and I have to get the engine replaced that's still vehicle maintenance.

I wish that was all true, but in my profession it is not.

 

You've heard the term "20 point inspection" right? Yes that's a completely separate charge a lot of oil service companies advertise as free so they can inspect a vehicle and make money on repairs.

 

So no. You're pretty far off from understanding what a repair is and maintenance.

 

You could classify repair under maintenance, but its not. Under maintenance in you vehicle handbook, it says inspect. Not R and R. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

This will be a little bit long winded with lots of pictures. Maintenance=/=repairs. I'll attach a 45 day PM sheet (preventative maintenance) that we use for pickups out here at the mine. Notice none of this stuff is repairs. Maintenance finds the issues that you fix after with repairs. I'll also attach part of our work order creation. 12. Preventative maintenance is inspections and services. 14 is repairs.

  Hide contents

The whole service/maintenance/repairs argument makes sense. That being said. You are doing a service on a car or piece of equipment when you are doing the maintenance. Repairs are the actual fixes to what you find during the maintenance. 

Right.

Preventative maintenance is simply the inspection part. This is a separate charge to a customer, the DOT inspection. The same one that leadeater would ask his money back for. And never know what might need to be repaired to stay DOT legal and safe and what he could hold off on. 

 

It's like leadeaters transmission goes out. Lost second gear. Takes it to the trans shop and ask for a transmission maintenance and they change the oil and filter instead of rebuilding the transmission because the definition was flawed when the customer asked for maintenance done to the trans. 

 

No. The trans rebuild is a repair.

Piston through the block is a repair.

Simply checking your oil is maintaining your engine. Something you don't do with electric motors.

[Stahlmann]

On 8/3/2021 at 4:50 PM, Quackers101 said:

maintenance free is a lie, any part can have issues and might need maintenance... (also if you are talking about EV in general or batteries)

if it's regular maintenance? maybe less to none. cables and eletric systems can still fail or need maintenance to software which is another can of worms.

Not to mention any part breaking or poor part added that will have issues, to get your car checked or towed.

No one said the stuff is indestructible. Just that you don't have to do any additional maintenance to make it last for it's intended lifetime.

 

It's the same example as custom water cooling vs. AiO's. With a custom loop you need to change the water periodically, maybe clean a waterblock to reach the maximum life time. If you disregard these things, your loop parts will likely fail prematurely. Be it from a failing pump or gunked up blocks.

 

The AiO is a completely maintenance free closed loop. You don't have to do anything after the factory to make it last for it's life cycly. But that doesn't mean it's completely immune to premature failure.

[Stahlmann]

On 8/3/2021 at 8:50 PM, Senzelian said:

So people can fill up their cars of course.

Most people that would get an EV will charge it at home most of the time. The only people using the roadside chargers would be the ones going on longer trips or forget to charge at home. You don't need as big of a charging infrastructure as you need a refueling one for ICE vehicles. With ICE cars people don't have the option to refuel at home, so everyone is completely dependant on gas stations/infrastructure.

 

My daily commute is 75km. So with a 400km range EV it would be enough to charge my car once a week. My grocery shopping is on my work commute, so it doesn't need any extra range. The ONLY situation where i needed more than a 400km range was for my vacation last week, which took 900km. But on such a long trip i normally take 1-2 breaks anyway, which i could've used to charge up.

 

What i'm trying to say is: Any EV with 400km of range would allow me to replace my Diesel car with no additional trouble whatsoever. People say they are ready to consider EV's when they get more range, etc... We are at the point where a decent EV will cover 99% of peoples needs. I will not throw away my 3.5 year old diesel Audi just because i like the idea of an electric vehicle. That would just destroy the point of EV's trying to be more economic. But WHEN my diesel won't cut it anymore because of some failure, etc. i'm pretty sure my next car will be electric. By then there should also be a good selection of these on the 2nd hand market.

 

As we're already at used cars: Another great point with EV's is that you can buy used ones with much more peace-of-mind. The first 2 cars i bought were not treated right by the previous owners. Be it slamming the gas pedal before the engine is on it's operating temperature, or not using the right oil when it's changed because the other one is cheaper, etc. With EV's there is not much room for failures to sneak in because of a reckless pre-owner.

[Beerzerker]

This reminds me of something I was taught a long time ago by a certain instructor I had at one time in my life, right out of High School TBH.
He made the point to us about using the correct terminology for what we'd be referring to, so the meaning of what's being talked about between two or more individuals isn't confused leading to misunderstanding or even arguements like this.

Maintenance is the "Correct" terminology for things like topping off fluids, lubing the chassis and that kind of thing because you are maintaining the condition of the vehicle "As Is". You actually have to do something for it to become maintenance, not just look.
Adding oil to the engine is one example because, again you're maintaining the vehicle, not just looking or having to repair an actual problem.

Inspection itself goes by a visual look at the condition of things, it can also include a few minor tests too such as an emissions sniffer test. This means the condition of the vehice is evaluated and in some instances such as a sniffer test, it's being evaluated to see if it meets emission requirements per law where the testing is done. Others such as an inspection of the body for rot are done in some places to determine the condition of the vehicle's structure, mainly for safety purposes. It can even involve temporary removal of a part or parts to inspect something, but since the part(s) isn't actually being replaced and there was no problem to worry about, it's removed, whatever needs to be is inspected and it's put right back in place.

 

Repair is kind of obvious, in most cases it does involve the replacement of a part or an entire assembly and it's done to repair, not maintain a part of the vehicle. Things like an engine knock caused by a worn/defective main bearing, rebuilding a trans as mentioned above and the like are all repairs and the basics of all that is for everything, including electrics, diesels, gas and LP powered vehicles.
 

14 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

It's like leadeaters transmission goes out. Lost second gear. Takes it to the trans shop and ask for a transmission maintenance and they change the oil and filter instead of rebuilding the transmission because the definition was flawed when the customer asked for maintenance done to the trans

And Shrimpy is correct with this at least, the terminology used matters alot.

--------------------------

With electrics, not much more than an inspection done on a regular schedule is all that's needed in most cases and for EV's made today, that's pretty much it. EV's today use brushless motors which eliminates the issue of brushes and armature wearing out over time.
For an EV, If it goes bad for some reason you then do a repair which in this case would be to simply do a R&R (Remove and Replacement) of the motor.
Now, there could be an inspection related to doing some testing of the motor to ensure it's OK, as in looking for signs of possible failure being imminent but that would be about it. That's probrably true too and makes perfect sense to do on a regular basis.

The only real problems with an EV motor you can have aside from the shaft bearings themselves would be bad/failed windings in the motor due to heat over time or excessive heat period, that CAN be an issue which testing can reveal if caught in time.
If not it will make itself known quickly.

These aren't like the drive motors in an industrial electric that have brushes, those motors DO have a maintenance requirement related to the brushes and armature of the motor.
In this case you for the most part inspect the brushes and the condition of the motor armature. You use a soft file-like tool to make sure the armature is still flat and if the brushes are worn to a certain point, replace them. Since the brushes are what's called a wearable/consumable part it's most referred to as maintenance but could be called repair too if it starts causing problems with the actual operation of the machine, that being the dividing line between the two terms.

I've done work in the field, in the shop and whatever else you can think of on industrial lifts (Forklifts), Bobcats, tractors, and such. I've also done fleet maintenace on these while also doing it on regular gas vehicles that do travel the road. As for electrics, the lifts were mainly electrics, some were LP (Liquid Propane) powered with gas and diesel in the mix.

I've also done actual industrial maintenance such as work on gearboxes, electric motors from 12v all the way up to 600V's 3-phase with a nice load of amps behind it, worked on the conveyor lines, structure, the building structure, HVAC, maintenance and inspection with actual testing (State Certified) of the building's sprinkler system and the water tower with it.......

I've done alot, not everything but enough to know the difference between these terms and by now, I mean around 40 years of doing it too. That's more years of experience than some of you have had life itself.
I'm saying all this because I just want you to know what perspective I speak from.

 

[Montana One-Six]

Another thing everyone should consider is that EV have a very limited range for its lifetime compared to ICE. What I mean by that is you have to change the batteries of an EV every x amount of km (depending on manufacturer its somewhere around the 50 000 - 100 000 km mark). Producing those isn't the most environment friendly and also very expensive. I met someone a little while ago who had an EV smart car and he needed to replace the batteries after ~40 000 km which would have cost him 15 000€ almost as expensive as buying a new car. He didn't and went back to ICE.

On the other hand ICE cars these days can reach 250 000 km on the same engine easily. I know of cars with over 650 000 km with its original engine.

 

Also if you ever have a crash even a minor one you probably need to replace the batteries on an EV. I know a mechanic who works for Mercedes in Germany who told me that Mercedes EVs have a safety feature that when you crash an EV the wires on the batteries will be blown off to avoid unwanted and dangerous discharges. The problem is that this happens in crashes after which your car would be easily fixable but since your batteries need to be changed which are very expensive your car will probably be declared destroyed since it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective. If an ICE would be in the same accident it will live on after no problem.

[suicidalfranco]

16 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

That is now in many countries. Norway for example, where tax on LPG cars make them more expensive. China is another example, where BEV cars cost as little as 3.5K new. Even her in the UK you can get a fully loaded BEV of decent quality for £26K. While some brands do charge a premium, when you take into account fuel costs and maintenance you soon recoup the difference and go into the realms of gain. Here in the last few months, petrol prices have risen very rapidly to a new all time high. At £1.38 per litre it is getting very expensive to drive an ICE car.

Let me check:

Dacia spring (eV):20k

Dacia Stepway (LPG) : 14k

 

Cost of lpg: .60€/kg

Cost of electricity at charging station: .45€/kwh

 

Spring: 350km autonomy

Stepway: 800km autonomy

 

 

I'm a keep buying LPG, EV are just toys for people with over enflated egos

[Distinctly Average]

1 hour ago, suicidalfranco said:

Let me check:

Dacia spring (eV):20k

Dacia Stepway (LPG) : 14k

 

Cost of lpg: .60€/kg

Cost of electricity at charging station: .45€/kwh

 

Spring: 350km autonomy

Stepway: 800km autonomy

 

 

I'm a keep buying LPG, EV are just toys for people with over enflated egos

So you quote the most expensive electricity vs the cheaper end of fuel. How often do you take a drive of 800km? How often do you even go 350km without stopping for a comfort break? Most people charge at home at a cost of 13`-17€ . Then the servicing costs are a lot lower for an EV. Average miles per day in the UK is a paltry 20, though I do substantially more. Even though I do 40K per year due to my job, I never worry about range.

 

UPS have ordered enough vans to replace their fleet here. Why? Because it saves them money, and a lot of it. If a company as penny pinching as that see the advantages then that really does say something.

 

I do agree that car makers are taking a bit of a premium for EVs here in Europe at least (compared to China that is obvious), and that they are still an immature tech. However, we need to change or we are screwed. Petrol, Diesel and Gas prices are predicted to rise very sharply in the coming years, especially the latter. Government policies are dictating that to some extent as they are all increasing taxes. Supply is also on a slippery edge for the usual political reasons. 

[Distinctly Average]

1 hour ago, Montana16 said:

Another thing everyone should consider is that EV have a very limited range for its lifetime compared to ICE. What I mean by that is you have to change the batteries of an EV every x amount of km (depending on manufacturer its somewhere around the 50 000 - 100 000 km mark).
 

 

Sorry, you are incorrect there. The first gen cars were like that, but things have changed. There are plenty of Tesla’s, Toyota hybrids and more that have done 500km+, especially in taxis. The cars may be falling apart, but the batteries live on. You can see that easily with companies offering 7 year warranties now.

1 hour ago, Montana16 said:

 

Producing those isn't the most environment friendly and also very expensive. I met someone a little while ago who had an EV smart car and he needed to replace the batteries after ~40 000 km which would have cost him 15 000€ almost as expensive as buying a new car. He didn't and went back to ICE.

That really has changed. See above. Also, when the batteries do reach the end of their usefulness in a car, they continue to be used in other environments. Is is called second life and all the car makers are doing it as there is a lot of money to be made. For instance, a used battery can then be put in a fast charger station. They get trickle charged then dump their load on demand. Many used EV batteries end up this way. Many are predicted to last 30years. And when they are done over 90% can and does get recycled. If you burn fuel it is gone.

1 hour ago, Montana16 said:

On the other hand ICE cars these days can reach 250 000 km on the same engine easily. I know of cars with over 650 000 km with its original engine.

 

Also if you ever have a crash even a minor one you probably need to replace the batteries on an EV. I know a mechanic who works for Mercedes in Germany who told me that Mercedes EVs have a safety feature that when you crash an EV the wires on the batteries will be blown off to avoid unwanted and dangerous discharges. The problem is that this happens in crashes after which your car would be easily fixable but since your batteries need to be changed which are very expensive your car will probably be declared destroyed since it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective. If an ICE would be in the same accident it will live on after no problem.

Not quite true. VAG for instance have a module that in a crash locks out the EV battery. Only VAG have these and they will not sell end users one. If you have a crash, then VAG authorised garages will inspect your car and if deemed safe will put in a new module. 
 

Not all brands do this, it is a safety precaution but goes against right to repair as you need the OEM to inspect. There are documented ways around this but some, not all, insurance companies insist on an inspection depending on the level of damage.

 

As for ICE cars, one brand insist you have a whole new engine and fuel system if you accidentally put a tiny amount of the wrong fuel in even if you never start the engine. So what brands do sometimes makes no sense.

[Mihle]

2 hours ago, Montana16 said:

Another thing everyone should consider is that EV have a very limited range for its lifetime compared to ICE. What I mean by that is you have to change the batteries of an EV every x amount of km (depending on manufacturer its somewhere around the 50 000 - 100 000 km mark). Producing those isn't the most environment friendly and also very expensive. I met someone a little while ago who had an EV smart car and he needed to replace the batteries after ~40 000 km which would have cost him 15 000€ almost as expensive as buying a new car. He didn't and went back to ICE.

On the other hand ICE cars these days can reach 250 000 km on the same engine easily. I know of cars with over 650 000 km with its original engine.

 

Also if you ever have a crash even a minor one you probably need to replace the batteries on an EV. I know a mechanic who works for Mercedes in Germany who told me that Mercedes EVs have a safety feature that when you crash an EV the wires on the batteries will be blown off to avoid unwanted and dangerous discharges. The problem is that this happens in crashes after which your car would be easily fixable but since your batteries need to be changed which are very expensive your car will probably be declared destroyed since it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective. If an ICE would be in the same accident it will live on after no problem.

You can't compare old electric cars with new ones today. There are Tesla's that have driven 300k km and have 75%+ capacity left.

 

Changing battery every 50-100k km is BS with newer electric cars, if it doesn't get physical damaged. Might be true with hybrids tho, if it's used in a way that uses the battery a lot.

 

Tho batteries in electric cars 15 years ago or whatever had batteries that wore faster.

 

How many km needed to wear a battery is directly connected with how big the battery is tho.

 

Plenty of EVs now have 6-8 year and 150k+ km warranties on their batteries.

 

Even if an ICE reach 300k km, at that point there have probably been quite a bit of parts changed and only get worse.

[Senzelian]

4 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Most people that would get an EV will charge it at home most of the time.

The people that fill up their diesel/petrol powered cars on the Autobahn, are already doing it because they have to, not because they want to. People would instead use gas stations near towns to fill up, because of cheaper prices. Charging at home won't matter in this case.

 

On top of that, we don't need to even reach 100% electrification to overload Europes electric network as it is. We wouldn't even be able to handle 25% electrification as of right now. And a few solar panels won't cut it. Fusion power first, then electric cars.

[Beerzerker]

2 hours ago, Mihle said:

Even if an ICE reach 300k km, at that point there have probably been quite a bit of parts changed and only get worse.

I'm sorry but that's a gross exaggeration of how it is.
I know you said "Probrably" but as expressed above, that does suggest it's more often than it really is.

300,000 km equals 186,411 miles and we can at least get that in most cases with no major breakdowns.

There will be instances of course it happens but so far, so good here and that's not just in my case, 250,000 miles is not a big deal to get in the same manner. 
My old 91 S10 has around 280,000 miles/450616 km, only major thing it's ever had done was the clutch which in some cases not a huge deal to replace, depending on the vehicle of course. In the case of mine it's a headache, being it's a 4x4 with the 4.3ltr V6 in it so there isn't alot of room to do much, even a simple tuneup can be a chore with it but that's how it is and knew that when I first got it.
However I've had it since Jan 97 so that tells you how long I've had it and I only have to do tuneups every 100,000 miles on it so that's not a huge obstacle anyway.
The engine in mine to this day still runs fine, plenty of power and it just goes on like always.

 

And it's not the only one, my 09 Versa itself is close to 168,000 miles/270369 km and still runs good, doesn't use oil, runs like a top and hasn't had any major issues at all aside from the little module in the passenger door that controls the back hatch but that in itself doesn't affect how far it could go.
BTW that was a simple 40 minute fix from start to finish.

Diesels themselves can go much further as a matter of record and fact in the same manner as long as proper maintenance is done along the way.... But then again that's with all of them, even EV's.

Now I will say in all fairness one's driving situation will affect this longevity too, that being a real factor with anything, even EV vehicles are subject to it. City driving can shorten the life span of one with all the stop and go driving you have to do, in areas where you can go without having to stop and go so much it's much better.
 

[Distinctly Average]

3 hours ago, Senzelian said:

On top of that, we don't need to even reach 100% electrification to overload Europes electric network as it is. We wouldn't even be able to handle 25% electrification as of right now. And a few solar panels won't cut it. Fusion power first, then electric cars.

Totally incorrect. All of the European power grids are hoping EV take up with car to grid arrives sooner rather than later. Some countries already have it. It helps them balance the grid requiring less on peak demand power stations which are usually gas plants these days. Norway now has 54% of cares are EV, and there is no issue. They have less power stations now compared to 10 years ago. Some cities in China, the really big ones, the same has happened. All busses and taxis there as well as almost all new cars are EV and they can now balance their grids without the need for their old massive coal and gas plants. Pollution in those cities has dropped substantially, from daily smog to clear air in just a few years is quite impressive.

[Distinctly Average]

3 hours ago, Senzelian said:

The people that fill up their diesel/petrol powered cars on the Autobahn, are already doing it because they have to, not because they want to. People would instead use gas stations near towns to fill up, because of cheaper prices. Charging at home won't matter in this case.

 

 

Incorrect again. If you charge at home it will cost from 0€ if you have solar or wind energy up to the going rate per unit. At night that can be as low as 0.04€ up to 0.16€. Most people with EVs will join charging organisations so they pay a fixed rate wherever they charge on that network. For instance, Tesla owners can charge at 0.25€ anywhere on the supercharger network. Slightly more but in most cases people still charge at home. The owner of one of the big charger networks here stated that the average spend on their network, mostly on motorways, was under £10. Mainly topping up while they take a comfort break and grab a drink, on top of that, many local authorities as well as supermarkets offer free charging.

[8tg]

On 8/2/2021 at 4:27 PM, 19_blackie_73 said:

Oh well compared to american cars almost everything is less carbon emitting

I still dont get my head around how the gas mileage of the usual cars im the us is for anyone acceptable...

Because even during global recessions America doesn’t have to care too much about fuel. 
Even in 2007/2008 when gas was 5$ USD a gallon people were still buying $40K GMC Yukon Denali XL’s which got like a combined 16mpg.

Because it didn’t matter.

 

I drive a flex fuel Impala and that was the option if you cared about fuel cost, not necessarily fuel economy. With E85 get 22.5mpg on average in a 3900lb full-size sedan like the chad I am.

 

[19_blackie_73]

3 minutes ago, 8tg said:

Because even during global recessions America doesn’t have to care too much about fuel. 
Even in 2007/2008 when gas was 5$ USD a gallon people were still buying $40K GMC Yukon Denali XL’s which got like a combined 16mpg.

Because it didn’t matter.

 

I drive a flex fuel Impala and that was the option if you cared about fuel cost, not necessarily fuel economy. With E85 get 22.5mpg on average in a 3900lb full-size sedan like the chad I am.

 

Thats what I still cant get my head around - driving a mazda with somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40-50mpg and thats sort of okayish here in europe

22-23mpg are considered already pretty bad, and everything below that is somwhat hard to find

And even if gas was cheap, I rather spend that money somewhere else than blow it through the pipe. And dont get me wrong, I love a V8 or V12… but not as a daily driver because of that reason

And thats why I stand by my point, its not hard to blow less co2 into the atmosphere with electric vehicles over the cycle compared to the us gas car market

[Senzelian]

57 minutes ago, Distinctly Average said:

If you charge at home it will cost from 0€ if you have solar or wind energy up to the going rate per unit.

This point was never about cost. Read again.

 

1 hour ago, Distinctly Average said:

All of the European power grids are hoping EV take up with car to grid arrives sooner rather than later.

Definitely not. Wasn't long ago the grid almost crashed.

Nuclear power plants are being demolished at the same time as we increase the load.

[leadeater]

16 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

You've heard the term "20 point inspection" right? Yes that's a completely separate charge a lot of oil service companies advertise as free so they can inspect a vehicle and make money on repairs.

And that is probably just a thing in your country, those oil changer company just aren't a thing here.

 

Here we have a legally required Warrant of Fitness, these are done every year. This is separate from taking your car in for a yearly maintenance service.

 

https://www.aa.co.nz/cars/owning-a-car/licensing-safety-fees/warrant-of-fitness-wof/

https://vehicleinspection.nzta.govt.nz/virms/in-service-wof-and-cof

https://www.aa.co.nz/cars/owning-a-car/maintenance/service-your-car-with-aa-auto-centre/our-services-at-a-glance/

 

As above in the actual service anything that fails and needs to be repaired as far as literally any normal person taking their car in for the yearly service would say that repair is car maintenance.

 

Additionally go through the service list and cross off everything that isn't applicable to a BEV vehicle, it's not a lot is it? And for anything like "Alternator" you can replace that with 12v utility charger from the main battery to the 12v battery (common fault on older Leaf's).

 

Any normal person not trying to have this argument would say any and all repairs carried out under their yearly service is vehicle maintenance, because that's just what it is. You're only trying to make this separation to try and prove BEV cost less to maintain, as a BEV owner this narrative is total bunk.

 

Maintenance is a tree structure , Inspection and Repair come under that tree, under the title of Maintenance. Anything you do to a vehicle to keep it operational is maintenance.

 

Quote

Auto maintenance describes the act of inspecting or testing the condition of car subsystems and servicing or replacing parts and fluids. Regular maintenance is critical to ensure the safety, reliability, drivability, comfort and longevity of a car. During preventive maintenance, a number of parts are replaced to avoid major damage or for safety reasons, e.g. timing belt replacement.

 

Quote

Vehicle Maintenance maintenance" ] means vehicle and equipment rehabilitation, mechanical repairs, painting, fueling, and lubrication.

 

I don't know if it's just a your country thing but here maintenance is very well understood to include repairs and replacements.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

As above in the actual service anything that fails and needs to be repaired as far as literally any more person taking their car in for the yearly service would say that repair is car maintenance.

 

Yes our country.....Defines the difference between repairs and maintenance. 

 

Inspection is maintenance 

Repair is remove and replace.

Changing engine oil is maintenance .... to prevent needing repairs. 

Some parts are "serviceable" 

Some parts are not.

Serviceable parts can be maintained.

Non serviceable parts cannot be maintained. This is remove and replace.

 

When I purchased my last vehicle used from a dealer, I had 2 piles of work orders. 

Maintenance work orders.

and 

Repair work orders.

 

Believe it or not, I'll charge you separate for diagnostics. Just to pull codes, 100 bucks.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Believe it or not, I'll charge you separate for diagnostics. Just to pull codes, 100 bucks.

It's never been a belief issue whether or not you or anyone else, where you are or I am, would charge for that. It's the pulling out of things that if you go and look at anything that talks about vehicle maintenance describes and includes repairs like I said.

 

If I take my car in for a service and the brake pads are worn I'll get a charge for it, parts and labor are not free. It's still vehicle maintenance 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's never been a belief issue whether or not you or anyone else, where you are or I am, would charge for that. It's the pulling out of things that if you go and look at anything that talks about vehicle maintenance describes and includes repairs like I said.

 

If I take my car in for a service and the brake pads are worse I'll get a charge for it, parts are not free. It's still vehicle maintenance 

Because you maintained a serviceable part such as the brakes defines an engine's maintenance schedule which from the get go was GAS ENGINE  vs ELECTRIC ENGINE ...

To now picking out serviceable parts on an entire vehicle.... which if you'd been reading any responses back and forth with my self from previous pages.....

Like the cooling system...

Battery cables...

Which differ greatly between GasV and EVs where the EV you the consumer do nothing to maintain battery cables. As laughable as it may sound to die messing with that system, most of the vehicle is not designed for average home owners to maintain everything.

 

So wheel bearings that you once serviced in the 1960's are now sealed non serviceable wheel Hubs today which is a remove and replace part. It's no longer serviceable.

 

I do get what you are trying to portray, saying I maintained my car by replacing non serviceable parts = I kept my car well maintained. 

 

Where I would have a different approach in that conversation asking about maintenance AND repairs. Maintenance being your oil changes and filters and the repairs being the transmission was rebuilt. But before I rebuilt that transmission, we maintained it with regular fluid and filter changes and it lasted 430,000 kilometers. 

 

Very much understand your point of view. 

 

Like saying Flywheel and another tech calls it a flex plate. Which tech is correct? ..... depends on the engine it was removed from and if the transmission is automatic or not.  

 

But no. In the automotive and diesel industry (at least in USA) we do separate by definition repairs and maintenance. 

 

I thought for about a good hour while I polished a crankshaft yesterday, 8 hours cleaning pistons the day before about my maintenance of this 5.3L engine if it was lack of maintenance that caused the need for oil consumption.

It had dawned on me the vehicle is equipped with cylinder cut out at highway speeds. where 4 cylinders stop firing. This causes excessive wear to the piston rings from carbon build up and worn valve guides. The oil was changed regularly, but design flaw had the motor needing a rebuild in 116 thousand miles. 5K in labor.

 

TLDR?

No, an engine rebuild is not a major maintenance, it's a major repair.

[Distinctly Average]

8 hours ago, Senzelian said:

This point was never about cost. Read again.

 

Definitely not. Wasn't long ago the grid almost crashed.

Nuclear power plants are being demolished at the same time as we increase the load.

It is very easy to actually look at the facts, the interviews online with the various bosses of the power systems. There are plenty and they all say the same. Norway has already proven the point, Denmark are well on the way too. Peak demand is where EVs with V2G will really help the grid. Peak demand is where countries struggle, not base demand.