In the US, life cycle emissions for EVs are 60-68% lower than gasoline.

[mr moose]

Just now, ShrimpBrime said:

Checking something on a visual inspection you can call maintenance.

 

Replacement of a worn sealed wheel hub, Which btw has no maintenance of it's own until failure, is a repair.

 

I wonder how many guys at Jiffy Lube that did a regular oil change maintenance service actually lifted your vehicle to check a wheel hub. I bet probably none.

 

You claimed the whole car was maintenance free for 2 years,  Checking stuff and replacing when necessary or at a timed interval is maintenance.   And the fact still remains no electric car is immune from maintenance regardless what the marketing material tells you. 

[Guest]

Just now, mr moose said:

 

You claimed the whole car was maintenance free for 2 years,  Checking stuff and replacing when necessary or at a timed interval is maintenance.   And the fact still remains no electric car is immune from maintenance regardless what the marketing material tells you. 

It's maintenance free. You check nothing. It goes to a certified technician for inspection every 2 years. wow. Consumer does absolutely nothing. Except maybe change the cabin filter if your really mechanically inclined to do so, every 2 - 3 years lol. 

 

Electric engine = no maintenance.

Gas engine = must maintain.

 

Tell me. When was the last time you serviced your electric drill. never. sealed bearings and everything. 

electric motor in a car turns a wheel very similar to a drill bit. Same concept.

 

Maintenance free engine. 

Maintenance free drive train. You don't check a sealed unit.

 

Wiper juice and a bunch of parts that wear and get repaired.

 

But it's really about the engine. 

 

Oil only to produce electricity for the vehicle.

or

Oil for maintenance (of several fluid types) in gas engines.

[Blademaster91]

14 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

check the battery before it explodes and starts another fire!

Well software and such, is not making EV's better but without that it should be a lot better than a normal car using fluids.

More so if you buy certain expensive EV cars, that will give you a problem after another.

Well batteries can be a concern, but battery fires aren't that common, the only risk is a car accident, and fire fighters can't just spray water onto a lithium battery fire.

Software and control modules is an issue, some modern ICE vehicles have lots of control modules, one for each seat, and power windows, EV's have even more control modules, if the in dash display fails in a Telsa you can't drive the vehicle because so many of the vehicle functions are on the screen instead of being dedicated buttons, so I wouldn't want to keep an EV past the warranty as replacing parts can get expensive.

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

You claimed the whole car was maintenance free for 2 years,  Checking stuff and replacing when necessary or at a timed interval is maintenance.   And the fact still remains no electric car is immune from maintenance regardless what the marketing material tells you. 

Yeah what Tesla claims seems more like marketing that anything else IMO, and I definately wouldn't trust their "maintenance free" claims when those cars can have questionable build quality, like brakes wearing out quickly, bumpers falling off, or door and glass seals leaking.

But I would still choose doing some basic maintenance over having to take the car to an approved Tesla mechanic, I really don't like how Tesla treats their vehicles like a smartphone.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Blademaster91

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, ShrimpBrime said:

It's maintenance free. You check nothing. It goes to a certified technician for inspection every 2 years. wow. Consumer does absolutely nothing. Except maybe change the cabin filter if your really mechanically inclined to do so, every 2 - 3 years lol. 

 

Electric engine = no maintenance.

Gas engine = must maintain.

 

Tell me. When was the last time you serviced your electric drill. never. sealed bearings and everything. 

electric motor in a car turns a wheel very similar to a drill bit. Same concept.

 

Maintenance free engine. 

Maintenance free drive train. You don't check a sealed unit.

 

Wiper juice and a bunch of parts that wear and get repaired.

 

But it's really about the engine. 

 

Oil only to produce electricity for the vehicle.

or

Oil for maintenance (of several fluid types) in gas engines.

 

If it's only about the engine (because that's really all you can call maintenance free (by comparison to any other vehicle), then your claims should state that, not make the claims you "never check a single thing".  When you do this you are making absolute statements that literally claim you NEVER have to check anything.    And by doing this you are handing the naysayers fuel to further argue against the narrative.    

 

 

[CarlBar]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

If it's only about the engine (because that's really all you can call maintenance free (by comparison to any other vehicle), then your claims should state that, not make the claims you "never check a single thing".  When you do this you are making absolute statements that literally claim you NEVER have to check anything.    And by doing this you are handing the naysayers fuel to further argue against the narrative.    

 

 

 

This feels like an argument over the definition of maintenance. Really irregular long term things are begin excluded here as maintenance, (there's some sense to it, if you replace your vehicle often enough or don't put a lot of wear on it it's quite possible you'll never have to touch anything but consumables on it before you replace it, and the bulk of those in an ICE car are in the engine. Wiper fluid, Brake Fluid, and Tire Pressure being he main non-engine ones that come to mind. And brake fluid may not be a thing on EV's depending on how things evolve).

 

Definitely open for debate how you classify them, but also dependent on use case, someone who put's in enough miles a year is going to have to watch out for more things, (like the tires themselves going bald for a quick and easy example).

 

 

[wanderingfool2]

3 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Tell me. When was the last time you serviced your electric drill. never. sealed bearings and everything. 

electric motor in a car turns a wheel very similar to a drill bit. Same concept.

Well drills I have never specifically...but tables saws and routers yes.  Cleaning and keeping it oiled is a key maintenance for those to last a long time.

 

3 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

But it's really about the engine. 

 

Oil only to produce electricity for the vehicle.

or

Oil for maintenance (of several fluid types) in gas engines.

That's like shifting the goal posts really.  When people talk about car maintenance, they aren't just talking about the engine and it really creates the wrong narrative when you have people touting how it's "maintenance free" and then still being told it needs to come in yearly for servicing and maintenance.  Remember, the tires on EV's need more frequent rotations due to heavier wear due to weight...also the brake calipers need greasing every 12 months (to prevent issues, thus by definition it's maintenance).

 

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

like brakes wearing out quickly, bumpers falling off, or door and glass seals leaking

Well the brake issue (from my understanding) is happening mostly because the brakes dont get used and so they actually degrade quicker (a bit ironic actually)...we'll see if that is eventually worked around with different chemistries.

The bumper issue appears to be that when driving through a larger puddle the water was getting trapped and thus pulled off (which was fixed in 2019).

There are fit and finish issues, but with the giga casting that should actually be mostly eliminated (it will just take a year or two to get those presses running everywhere...as they have to take down production lines)

I'm not trying to defend them, but largely speaking all vehicles by all manufacturers have issues...one could nit-pick about all types of vehicles.

 

[Toyota's had their rust issues, GM knowningly had a key ignition issue that they literally cost people lives to save a few cents, VW had their dieselgate, Chrysler had their transmission issue that was linked to deaths]

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

This feels like an argument over the definition of maintenance.

 

 

 

 

The original statement I responded to was not about maintenance but that you didn't need to "check anything" on an EV for 2 years.   Which I only pointed out was erroneous and dangerous advice.  Besides, arguing what defines maintenance really is just splitting hairs, we already have all the data and can apply that to specific end uses to know whether or not an EV is suitable.  Arguing absolutes like they apply to everyone equally is pointless.

[atxcyclist]

4 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

It's maintenance free. You check nothing. It goes to a certified technician for inspection every 2 years. wow. Consumer does absolutely nothing. Except maybe change the cabin filter if your really mechanically inclined to do so, every 2 - 3 years lol. 

 

Electric engine = no maintenance.

Gas engine = must maintain.

 

Tell me. When was the last time you serviced your electric drill. never. sealed bearings and everything. 

electric motor in a car turns a wheel very similar to a drill bit. Same concept.

 

Maintenance free engine. 

Maintenance free drive train. You don't check a sealed unit.

 

Wiper juice and a bunch of parts that wear and get repaired.

 

But it's really about the engine. 

 

Oil only to produce electricity for the vehicle.

or

Oil for maintenance (of several fluid types) in gas engines.

I serviced an electric drill a few months back, took some solvent to the commutator to clean the carbon fouling off. I've done the same thing to starters in cars many times over the years, cleaning and re-lubricating them instead of replacing one that sticks or fails to engage. Absolutely nothing with moving parts and friction is completely maintenance-free. Even the hinge pins on the doors in your house should be cleaned and lubricated occasionally, people just rarely do it.

 

The Tesla maintenance shop is not far from my house. If it were only dealing with tires, washer fluid, and brake pads every 40k miles, why would Tesla need a 20 bay shop? It's because the motor gearboxes/axles need service, the battery cooling systems need service, even the software/firmware in the chassis management systems need to be updated occasionally. And they also need repairs, more than people seem to realize that share your your mindset. You don't just buy a Tesla and only put tires on it for hundreds of thousands of miles, there are lots of systems on any car outside of the engine and transmission that need service, and that is no different on a Tesla or other EVs.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

When you do this you are making absolute statements that literally claim you NEVER have to check anything.

Our yearly legally required warranty of fitness begs to differ anyway. Try going two years without a WOF and roll that dice of a fine and maybe the car getting impounded/stickered.

[suicidalfranco]

Still going to buy that LPG car.

Wake me up when BEV won't cost twice as much.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Our yearly legally required warranty of fitness begs to differ anyway. Try going two years without a WOF and roll that dice of a fine and maybe the car getting impounded/stickered.

 

They have those in NSW, not where I live (fortunately).  But besides that, anyone who doesn't keep an eye on the integral safety aspects of their car is asking for trouble.

 

 

[Mihle]

In Norway, 54% of new cars was electric

 

Also, no link, but no, electric cars is not more likely to burn than other cars. It's just that because it's new and hot, it's mentioned in media more often. A news article about a electric car burning get more clicks than a diesel/petrol car burning.

[mr moose]

Just posting this for anyone who is interested,  not long and well worth the look.

 

 

[Sauron]

8 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Tell me. When was the last time you serviced your electric drill. never. sealed bearings and everything. 

electric motor in a car turns a wheel very similar to a drill bit. Same concept.

I work with machines full of electric motors and I assure you, they're far from maintenance free. A drill rarely requires maintenance because it's not really moving much of a load and there is almost nothing between the motor and the "business" end. A car is a much more complex affair. Even if the motor itself never has any problems (which is no guarantee as improper or heavy use can and will damage an electric motor), the rest of the mechanical assembly very well might.

 

They have fewer moving parts than an internal combustion vehicle but that doesn't mean there's no maintenance requirement.

[Wh0_Am_1]

On 8/2/2021 at 2:50 PM, Monkey Dust said:

It makes sense for a lot of commercial vehicles. BEV is probably the way private cars will go, but the big stuff, especially anything that has to cover 100s of miles a day, probably going to be hydrogen.

Not necessarily if Porsche succeeds in their new synthetic fuel plant in Chile.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

I work with machines full of electric motors and I assure you, they're far from maintenance free. A drill rarely requires maintenance because it's not really moving much of a load and there is almost nothing between the motor and the "business" end. A car is a much more complex affair. Even if the motor itself never has any problems (which is no guarantee as improper or heavy use can and will damage an electric motor), the rest of the mechanical assembly very well might.

 

They have fewer moving parts than an internal combustion vehicle but that doesn't mean there's no maintenance requirement.

Why are you joining the stupidity side of the argument. All you guys know what I'm talking about but insist on stretching standard vehicle maintenance far into and beyond the reality of what standard vehicle maintenance is. 

 

ICE vs EV

 

Please tell me where in the service manual does it say you must maintain the electric motor of an electric vehicle. 

 

Like the electric window motors. Many of these last beyond the life of ICE vehicle. WITHOUT MAINTENANCE. 

 

lol. 

 

I digress. I've been a diesel technician for over 20 years now. I've never seen an electric motor in the diesel or automotive industry that needed standard general gas engine maintenance. 

[Sauron]

41 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Like the electric window motors. Many of these last beyond the life of ICE vehicle. WITHOUT MAINTENANCE. 

Electric windows break all the time, lmao.

42 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I digress. I've been a diesel technician for over 20 years now. I've never seen an electric motor in the diesel or automotive industry that needed standard general gas engine maintenance. 

If you only count specialized motor repair as "maintenance", sure. It's just a pretty irrelevant standard for most people, for instance I've only ever needed that kind of intervention once. Realistically people directly handle two kinds of maintenance on their cars: inflating/changing tires and replacing fluids. Tires are obviously the same on an EV; you do need less oil for an EV, though some of the mechanical assembly probably still requires lubrication, but you still need to occasionally refill the window cleaning water.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Electric windows break all the time,

There is no MAINTENANCE for window motors.

 

A part that breaks and gets repaired is a repair.... again....

 

NOT ENGINE MAINTENANCE which is what the topic is about.

 

There is NO MAINTENANCE PROCEEDURE FOR ELECTRIC ENGINES PERIOD.

 

INSPECTION (visual) is maintenance. The repair is still a repair. 

 

You don't maintain a timing chain. It breaks, it gets replaced. 

The engine oil and filter is general maintenance.

 

Again. You guys are reaching beyond and haven't an understanding the difference between a visual inspection (maintenance) and repair of worn parts. That's 2 different things and billed separately as well.

 

 

Electric engine has no maintenance proceedure period. Doesn't matter how far you guys want to reach into what is actually maintenance or not.

 

I'm done. You can quote me, but I have no further responses at this time.

 

Here's a rebuild. This is not engine maintenance. Lol. It's a rebuild. 

 

[Quackers101]

11 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

A part that breaks and gets repaired is a repair.... again....

NOT ENGINE MAINTENANCE which is what the topic is about.

There is NO MAINTENANCE PROCEEDURE FOR ELECTRIC ENGINES PERIOD.

INSPECTION (visual) is maintenance. The repair is still a repair. 

 

You don't maintain a timing chain. It breaks, it gets replaced. 

The engine oil and filter is general maintenance.

 

Again. You guys are reaching beyond and haven't an understanding the difference between a visual inspection (maintenance) and repair of worn parts. That's 2 different things and billed separately as well.

 

Electric engine has no maintenance proceedure period. Doesn't matter how far you guys want to reach into what is actually maintenance or not.

no, its just what you want to define as being maintenance...

Also never mind weather resistance and electrical systems and water proofing.

And are you only focusing on the engine now? like wtf?

Quote

The technical meaning of maintenance involves functional checks, servicing, repairing or replacing of necessary devices, equipment, machinery, building infrastructure, and supporting utilities.

 

[Kid.Lazer]

4 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I've been a diesel technician for over 20 years now.

Let me get this straight, you're basing your knowledge of diesel engines and the fact that you've never worked on an electric motor to claim they are maintenance free? Except being a diesel technician means they wouldn't bring it to you anyway. So...

 

Shit breaks, ICE or EV. Deal with it. Just because the manufacturer doesn't call for maintenance, doesn't mean it doesn't need it. That's like saying an iPhone is maintenance free because Apple said so. Just use it until it breaks and replace it, right? There, it's magically maintenance-free!

 

And if credentials seemingly matter, I've been in the racing industry for 30 years.

 

And for the love of all things decent, a Gasoline (or other fueled) engine is an engine; an electric motor is a motor. Please everyone stop mixing those terms. It's not an electric engine...

[leadeater]

7 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Please tell me where in the service manual does it say you must maintain the electric motor of an electric vehicle. 

I'm sorry but the only engine maintenance that's ever been done on my car is oil changes and air filter so if the argument is only drive-train vs drive-train then there is hardly any difference at all.

 

I've owned that vehicle since 25,000 KMs and it's now just on 100,000 KMs, plenty of chance during that time for it to have needed more but it simply has not, not even spark plugs.

 

4 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

A part that breaks and gets repaired is a repair.... again....

Anything that you repair on a car is literally performing maintenance on the vehicle....

 

4 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

visual inspection (maintenance) and repair of worn parts. That's 2 different things and billed separately as well.

But it just isn't. I'd also be extremely annoyed if I was paying for maintenance service and the only things being done were visual inspections, I'd be asking for my money back.

 

Even if one day my engine decides to throw a piston through the block and I have to get the engine replaced that's still vehicle maintenance.

[Distinctly Average]

On 8/3/2021 at 8:41 PM, poochyena said:

so no, no one is planning to ban gasoline cars. Europeans governments are not banning ICE cars by 2030.

Yes and no. Some cities are planning on banning ICE cars in certain areas. Some cities are introducing or have already introduced fees for ICE cars and the sale of ICE cars will be banned, including hybrids. In effect, though maybe not outright, they will be banned. There will come a time in the not too distant future where people driving ICE cars will be looked at the same way we look at people trying to smoke in your local pub. We will wonder why we ever carried around many litres of highly flammable liquid, using it to create thousands of explosions per minute while slipping our polluting gasses and particulates that can ruin our planet and potentially kill us.

[Distinctly Average]

14 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Still going to buy that LPG car.

Wake me up when BEV won't cost twice as much.

That is now in many countries. Norway for example, where tax on LPG cars make them more expensive. China is another example, where BEV cars cost as little as 3.5K new. Even her in the UK you can get a fully loaded BEV of decent quality for £26K. While some brands do charge a premium, when you take into account fuel costs and maintenance you soon recoup the difference and go into the realms of gain. Here in the last few months, petrol prices have risen very rapidly to a new all time high. At £1.38 per litre it is getting very expensive to drive an ICE car.

[IkeaGnome]

This will be a little bit long winded with lots of pictures. Maintenance=/=repairs. I'll attach a 45 day PM sheet (preventative maintenance) that we use for pickups out here at the mine. Notice none of this stuff is repairs. Maintenance finds the issues that you fix after with repairs. I'll also attach part of our work order creation. 12. Preventative maintenance is inspections and services. 14 is repairs.

Spoiler

The whole service/maintenance/repairs argument makes sense. That being said. You are doing a service on a car or piece of equipment when you are doing the maintenance. Repairs are the actual fixes to what you find during the maintenance. 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, IkeaGnome said:

Repairs are the actual fixes to what you find during the maintenance. 

That's still splitting needless hairs, repairs is a sub more descriptive act within the overarching act of maintenance. A repair is a repair yes, inspection is inspection yes, all inside the overall act of maintenance. And there certainly is a difference between preventative maintenance but ultimately none of these make any difference to the whole ICE vs BEV maintenance comparisons.

 

As an owner of a Nissan Leaf and a Nissan 370GT the maintenance of both is near as much the same it's irrelevant. The biggest benefit, and why I got the Leaf, is fuel cost. Simple as that, everything else is such a small difference it doesn't matter.

 

Now of course there are other differences which I am discounting because it's not a difference between ICE and BEV and that's that my 370GT uses Bridgestone RE050A tyres at ~$500 NZD each where the Leaf, probably less than half but I don't know because I've yet to replace them. My 370GT goes through tyres exceedingly faster than my Leaf so that's another not universal debunk on BEV cars needing tyre changes faster because of weight.

 

Maintenance benefits of BEV is greatly oversold, fuel now that is true.