Star Citizen studio accused by staff for making them work during Texas winter storm.

[Arika]

I mean, my job is  the same. I work from home, and if my power or internet goes out, I either have to go into the office (the expectation) or argue to just take the day off using my annual leave balance. 

[Distinctly Average]

1 minute ago, ravenshrike said:

Had the pressure in the lines remained nominal, that wouldn't have mattered. The pressure drop that caused the freezing was so widespread because the amount of nat gas suddenly being pulled from the tanks was almost double the standard rate. Even if the lines had all been fully insulated from outside conditions, it's possible they would have still froze. Again, wind as any sort of baseline power generation is fucking stupid. The only way it works is with at least 48 hours worth of backup battery capacity.

Pressure drops in gas happen through the world. Dry gas does not freeze until silly low temperatures of about -182 or colder depending on composition, it is the water content to form a structure called a clathrate. That water content is high because it is fracked gas. Water can be removed, but there is a cost involved. Had it been removed, and with good design of the pipelines, freezing should not be an issue. Once again, it costs,

 

In Texas, wind is not part of the baseline power generation, it is ancillary. It does a great job most of the time and it can, with a little effort and cost, work in much colder temps and extremely harsh conditions. Just look at the wind farms in Sweden or Norway for instance. Again, it is about careful design.

 

Wind was not the issue here, something which you are obviously against, It was a financial decision to not cater for these extreme conditions across the whole power generating infrastructure in Texas. It is called risk management. Why spend millions on something with a low prediction of happening. They will now have to re-think and it will be interesting to see what changes.

 

Oh, and there really is no need to swear to try and strengthen your argument, it does the opposite.

[jasonvp]

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

I mean,

Some day, kids will learn to start a thought without, "I mean".  Hope springs eternal, of course.

 

Quote

my job is  the same. I work from home, and if my power or internet goes out, I either have to go into the office (the expectation) or argue to just take the day off using my annual leave balance.

It largely appears like CIG did the right thing in this case.  Much the same way my employer did for our employees in Texas:  Give folks the freedom to deal with a crippling, state-wide emergency that impacted their homes, their families, and their communities.  All without losing any vacation time.

 

Good on them.  Stop playing the part of the "tough guy" on the Internet because neither you, nor others who weren't there, haven't one clue what those folks were dealing with for days on end.

[Distinctly Average]

1 minute ago, jasonvp said:

Some day, kids will learn to start a thought without, "I mean".  Hope springs eternal, of course.

 

 

 

It will never happen. Language evolves and not always for the better. Especially true for the spoken word. The use of “axe” instead of “ask” makes me cringe. However, I can still understand what is being said so who am I to judge?

 

Back on topic, sound to me like the company didn’t behave too badly. Probably news came from a disgruntled employee and spread online. Only a guess though, as it is all here say.

[Distinctly Average]

22 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Speaking of battery capacity

 

"Elon Musk is getting into the Texas power market, with previously unrevealed construction of a gigantic battery connected to an ailing electric grid that nearly collapsed last month. The move marks Tesla Inc.’s first major foray into the epicenter of the U.S. energy economy.

 

A Tesla subsidiary registered as Gambit Energy Storage LLC is quietly building a more than 100 megawatt energy storage project in Angleton, Texas, a town roughly 40 miles south of Houston. A battery that size could power about 20,000 homes on a hot summer day. Workers at the site kept equipment under cover and discouraged onlookers, but a Tesla logo could be seen on a worker’s hard hat and public documents helped confirm the company’s role."

 

Batteries isn't the answer. As you can see, the amount of capacity for 20,000 homes in July/August (heatwave) doesn't scale. What batteries do however is smooth out changes in load so as to prevent brownouts. By working the market, you can charge at night when the rates are low and feed back into the grid when demand is high. So, it's profitable, brownouts averted, win-win for everyone.

 

For true baseload, 3rd gen nuclear (and 4th gen in the future) is the only viable option. Everything else is a pipe dream at achieving clean, green, baseload.

I think what will be really interesting is when we see vehicle to grid in common and extensive use, as well as batteries in our homes also supporting the grid. The head of our national grid here has said this will reduce the need for so many power stations even with the extra load of charging all those cars/power walls. As you say, it will level out surges allowing a more manageable system overall.

[Rocky Arbigaus]

46 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

We probably shouldn't believe everything we read on the Intard-webz.  CIG has been responding to the original article that this didn't happen.  In fact, employees were specifically told to clock in as if they were working so as to not lose any time off.

 

Yeah, you are right, Those six employees were probably lying, right? No company would release a statement that is not true, right? 

[HerrKaLeu]

6 hours ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

Ok, great, sorry then if I dismissed you like a jackass.
But let me try to explain why I think this is fucked up, at least in my view. Back in Brazil, were I come from, there are no Unpaid Leaves. All your working days, holidays and vacations are all paid. You may have a discount if you fail to fulfill your monthly hours, but what your discount will be that month paid leave (Sunday, for example).
Additionally, we get a 13th salary, that would work almost the same way as your Christmas bonus, but granted by law as an extra salary month.
And on top of that, the employer must make a pension deposit to a protected account that we can only use if we get fired, buying the first house or in case of a natural disaster. 

Also, the employers is responsible from the employee security during work hours, and commuting to and from work is considered working hours. So yeah, working in your car during a blizzard is a big no-no, unless your company fancies a lawsuit.

Holidays and vacation days are limited to a certain number per year. I doubt in Brazil an employee can just take 365 paid vacation days. The same in the US (or anywhere else in the World). 

 

No way commuting time is paid work time and the responsibility of the employer. Are you saying if I chose to live 4 hours away from my employer, I basically drive to work and back, do no work and then get paid for 8 hours since that commute is the employer's responsibility? Same for the safety of the commute. I'm driving in an unsafe manner to work is not the employer's responsibility. 

[SteveGrabowski0]

5 hours ago, StDragon said:

I live west of Houston. So I've got a few things to say about it...

 

Our homes were never built to spec like up up north. While insulated in the walls and attic, the attic itself is deigned to flow air through it to keep cool as possible during warmer climate. Which means any pipes above the insulation line would have popped if they weren't set to drip at the faucet and spigots outside. When water stands still, ice crystals form, water expands, and pipes burst. It's basic physics 101 stuff.

 

Me and my direct four other neighbors had a CPVC pipe burst in the attic above the garage. It ran the length of the roofline right above the soffit; might as well have had that pipe out in the open fully exposed. It froze in two places at the end and ruptured in the middle. We forgot to leave that one spigot dripping on the side of our homes. I had to cut the pipe and cap it off. I have water to the home and life is normal again. Later this spring or summer I'll look into repairs, but for now isn't not essential. Annoying to not have it working, but can live without.

 

The consecutive days below freezing combined with ice sleet was what killed the grid. Pipelines were frozen (they weren't burred to winterized spec last I read), steam boiler lines frozen (power generation), and wind turbine blades iced up. We even had a nuclear plant shutdown (controlled and it was safe); so that was a large portion of power generation off the grid too.

Lots of us have gas heating, but without electricity, we can't use it as the blower motor has to spin. While we can literally weather through 8+ hours without power, we can't for 48+ hours. A home can only retain so much heat before pipes freeze in the wall. Walking around inside feeling 35+F degrees isn't fun. Let me tell you... And that was the biggest issue, Ercot had lost control of the ability to balance the grid and duration of supply. In fact, it's rumored they were moments away from a catastrophic collapses of the grid to where it would take MONTHS to bring back online. With refineries shutdown, you would see (in the US at least) gasoline prices more than double in price. In fact, so bad the Fed Gov would have to step in with rationing not seen since wartime or the energy crisis of the 1970s.

So yeah, heads have rolled over this and taught us Texans a valuable lesson; get our grid to winterized spec. This won't be the last time this will happen; nature isn't so forgiving. 

I kind of wonder if ERCOT is dramatizing things to take attention away from the fact that they were price gouging the hell out local electric companies. If heads were going to roll they should start with Gov Abbott since he's the one who appoints the crooks to the Texas PUC.

[JZStudios]

5 hours ago, Sauron said:

I love how I never even mentioned half of this stuff but go off king I guess.

 

If you had bothered to read what I wrote you'd know I never said houses weren't built with heating systems in them, I just said that in a lot of areas those systems couldn't work due to outages.

You were arguing about what was originally said. What was originally stated was that Texas homes don't have heating or insulation. Thus, I countered that with truth.

Keep track of what you're arguing for.

[atxcyclist]

Texas homes have insulation, but they're not insulated for cold weather like more northern climates zones are. We have radiant-type attic insulation and higher glass insulation ratings to keep solar energy transfer lower, but the insulation requirements of exterior walls and attics here are not as stringent as northern zones. Also, many people do have heaters in homes but the systems are commonly geared towards cooling efficiency. Some heat pump systems have additional emergency heat strips for extreme cold, but they're terrible from an energy efficiency standpoint, and contribute greatly to the overloading of the electrical grid. Natural gas heating is somewhat common in city areas where there's distribution but not so much in the country, oil heating is basically non-existent here, and not that many newer houses have wood-burning-capable fireplaces.

 

Source: I live in Texas and work in commercial building design.

[StDragon]

4 hours ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

I kind of wonder if ERCOT is dramatizing things to take attention away from the fact that they were price gouging the hell out local electric companies. If heads were going to roll they should start with Gov Abbott since he's the one who appoints the crooks to the Texas PUC.

The only people effected by prices were those subscribing to the wholesale market, like Griddy. Most people know that whatever savings you get with Griddy immediately get wiped out in summers where rolling brownouts occur. 99.99% of everyone else were on fixed rate contracts. Many energy resellers on the other hand have filed for bankruptcy.

[dizmo]

Well that was an interesting read. 10% about the content, 90% about other stuff and bickering.

 

I was going to say I was shocked that they'd send their employees in, since it's pretty clear they have no intention of actually releasing a full game.

But. Didn't play out that way.

 

16 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

As a German, severe Winter weather is normal for you. The reason its not a big deal is because you're equipped to deal with it, your house is insulated, you have central heating, you keep warm winter clothes, your council have ploughs and gritters.

 

Remember that, in Texas, going below 10c in the Winter would be considered abnormal. Their houses are made from wood, they have no insulation, no heating (in fact Air Con is mandatory in Texas), they wear shorts in December etc etc.

 

The two situations are VERY different.

So many wrong things in that...but I see you've been blasted about it enough

I also found it comical that your statements were for some reason attributed to @Sauron as the thread grew.

11 hours ago, AlwaysFSX said:

The concept of doesn't exist =/= didn't work seems to be hard apparently. The government's failure to winterize the grid is not the same as Texas not having the equipment to deal with a snowstorm or other weather. They do.

I agree with 98% of what you've said, but having the equipment and being able to use it are two different things though. As someone who's lived somewhere that gets snow a few times a year, to somewhere that gets snow for 6 - 8 months of the year, the skills of maintenance crews vary wildly.

10 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

In other news, life as normal? Schools didn't close for this storm..

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/weather/2021/03/11/seasons-biggest-snowstorm-drops-more-than-a-foot-of-snow-in-some-parts-of-anchorage/

In other news, Texas is not Alaska. See above comment.

9 hours ago, Tedny said:

64 comments in 6 hours, this is bigger news than new Imac 

I mean, this is LTT...Mac lovers are few and far between

9 hours ago, Vishera said:

Well,most of the community lives outside the US,mainly Europeans and Canadians.

 

That's rough,because of global warming the winters are colder and summer is hotter.

My country has similar weather to Texas and we also got hit hard with winter storms,luckily i live far enough from the center of these storms but it's still too cold.

I'd say if anything it's probably even, if not more skewed towards people from the US, simply because of population levels.

Fun fact; Texas isn't that far behind the population of Canada.

Global warming also affects different areas differently. Some places, for example, are seeing much milder winters with far less snow.

9 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

Just to set the stage for what I'm about to say, I grew up in Wisconsin but I've been living in Mississippi for about 10 years now. We got the same snow storm that Texas did, mostly to the same extent.

It really wasn't that bad. People in the south would just rather use snow as an excuse to not do anything than learn how to drive in it. Literally. The snow, overall, stayed on the ground for only a week (the bulk of it stayed for only three days), and yet every store was empty, suppliers didn't deliver to retailers, and people wouldn't come to work. But I drove a front wheel drive Ford Escape to work, every day during the storm, without issue. Work absentee problems during winter weather in the south are the result of laziness and poor driving ability, and nothing else.

The power outages in Texas where pretty bad. From the research I've seen, there are really two reasons for that: Common failures that happen during ice storms (downed lines), but more largely, they rely very heavily on wind (and to a lesser extent solar). Those power sources simply don't work in storms. Common sense would tell you that if an airplane can't take off with ice on it's propeller, then a wind turbine won't work well with ice on it's propeller (that's basically what it is) either. This issue has been so highly politicized that I don't imagine any reasonable discussion can be had on it, but just think about it for a minute: Does a fan work when covered in ice?

You've clearly never lived somewhere that doesn't have proper snow management. Completely different ballgame.

[straight_stewie]

2 hours ago, dizmo said:

You've clearly never lived somewhere that doesn't have proper snow management. Completely different ballgame.

I've been living in Mississippi for a little over a decade now. I am aware of what happens when your city doesn't have any snow plows and it snows almost 2 feet overnight. Within the next day, all of the retail parking lots where cleared, and the major roads had been packed down enough to make it passable by virtually any 4+ wheeled vehicle whether 2wd or 4wd.

I'm also aware of what living in an area with excellent snow management is like. Even with top notch snow management, you still have to drive on ice, packed, and sometimes even fresh snow. 

[Master Disaster]

4 hours ago, dizmo said:

So many wrong things in that...but I see you've been blasted about it enough

I also found it comical that your statements were for some reason attributed to @Sauron as the thread grew.

Meh, if I said a dumb then I'm not bothered by the blasting. Its hardly surprising my pre-existing notions about a state in a country on the other side of the globe from me and that I've never visited are incorrect.

 

While my statement was factually incorrect my main point still stands, you cannot compare emergencies from places that have SUCH different weather conditions. A few years back hundreds of people died in France because we had a heatwave over most of Europe for 2 weeks and temps reached near 40c/104f (IIRC in France, Germany & Holland temps exceeded 40c), I never once heard a Texan or Arizonian saying 40c is nothing and Europe should just suck it up and carry on.

 

Also yeah, apologies @SauronNo idea why my post got attributed to you?

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, straight_stewie said:

I've been living in Mississippi for a little over a decade now. I am aware of what happens when your city doesn't have any snow plows and it snows almost 2 feet overnight. Within the next day, all of the retail parking lots where cleared, and the major roads had been packed down enough to make it passable by virtually any 4+ wheeled vehicle whether 2wd or 4wd.

I'm also aware of what living in an area with excellent snow management is like. Even with top notch snow management, you still have to drive on ice, packed, and sometimes even fresh snow. 

 

So you haven't been living somwhere without proper snow management. What your describing is far better than you can expect in a place with virtually nonexistent management.

 

It's been a long time since we got bad snow in my part of the UK, not sure why, popular topic of speculation locally as we allways seem to get it lighter than surrounding area's. But the last time we got a serious overnight dump that really put down a thick layer that didn't imminently start melting the next day it really caused havoc. Snow wasn't packed down for a lot more than a day and even once it was there was so much ice mixed in you couldn't safely drive above walking speed on all but the most major roads. It made getting anywhere a real pain in the backside. And for many people getting into work was impractical just because even if they could drive on the local roads, they had to go so slow most of the way that the commute time wasn't practical.

 

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure a lot of people from the UK dropped into Texas could have hacked driving on the roads, and i'm sure there's other things they could/would have done to make it more manageable. but we get that kind of weather a lot more often. The thing about any kind of natural disaster is that you get good at dealing with it through a combination of education and actual experiance applying the theory. Texas and the like don't get that experiance often enough to really learn how to cope. It's not laziness or bad attitude. It's people going "i don't feel confidant in doing this thing because i might hurt myself and/or others if i try so i won't do it". Thats taking responsibility for the consequences of their own actions and is something we should encourage.

[Inelastic]

19 hours ago, Rocky Arbigaus said:

Yeah, you are right, Those six employees were probably lying, right? No company would release a statement that is not true, right? 

We're talking about Kotaku here, one of the biggest click-baity sites around. This isn't the first time they've written an article like this about CIG in which not only did CIG say they're wrong, but a bunch of employees also spoke up saying they're wrong. There have been plenty of employees on Twitter who have said this was incorrect. Either it was an outright lie, or maybe a small group got this information from their supervisor, who wasn't in contact with upper management and just told them what he/she thought would happen, since what was said is par for the course for Texas. Then Kotaku spun the story to be some big controversy because that's what they do to get the clicks.

 

I lived in Texas for a few years. I talked to some of my old colleagues there and when the storm hit, their job was shut down. They didn't work, and didn't get paid either. The same thing was told to them that was told to the CIG employees.

[IkeaGnome]

12 hours ago, dizmo said:

In other news, Texas is not Alaska. See above comment.

Correct, however winter storms being more and more common would make you think they'd....prepare...

https://www.c2es.org/2021/02/winter-weather-in-texas-and-the-importance-of-infrastructure-resilience-investment/

https://www.noaa.gov/media-release/noaa-updates-texas-rainfall-frequency-values

https://texasalmanac.com/topics/environment/extreme-weather-records

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-09/documents/climate-change-tx.pdf

[SansVarnic]

I live in Iowa, though I understand the plight.... work from home is an option with companies like this... so womp, womp?

[Sauron]

4 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

I live in Iowa, though I understand the plight.... work from home is an option with companies like this... so womp, womp?

...if there's power at your home

[SansVarnic]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

...if there's power at your home

Yeah, I saw the lawsuit being presented about that. That power company has a lot to explain. (The freezing wind turbines can't be blamed as they had backup power options.)

Anyhow RSI should be more understanding to the employee's as it was a 100yr event. Bad on RSI.

[Eaglerino]

Kotaku really attracts some of the worst 'journalists' on the planet don't they

[Sauron]

33 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

(The freezing wind turbines can't be blamed as they had backup power options.)

And also they would not have frozen if the private power company hadn't cheaped out on them because "it's not gonna snow in Texas lmao"

[StDragon]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

And also they would not have frozen if the private power company hadn't cheaped out on them because "it's not gonna snow in Texas lmao"

It wasn't malicious. It was a calculated risk in concert with remaining competitive because others in the the industry are doing the same. So while winterizing was recommended, it wasn't officially a requirement. I'm fairly confident that will now change given the aftermath of this event.

[Sauron]

Just now, StDragon said:

It wasn't malicious. It was a calculated risk in concert with remaining competitive

Damn, it's almost like privatizing infrastructure is a stupid idea because it leads to companies compromising safety to keep turning a profit.

 

Also who exactly are these "competitors"? Afaik you don't exactly get to choose who provides your power in Texas, just like you don't choose which ISP you can get in certain areas.

2 minutes ago, StDragon said:

So while winterizing was recommended, it wasn't officially a requirement. I'm fairly confident that will now change given the aftermath of this event.

Yeah, and maybe it wouldn't have been a problem if the people in charge of Texas legislation had heeded the warnings they got from researchers over decades at this point... or if they hadn't insisted on cutting off their grid from the rest of the US because they wanted to privatize it, meaning they had no backup power sources...

[StDragon]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

Damn, it's almost like privatizing infrastructure is a stupid idea because it leads to companies compromising safety to keep turning a profit.

 

Also who exactly are these "competitors"? Afaik you don't exactly get to choose who provides your power in Texas, just like you don't choose which ISP you can get in certain areas.

Yeah, and maybe it wouldn't have been a problem if the people in charge of Texas legislation had heeded the warnings they got from researchers over decades at this point... or if they hadn't insisted on cutting off their grid from the rest of the US because they wanted to privatize it, meaning they had no backup power sources...

It's a sliding scale with regulation. Too much regulation and growth / expansion is slowed down with increases in costs; costs passed down to the consumer. To little regulation, and the risk goes way up, but you also grow and expand products and services. Proper governance and public policy aim is to strike a balance between.

 

The way I see it, the pendulum will swing the other way.

 

What most Texans wont be prepared for is a shock in 15 cents kWh and an increase home insurance rates. It's more than when Harvey hit with an estimate of $200 BILLION in damages.