Report: Intel Pushing ATX12VO Power Connector for 12th Gen Alder Lake CPUs

[AlfaProto]

I hope Intel finds an elegant solution, rather than putting the 12V > 3.3/5V rail for the peripherals like SSD, HDD, ODD, or addons on the motherboard. That's pretty inelegant solution.

 

I imagine that the 12V > 3.3/5V downstepper is on a separate small box which users can interchange--like the size of an SSD, but slightly larger and thicker. I think it does need a heatsink only, because 12V > 3.3/5V is a more efficient downstep versus 120/240V to 3.3/5V.

[Camoxide]

5 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

I think this is a bad idea because mobo manufacturers arent psu manufacturers (usually) and they're going to mess this up. Also even more cables to the motherboard? Thats the opposite of what id like to see.

prediction: failure rate will be high and this will ultimately fail.

 

Also dont expect psus to be interchangeable between manufacturers, they can always squeeze some proprietary bs in, Im sure. 

The power supply will still do the bulk of the heavy lifting, converting 120/240v AC to 12V DC at however many amps it's rated for.

 

The mobo only needs to step the 12V to 5V

They already do something similar, stepping down 12V to 1.2V for the CPU

[Mark Kaine]

5 hours ago, Nathanpete said:

if all the the power conversion is done on the mobo now, do ITX boards have enough spaces where the 24-pin once was (minus the 10-pin) to fit in all that stuff without making significant changes to the layout of their traces and shit? 

 

3 hours ago, AlfaProto said:

I hope Intel finds an elegant solution, rather than putting the 12V > 3.3/5V rail for the peripherals like SSD, HDD, ODD, or addons on the motherboard. That's pretty inelegant solution.

If they use this to make motherboards less messy and more practial - like they could have one standarized "rail" where everything plugs in (except fan headers) then Id be all for it but probably just not gonna happen .

 

10 minutes ago, Camoxide said:

The mobo only needs to step the 12V to 5V

They already do something similar, stepping down 12V to 1.2V for the CPU

Ah yeah, good point, still this probably going to get messy, reminds me of the last innovation intel did, "reverse ATX boards" was it?

[Jito463]

Intel doing more of the same. With LGA, they pushed the bent pin issues onto the motherboard manufacturers, and now they're pushing a new PSU standard onto them, requiring additional work in the design and manufacturing.  I can only see this being popular in the large OEM market (e.g. Dell, HP, etc).  The only part I like is the smaller power connector.  I wouldn't mind if ATX started using that mini 24-pin that Dell has on their boards.

14 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

unless you are someone who never turns off their PC.... (which is pretty dumb)

I never turn of my PC (and no, it's not dumb), but I also don't let my computer idle.  It's always doing something or other, which is why it's never shut down.

[Elisis]

Just now, Jito463 said:

requiring additional work in the design and manufacturing

There's so little extra that's needed with ATX12VO. I get the impression that you're severely underestimating how much buck conversion takes place as is, with regular ATX.

[Quackers101]

So we can try something crazy different and see what works best?

and please seasonic gimme, weird but maybe good PSUs.

Just want to see if there will be a overall change that might happen, instead of fiddling with one area or another.

Spoiler

 

Linus above^

[jagdtigger]

9 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

but I also don't let my computer idle.

Thats a different case, what i was referring to is the case where average joe leaves his pc running for xy reason letting it idle all the time.....

[Bombastinator]

3 hours ago, Jito463 said:

Intel doing more of the same. With LGA, they pushed the bent pin issues onto the motherboard manufacturers, and now they're pushing a new PSU standard onto them, requiring additional work in the design and manufacturing.  I can only see this being popular in the large OEM market (e.g. Dell, HP, etc).  The only part I like is the smaller power connector.  I wouldn't mind if ATX started using that mini 24-pin that Dell has on their boards.

I never turn of my PC (and no, it's not dumb), but I also don't let my computer idle.  It's always doing something or other, which is why it's never shut down.

If they’re as successful as the last time they tried this there’s little to bother about. Prebuilt manufacturers may do a few.  If all motherboards actually used was the 12v rail it would do something.  3.5v just isn’t used much, but USB is making it so 5v is basically a requirement. USB3 stuff with its big wattages is particularly rugged.  Easiest thing to do is make a 12&5v rail and then put the 3.5 on one of them.  This doesn’t change power much it just shifts where the conversion happens.  PSUs could get cheaper, but motherboards would get commensurately more expensive and have shorter lives.  Plus all the things that make PSUs scary suddenly apply to motherboards. A prebuilt maker could just arrange to have no 3.5v and limited 5v stuff.  They can’t have none because USB.  They could make a machine you couldn’t charge your phone on though.  Might be worth it for prebuilt makers that sell to companies.  Just like now.  

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bombastinator

[mariushm]

3.3v is no longer required for SATA in the new standards, so the 12v0 motherboards can have a 4 pin connector for sata power, that carries just 12v and 5v and the ground wires. 

 

Internally, the motherboard will need a dc-dc converter to produce 3.3v for the m.2 connectors and the pci-e slots (up to 10w in each slot) but a 1-2 phase vrm that does 3.3v will take very little space. 

They need 5v vrm for the chipset and usb ports anyway, so the motherboard needs one anyway. They also need it for sata, especially when SSDs now use ONLY 5v and they can burst to 2-3A of current for short periods of time (they can consume up to 5-6w when writing for long periods of time, so that's more than 1A of current on 5v for each sata device)

 

I've said it in several threads in the past already, it's a shame they (or several motherboard and psu manufacturers) didn't implement 20v in a new power supply standard, because it's a thing in usb power delivery. 

Have a 10-12 power connector, 2-3 pairs of 20v , 2 pairs of 12v , power_ok and power_on wires ... 12 wires. 

Then, have additional pci-e 6/8 pin connectors if you need more 12v (for pci-e slots )  or extra 4-6 pin 20v connectors (different connector to prevent confusion) for more power hungry cpus, can be less pins as higher voltage means less current) and extra usb ports.

Now you could have usb ports that can do full power delivery and switch between 5v / 12v / 20v and potentially power a monitor or external something directly from usb connector.

You'd have 2 12v wires in that 12 pin connector (just like in old 24 pin connector) for 12v fans, some 12v for pci-e slots (an ITX board with a single slot or a matx with 2 slots could work with just 2 12v pairs and not need extra connectors) .. motherboards with more slots can add a 6/8 pin pci-e connector on motherboard just like they do with extra power connector on 12v0 connector.

 

 

[AlfaProto]

13 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

 

If they use this to make motherboards less messy and more practial - like they could have one standarized "rail" where everything plugs in (except fan headers) then Id be all for it but probably just not gonna happen .

 

Ah yeah, good point, still this probably going to get messy, reminds me of the last innovation intel did, "reverse ATX boards" was it?

That's why I'm suggesting that they have a separate 12V>3.3/5V step-down box. It's like the Seasonic Connect, but it's modular AND optional--though, it's up to the PSU manufacturer to design them.

[porina]

Interesting going through this thread. We should be more forward looking than backward looking. If we're realistic, SATA power should be on its way out along with the SATA data connector. I don't mean it should disappear overnight, but its use is already diminishing as M.2 gets used more. For those low cost systems where spinning disks still make any sense, powering one drive off the mobo shouldn't prove a problem. With the SATA power out of the way, we can go pure 12V on the PSU.

Before data hoarders jump on the above, I'd consider that a relatively niche case. I would fall into that, but I don't see it as a mainstream requirement to run multiple storage drives for most. NAS like units would cover it for the masses that do need higher capacity at lower than SSD cost.

 

I know there's a lot of accessories like lights, fan controllers and such that use SATA power which will require a path forward. Not sure what it is myself, but 12V only should be sufficient for most of those. We made it from the old molex to SATA power, and we can transition beyond that too even if it means during transition there will be some kind of adapter needed.

[mariushm]

33 minutes ago, porina said:

Before data hoarders jump on the above, I'd consider that a relatively niche case. I would fall into that, but I don't see it as a mainstream requirement to run multiple storage drives for most. NAS like units would cover it for the masses that do need higher capacity at lower than SSD cost.

It would cost less than 1$ (more like less than 50 cents) to add a 12v -> 5v / 3.6v / 3.3v / 2.5v dc-dc converter on the circuit board of a SSD or a hard drive. 

There's nothing stopping manufacturers from doing a 12v only hard drive or SSD today, should they want to. 

 

You could have a dongle or some sort of  12v < -> sata power connector adapter you could plug in each hard drive or SSD, to give it both 5v and 12v.  

 

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, porina said:

Before data hoarders jump on the above, I'd consider that a relatively niche case. I would fall into that, but I don't see it as a mainstream requirement to run multiple storage drives for most. NAS like units would cover it for the masses that do need higher capacity at lower than SSD cost.

Just put people down the path of designed systems and chassis for this that have 12V input in to a backplane that powers all the SATA/U.2/U.3 slots which is how it's done on servers anyway.

 

All that is required is moving 12V closer and closer to the end device until that itself is 12V.

[porina]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Just put people down the path of designed systems and chassis for this that have 12V input in to a backplane that powers all the SATA/U.2/U.3 slots which is how it's done on servers anyway.

 

All that is required is moving 12V closer and closer to the end device until that itself is 12V.

You appeared at just the right time. I was giving the spinning storage some thought but have some gaps which might be in your area. Who are buying spinning disks these days? I'd have to guess that cloud or large server uses would probably make up the majority of that. So the question is, what do they use? If you're an Amazon or Google for example, you probably buy enough drives that, if it makes sense to do so, you could get the manufacturers to optimise it for scale. One of those areas is of course power delivery. Now I'm not so sure about the next part, but it seemed to me that 3.5" drives tended to pull most of their power off 12V rail, whereas 2.5" was more off 5V. What happens in enterprise of today though?

[leadeater]

44 minutes ago, porina said:

Now I'm not so sure about the next part, but it seemed to me that 3.5" drives tended to pull most of their power off 12V rail, whereas 2.5" was more off 5V. What happens in enterprise of today though?

2.5" SAS/NL-SAS/SATA HDDs are dead, while it's possible to buy them still nobody does. 2.5" is pretty well exclusive to SSDs now and 3.5" HDDs, with some usage of 2.5" SSDs in 3.5" trays if you need mixed storage and the chassis only has 3.5" bays.

 

HPE, and others, have two 2.5" bay storage cage at the rear of servers typically near the PSUs. This is where you put 2x 240GB/480GB OS SSDs, M.2 internally is not ideal for fault replacement but is still common too. Then in the front 12 or 24 bays (if it's a two HDD deep chassis) is where you'd put the HDDs.

 

 

Note: Also a 4x 3.5" LFF rear cage option but no idea why one would really want that.

 

 

There's also much larger top load server chassis that take 60+ 3.5" HDDs, similar story with dual 2.5" located somewhere for OS SSDs.

 

 

Throughout servers everything is mostly 12V and then converted as required on an expansion board or backplane.

 

 

 

 

Storage expansion shelves are a little different but the same as well, just a backplane that takes 12V input and then converts that for usage with the storage bays.

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, porina said:

Interesting going through this thread. We should be more forward looking than backward looking. If we're realistic, SATA power should be on its way out along with the SATA data connector. I don't mean it should disappear overnight, but its use is already diminishing as M.2 gets used more. For those low cost systems where spinning disks still make any sense, powering one drive off the mobo shouldn't prove a problem. With the SATA power out of the way, we can go pure 12V on the PSU.

Before data hoarders jump on the above, I'd consider that a relatively niche case. I would fall into that, but I don't see it as a mainstream requirement to run multiple storage drives for most. NAS like units would cover it for the masses that do need higher capacity at lower than SSD cost.

 

I know there's a lot of accessories like lights, fan controllers and such that use SATA power which will require a path forward. Not sure what it is myself, but 12V only should be sufficient for most of those. We made it from the old molex to SATA power, and we can transition beyond that too even if it means during transition there will be some kind of adapter needed.

True, but sata hasn’t been supplanted by m.2 yet.  Sata SSDs are still often cheaper than m.2 drives and the extra speed of m.2 is currently not useful in a lot of situations.  I think sata will eventually go away, but I don’t think it’s time has come quite yet.

[AlfaProto]

2 hours ago, porina said:

Interesting going through this thread. We should be more forward looking than backward looking. If we're realistic, SATA power should be on its way out along with the SATA data connector. I don't mean it should disappear overnight, but its use is already diminishing as M.2 gets used more. For those low cost systems where spinning disks still make any sense, powering one drive off the mobo shouldn't prove a problem. With the SATA power out of the way, we can go pure 12V on the PSU.

Before data hoarders jump on the above, I'd consider that a relatively niche case. I would fall into that, but I don't see it as a mainstream requirement to run multiple storage drives for most. NAS like units would cover it for the masses that do need higher capacity at lower than SSD cost.

 

I know there's a lot of accessories like lights, fan controllers and such that use SATA power which will require a path forward. Not sure what it is myself, but 12V only should be sufficient for most of those. We made it from the old molex to SATA power, and we can transition beyond that too even if it means during transition there will be some kind of adapter needed.

Not everyone can afford a small NAS 4-bay (2-bay is pretty much useless), or a monthly cloud-storage service.

 

Except, the extra peripherals are still using the 3.3V/5V as their input, and a simple adapter wouldn't work because most of them do not have a step-down voltage section or the VRM design is really basic--it's static voltage, not user defined like CPU. You would need to upgrade everything, your PCIE add-on, eRGB controller, eFan controller, etc.

Even if it takes 12V, the step-down voltage is now on the extra peripherals and may add small to huge cost in the design of the PCB.

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

2.5" SAS/NL-SAS/SATA HDDs are dead, while it's possible to buy them still nobody does. 2.5" is pretty well exclusive to SSDs now and 3.5" HDDs, with some usage of 2.5" SSDs in 3.5" trays if you need mixed storage and the chassis only has 3.5" bays.

I was hoping EDSFF would be adopted as the official SSD storage for servers.

[leadeater]

37 minutes ago, StDragon said:

I was hoping EDSFF would be adopted as the official SSD storage for servers.

It's a little early for either that or Samsung's NF1. Both are a little too made to fit within current chassis designs and server layouts.

 

With how many cores per socket and per socket power is changing along with memory technologies and interconnect technologies I can't say for sure either of them is the best path forward.

 

E1.L seems especially impractical for the majority, few really want or need super high density all flash storage and in doing so also limits the PCIe expandability as well. E1.S isn't nearly as bad in that respect and same goes for NF1.

 

The ability to put 2PB-3PB and ever greater in to a single 2U server is really only applicable to the super elite/hyperscalers, and their pricing is and forever will be illogical for those large middle ground customers who are more than large enough to do their own infrastructure. Basically we don't need that much flash storage and we'd never want it in a single point of failure standalone server.

[RedRound2]

On 5/18/2021 at 12:32 PM, jagdtigger said:

Because you wont need cables to get those voltages from the mobo to external devices like storage... /s The cables wont be shorter either.

SATA is on it's way out. And it is generally the case where the PSU wires are longer. And we have real world evidence of this efficieny gain. Why can't you seem to accept the reality then. It doesn't matter what all physcis plays in if the end result is more efficiency in a world where we have to strive to be as efficient as possible

Quote

Which is pretty meaningless unless you are someone who never turns off their PC.... (which is pretty dumb) Plus this is nothing compared to issues caused by low power factor, which is pretty common in consumer space since we pay per watt and not VA.....

Most people dont turn off their PCs. I hardly ever do. My work laptop has been on for straight 7 days and I only shut it down to update Windows. It is just so much easier to for people like me (and many people) who sporatically works and uses their computer. For eample I prefer using my PC with monitor to do asy sort of menial tasks related to internet, so i dont want to keep tunring on and off my computer 20 times a day. Most people with living room PCs generally are in sleep mode more often than not since multiple uses computers

[porina]

4 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

True, but sata hasn’t been supplanted by m.2 yet.  Sata SSDs are still often cheaper than m.2 drives and the extra speed of m.2 is currently not useful in a lot of situations.  I think sata will eventually go away, but I don’t think it’s time has come quite yet.

Note I was suggesting the SATA data connector was on the way out, not SATA interface itself, since it can continue on M.2 SATA drives for those cases where NVMe isn't supported for whatever reason. My thinking is, it isn't difficult to include two or more M.2 slots on all but the smallest mobos, and 2 drives is plenty for most people. Not all people, most.

 

If you were to build a new system, would you pick a SATA drive for anything if you can help it? About the only home scenario I can think of is if you need big 3.5" HDs for data storage. If you have smaller requirements that is easily attainable with SSDs.

 

Pricing we can argue over. It is not static and likely varies by region, but often I see M.2 form factor undercutting 2.5". When Intel first released the QLC 600p for example, it was often the cheapest big brand SSD on the market. 

[Bitter]

Sleep? I let my PCs sleep a lot. Sleep power draw is pretty important! Suspend to disk is pretty fast with a SSD or NVME, I feel like we could almost do away with suspend to RAM and basically let PCs turn off.

[Bombastinator]

8 hours ago, porina said:

Note I was suggesting the SATA data connector was on the way out, not SATA interface itself, since it can continue on M.2 SATA drives for those cases where NVMe isn't supported for whatever reason. My thinking is, it isn't difficult to include two or more M.2 slots on all but the smallest mobos, and 2 drives is plenty for most people. Not all people, most.

 

If you were to build a new system, would you pick a SATA drive for anything if you can help it? About the only home scenario I can think of is if you need big 3.5" HDs for data storage. If you have smaller requirements that is easily attainable with SSDs.

 

Pricing we can argue over. It is not static and likely varies by region, but often I see M.2 form factor undercutting 2.5". When Intel first released the QLC 600p for example, it was often the cheapest big brand SSD on the market. 

Re: most people

 

sure it is possible for most people to give up sata entirely.  I even think it will happen.  The advantages of nvme over SATA are smaller though than the advantages of SATA over IDE though.  I think it will take even longer than the last shift, and I think it will behave similarly.

 

further explanation

Spoiler

 The last time a shift took place was IDE to sata.  Sata when compared to IDE was just usefully better.  IDE had a limitation of what was generally two or four devices. There were problems.  The whole master/slave thing was annoying, and the connection was meaningfully slow for faster HDDs. It still took a lot of time.  I’ve got a 2014 motherboard on a still very useable machine that has a single IDE thing on it.  It ALSO has a single m.2 ( I don’t know if it’s nvme or not)  The issue is nvme IS faster and more convenient, but it’s not USEFULLY faster for the vast majority of people. It very well may become usefully faster, but it hasn’t quite yet. More speed isn’t needed, just a reason to have it. Could a legacy SATA system be put on a motherboard with a few sata ports for the holdovers much like the IDE on my current?  Sure. It could even be done with 12vo.  I strongly suspect SATA will pass away much as IDE did.  I currently would buy a 2.5” sata ssd over a nvme if there was a significant price/gb difference.  Sata actually has (small and situational) convenience advantages over nvme, and the speed advantage of nvme just isn’t useful in a lot of situations.  I would not buy for example a small 2.5” drive.  I anticipate that sata eventually will be useful mostly for storage much as HDDs are used now. HDDs have their situational weird advantages too.  Because of the nature of the difference in HDD/SSD read/write a HDD can last a vastly longer time in some situations. 

This is about 12vo though.  I think the 12vo shift is going to be even harder than SATA to nvme. It makes PSUs cheaper but it makes motherboards more expensive, and it could well wind up a wash. The problem is for ITX boards it’s going to be really hard to put a full featured product out.  There just isn’t enough real estate.  The concept of turning it from two piece to three piece is interesting.  A 12vo PSU that only does AC to clean DC@12v. Then another piece that splits the voltage as needed. I could see for example a modular PSU, where there would be the 12vo section, done as a shorty PSU, then a section that clips onto the back of it making a full length PSU that would behave like a traditional PSU when attached together. It even makes some good sense.  Eventually people would simply stop using the back section, if 12vo motherboards were available, because smaller cases are nice. It may even be that as parts get smaller more can be crammed onto an ITX board and there would be room to have such things in ITX. Or even start doing miniATX boards with only one slot.  Make a bit more room. This coming generation is too early I think.  The one after it very well may not be though. 
 

The solution I think would not be to do 12vo motherboards right now, but to do a 12vo PSU with an a adaptor thing that clips to the back that will deal with a traditional motherboard.  It’s a half-measure, but potentially an easily visible win for the consumer.

 

re: pricing 

if nvme is cheaper there’s no reason to buy SATA.  If they’re even the same there’s no reason to buy sata. There’s no reason to buy small sata either, except perhaps extreme scrimping. Any data drive I buy now I would expect to turn into a storage drive eventually. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bombastinator

[Bitter]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Re: most people

 

sure it is possible for most people to give up sata entirely.  I even think it will happen.  The advantages of nvme over SATA are smaller though than the advantages of SATA over IDE though.  I think it will take even longer than the last shift, and I think it will behave similarly.

 

further explanation

  Reveal hidden contents

 The last time a shift took place was IDE to sata.  Sata when compared to IDE was just usefully better.  IDE had a limitation of what was generally two or four devices. There were problems.  The whole master/slave thing was annoying, and the connection was meaningfully slow for faster HDDs. It still took a lot of time.  I’ve got a 2014 motherboard on a still very useable machine that has a single IDE thing on it.  It ALSO has a single m.2 ( I don’t know if it’s nvme or not)  The issue is nvme IS faster and more convenient, but it’s not USEFULLY faster for the vast majority of people. It very well may become usefully faster, but it hasn’t quite yet. More speed isn’t needed, just a reason to have it. Could a legacy SATA system be put on a motherboard with a few sata ports for the holdovers much like the IDE on my current?  Sure. It could even be done with 12vo.  I strongly suspect SATA will pass away much as IDE did.  I currently would buy a 2.5” sata ssd over a nvme if there was a significant price/gb difference.  Sata actually has (small and situational) convenience advantages over nvme, and the speed advantage of nvme just isn’t useful in a lot of situations.  I would not buy for example a small 2.5” drive.  I anticipate that sata eventually will be useful mostly for storage much as HDDs are used now. HDDs have their situational weird advantages too.  Because of the nature of the difference in HDD/SSD read/write a HDD can last a vastly longer time in some situations. 

This is about 12vo though.  I think the 12vo shift is going to be even harder than SATA to nvme. It makes PSUs cheaper but it makes motherboards more expensive, and it could well wind up a wash. The problem is for ITX boards it’s going to be really hard to put a full featured product out.  There just isn’t enough real estate.  The concept of turning it from two piece to three piece is interesting.  A 12vo PSU that only does AC to clean DC@12v. Then another piece that splits the voltage as needed. I could see for example a modular PSU, where there would be the 12vo section, done as a shorty PSU, then a section that clips onto the back of it making a full length PSU that would behave like a traditional PSU when attached together. It even makes some good sense.  Eventually people would simply stop using the back section, if 12vo motherboards were available, because smaller cases are nice. It may even be that as parts get smaller more can be crammed onto an ITX board and there would be room to have such things in ITX. Or even start doing miniATX boards with only one slot.  Make a bit more room. This coming generation is too early I think.  The one after it very well may not be though. 
 

The solution I think would not be to do 12vo motherboards right now, but to do a 12vo PSU with an a adaptor thing that clips to the back that will deal with a traditional motherboard.  It’s a half-measure, but potentially an easily visible win for the consumer.

Daughter board tho? Not even a new idea. PLENTY of room for VRM parts to run SATA 5V, legacy 3.3V, etc.

[Elisis]

A common complaint people seem to have re: ATX12VO is the idea that with only 12v provided to the motherboard, board real estate becomes more limited and prices will also increase. However, the difference between what's needed to convert between 12v to lower voltages and multiple rails to lower voltages is pretty obvious in its near nonexistence: