AMD Zen 3+ and Zen 4 - Rumors About a Massive 25%+ IPC

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, StDragon said:

That make no sense to have a one-off socket. 3+ "Warhol" is rumored to be PCIe 4 support. So, I don't see why they would move that from AM4 to AM5. But certainly not some one-off socket in between. Also, I'm not sure the IO die could even switch between DDR4 and DDR5. The DDR standard is baked in the die. It's either DDR4 or DDR5, but can't support both.

I love the "Warhol" name.
Anyway, what I mean is AM4 chips would use the DDR4 slots, and the newer chipset would bring faster other things, more M.2 slots (things that are only on higher-end boards) and then Zen3+ would use the DDR5 slots.

[StDragon]

4 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

I love the "Warhol" name.
Anyway, what I mean is AM4 chips would use the DDR4 slots, and the newer chipset would bring faster other things, more M.2 slots (things that are only on higher-end boards) and then Zen3+ would use the DDR5 slots.

It's my limited understanding that the notch position in DDR4 DIMMs are in a different location than DDR5 DIMMs. So, you can't have a universal DIMM slot that supports either module to my knowledge. Either the MB supports DDR4, or DDR5, but not both.

[WhitetailAni]

Just now, StDragon said:

It's my limited understanding that the notch position in DDR4 DIMMs are in a different location than DDR5 DIMMs. So, you can't have a universal DIMM slot that supports either module to my knowledge. Either the MB supports DDR4, or DDR5, but not both.

The above is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UniDIMM

[StDragon]

1 minute ago, ragnarok0273 said:

The above is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UniDIMM

Interesting. Hmm.. I wonder if the existing IO chip can handle a fail-safe if a DDR5 DIMM was accidently used with a current 5000 series chip. I mean, there are electrical engineering issues that could either damage the IO chip, DIMM, or both. In other words, to support UniDIMM, I would think there would have to be a lot of pre-planning way ahead of time with prior generation CPUs.

 

I honestly don't know how if that could be implemented today. 

[Vishera]

54 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

not really, many boards don't have enough memory space to have all the microcode and still allow a fancy bios, and they aren't open to having support split across multiple bios

That's a contradiction,so why 400 series boards support all the generations of Ryzen even with boards that have lower BIOS ROM capacities?

My B450 Gaming X supports both the Ryzen 7 1700,and the 5800X,and it has a standard 128 Mbit BIOS ROM.

[Delicieuxz]

8 hours ago, GravityHurts said:

Guess I should've waited slightly longer before upgrading

Not for the hypothesized Zen 3+ IPC increase mentioned in the OP. If someone holds-out for Zen 3+, then they might as well just wait for Zen 4 because Zen 4 is the thing to wait for. Zen 4 should have a large IPC increase, will have DDR 5, USB 4, and maybe PCIE5. It'll be a solid cross-over into a comprehensive set of new standards.

 

But I've been hoping it will release in 2021, or very early 2022 at the latest. AMD did say in December 2019 that they were on schedule for Zen 4 to get a 2021 release.

 

AMD's latest CPU roadmaps also show Zen 4 as releasing in 2021.

 

 

 

[MadAnt250]

11 hours ago, ZuppaSalata said:

Zen 3+ is expected to be AMD's first AM5 CPU

That's nice, create confusion for people, thanks AMD.

By TechPowerUp

"Take all this information with a heavy dose of skepticism as with any rumor."

 

[porina]

16 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

But I've been hoping it will release in 2021, or very early 2022 at the latest. AMD did say in December 2019 that they were on schedule for Zen 4 to get a 2021 release.

 

AMD's latest CPU roadmaps also show Zen 4 as releasing in 2021.

Nothing I can see at that link says AMD said Zen 4 will be 2021. I read that article as suggesting that TSMC is on track for volume manufacture of the process AMD will use for Zen 4. Those "roadmaps" I read as saying Zen 4 will be not later than 2022.

 

If I had to guess based on AMD's past behaviour and their recent changes in behaviour, this thread's Zen 3+ seems more likely if they will release a new desktop CPU line this year. The Zen to Zen+ gap was shorter than we've seen with the digit upgrade gaps. Consumer Zen 4 had always felt more like a 2022 product to me, although they may release certain market segments at different times. It does feel to me desktop is getting pushed back a bit as they focus on higher profit lines like server and mobile. So they might do an Intel and desktop comes later.

[Fnige]

6 hours ago, Vishera said:

That's a contradiction,so why 400 series boards support all the generations of Ryzen even with boards that have lower BIOS ROM capacities?

My B450 Gaming X supports both the Ryzen 7 1700,and the 5800X,and it has a standard 128 Mbit BIOS ROM.

1. Im pretty sure that the standard is 64 Mbit and not 128.

 

2. Didnt AMD had to do some shenanigans to fit 5th gen into the bios.

[Blademaster91]

9 hours ago, StDragon said:

I'm thinking 3+ "Warhol" is going to remain AM4; specifically because of current market conditions in fabrication and DDR5 availability. In fact, I'll be so optimistic as to assume 3+ will socket right into an X570 board.  

A Zen3+ being on AM4 would be great for those that want another CPU upgrade on their 500 series boards, but I wonder how Zen3+ would keep up with Intel's Alder Lake.

Also with the availability of GPU's I think it would really benefit AMD to include an iGPU with all of their CPU's.

[GDRRiley]

10 hours ago, DriftMan said:

Is Zen 4 going to use AM4 socket? I remember reading somewhere that Zen 3 would be the last generation to support AM4 socket but it sounds kinda wrong to me

new socket

[Delicieuxz]

1 hour ago, porina said:

Nothing I can see at that link says AMD said Zen 4 will be 2021. I read that article as suggesting that TSMC is on track for volume manufacture of the process AMD will use for Zen 4. Those "roadmaps" I read as saying Zen 4 will be not later than 2022.

 

If I had to guess based on AMD's past behaviour and their recent changes in behaviour, this thread's Zen 3+ seems more likely if they will release a new desktop CPU line this year. The Zen to Zen+ gap was shorter than we've seen with the digit upgrade gaps. Consumer Zen 4 had always felt more like a 2022 product to me, although they may release certain market segments at different times. It does feel to me desktop is getting pushed back a bit as they focus on higher profit lines like server and mobile. So they might do an Intel and desktop comes later.

The opening sentence of this article says "AMD's "Zen 4" CPU microarchitecture is on track for a 2021 launch". Though, that comment doesn't appear to be coming directly from AMD.

 

I think the roadmap charts are to be read like this:

 

 

I think the dates for released CPUs have always lined-up properly that way, and not some other way.

 

And, this January, AMD suggested their CPUs are on-track: AMD assures its future next-gen Zen 4/Zen 5 Ryzen CPUs and RDNA 3-based GPUs are on track

 

Together, that suggests to me that Zen 4 has been planned for a 2021 release.

 

Without competition from Intel, AMD could push-back the release of Zen 4. But in that above article, AMD say they're aggressively focused on long-term roadmaps, while pushing things back, when AMD have said they're on-track, would be abandoning the long-term plan for short-term capitalization.

 

And if AMD wait until mid 2022 to release Zen 4, Intel could soak-up all the most intense DDR5-platform demand before AMD get theirs to market (I'm assuming Zen 3+ will still not support DDR5) and get their CPUs solidly associated with DDR5 long before AMD makes its appearance, regaining the market share and leading-brand-recognition that it's been losing to AMD since Zen 3. I think that would be a poor business strategy.

[GDRRiley]

11 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The opening sentence of this article says "AMD's "Zen 4" CPU microarchitecture is on track for a 2021 launch". Though, that comment doesn't appear to be coming directly from AMD.

 

I think the roadmap charts are to be read like this

thats saying epyc zen4 will be out which makes sense. DDR5 will help the server side a lot

[porina]

31 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The opening sentence of this article says "AMD's "Zen 4" CPU microarchitecture is on track for a 2021 launch". Though, that comment doesn't appear to be coming directly from AMD.

Exactly, you claimed it was from AMD. Instead it was TPU's interpretation of events.

 

Quote

I think the roadmap charts are to be read like this:

 

 

I think the dates for released CPUs have always lined-up properly that way, and not some other way.

That fails on the first step. Zen came out in early 2017. If we mirror this, then 2022 would be the year for Zen 4. They probably left the chart ambiguous both to give themselves some wiggle room and also for artistic simplicity.

 

What we have for desktop CPUs:

Zen: March 2017

Zen+: April 2018

Zen 2: July 2019

Zen 3: Nov. 2020

 

I think a minor refresh to Zen 3+ late 2021 is possible, with Zen 4 following later 2022. If they go straight to Zen 4, I still think that is early 2022.

 

I suppose Intel are doing a short cycle between Rocket Lake and Alder Lake, and we can't rule out AMD doing similar with a possible Zen 3+ and Zen 4.

 

Quote

And, this January, AMD suggested their CPUs are on-track: AMD assures its future next-gen Zen 4/Zen 5 Ryzen CPUs and RDNA 3-based GPUs are on track

"on track" doesn't tell you a lot if they haven't said what that track is. One of the interview questions in that link, the interviewer asked suggesting Zen 4 was an "early 2022" product, and there was no response from AMD on that part.

 

Quote

And if AMD wait until mid 2022 to release Zen 4, Intel could soak-up all the most intense DDR5-platform before AMD get theirs to market (I'm assuming Zen 3+ will still not support DDR5) and get their CPUs solidly associated with DDR5 long before AMD makes its appearance, regaining the market share and leading-brand-recognition that it's been losing to AMD since Zen 3. I think that would be a poor business strategy.

According to OP, Zen 3+ will be DDR5. That's one of the flexibility options AMD has, they only need a DDR5 IOD and could attach whatever cores to it. By the time that new IOD is available they have sufficient time to do some tweaks to the core also, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a bigger generation update.

[CarlBar]

My guess, Zen 3+ will have the Zen 4 IO die paired with Zen 3 cores, (probably clocked a bit higher due to better yields). In fact this might become AMD's own version of "tick-tock" Release a new IO die paired with existing cores clocked a bit better as a "+ gen", then release the next number iteration with new cores paired with the allready out there IO die.

[GDRRiley]

57 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

My guess, Zen 3+ will have the Zen 4 IO die paired with Zen 3 cores, (probably clocked a bit higher due to better yields). In fact this might become AMD's own version of "tick-tock" Release a new IO die paired with existing cores clocked a bit better as a "+ gen", then release the next number iteration with new cores paired with the allready out there IO die.

na they need zen on a different node, they won't move RDNA2 forward but they could pull the low end chips back

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

na they need zen on a different node, they won't move RDNA2 forward but they could pull the low end chips back

 

Consider me confused. Why do they need it on a different node. It's not like they don't have solid performance allready. I mean as TSMC updates and refines their 7nm i see no reason to not follow along with that. But a complete node change would entail a major piece of work, (and money), to get the existing design working on the new node would be a lot of time money and effort for a refresh.

[GDRRiley]

17 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Consider me confused. Why do they need it on a different node.

CAPACITY. 7nm has too much stuff on it from the APUs for game consoles to RNDA2 to all of zen3.

the PS5/ XBOX series really should have been on a different node like say 7nm from Global Foundries if that wasn't canceled. I get they couldn't do 14 or 12nm as that really would have just been zen++ (which would have be still a massive change over jaguar) and they'd be more power hungry but they need the capacity.

Zen3+ would likely be on 6nm for that reason, more capacity.

[Vishera]

8 hours ago, SlimyPython said:

1. Im pretty sure that the standard is 64 Mbit and not 128.

Even very low end boards such as the Gigabyte GA-A320M-S2H use 128 Mbit BIOS chips.

That board is so cheap that it doesn't have heatsinks for the VRMs.

8 hours ago, SlimyPython said:

2. Didnt AMD had to do some shenanigans to fit 5th gen into the bios.

Nope,It falls on motherboard manufacturers to implement it in their products.

Some manufacturers can have issues implementing it,but seems like they found a solution.

MSI has the best solution - 256 Mbit BIOS chips have plenty of space for everything MSI wants to include in their BIOS.

[CarlBar]

50 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

CAPACITY. 7nm has too much stuff on it from the APUs for game consoles to RNDA2 to all of zen3.

the PS5/ XBOX series really should have been on a different node like say 7nm from Global Foundries if that wasn't canceled. I get they couldn't do 14 or 12nm as that really would have just been zen++ (which would have be still a massive change over jaguar) and they'd be more power hungry but they need the capacity.

Zen3+ would likely be on 6nm for that reason, more capacity.

 

7nm+ is allready a seperate process production wise to 7nm, so Zen 3 is allready on a different node to the console APU's.

 

That said i'm not sure how your comment relates to what you quoted at the start. They might move to a variant node that they can easily transfer a design to for the cores, but there's no way they're completely redesigning the entire core chiplet architecture for a refresh, that takes a lot of time and they haven't had it. If they had it would have been on their long term road-map years ago. This is an off the cuff move so it;s got to be using minimal modification of stuff thats either in production or coming down the pipe to production.

[CarlBar]

21 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Even very low end boards such as the Gigabyte GA-A320M-S2H use 128 Mbit BIOS chips.

That board is so cheap that it doesn't have heatsinks for the VRMs.

 

Zen 1, Zen+ and i think Zen 2 can only address the it if it's formatted to 64 megs size. if it's formatted to 128 the older stuff can't work with it. GN did a piece explaining the details some time back.

[Vishera]

5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Zen 1, Zen+ and i think Zen 2 can only address the it if it's formatted to 64 megs size. if it's formatted to 128 the older stuff can't work with it. GN did a piece explaining the details some time back.

Explain this:

15 hours ago, Vishera said:

That's a contradiction,so why 400 series boards support all the generations of Ryzen even with boards that have lower BIOS ROM capacities?

My B450 Gaming X supports both the Ryzen 7 1700,and the 5800X,and it has a standard 128 Mbit BIOS ROM.

 

[CarlBar]

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

Explain this:

 

 

Just because it has 128 meg capacity doesn't mean it has to use it. like i said check the GN video on it, shouldn't be hard to find, they did a far better job of explaining it than i ever could.

[GDRRiley]

4 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

7nm+ is allready a seperate process production wise to 7nm, so Zen 3 is allready on a different node to the console APU's.

N7 vs N7P vs N7+. N7 and N7P are basically the same node and while N7+ is different it doesn't really help capacity

12 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Zen 1, Zen+ and i think Zen 2 can only address the it if it's formatted to 64 megs size. if it's formatted to 128 the older stuff can't work with it. GN did a piece explaining the details some time back.

they can only access the first part of it for Zen1 and Zen+. they've got a limited amount of data lines in for BIOS chips. it just means the info for them must be at the start

 

[spartaman64]

 

14 hours ago, Vishera said:

Even very low end boards such as the Gigabyte GA-A320M-S2H use 128 Mbit BIOS chips.

That board is so cheap that it doesn't have heatsinks for the VRMs.

Nope,It falls on motherboard manufacturers to implement it in their products.

Some manufacturers can have issues implementing it,but seems like they found a solution.

MSI has the best solution - 256 Mbit BIOS chips have plenty of space for everything MSI wants to include in their BIOS.

It always falls on the manufacturers to implement it for any bios. The manufacturers are the ones that make the motherboards not amd. 

23 hours ago, MadAnt250 said:

That's nice, create confusion for people, thanks AMD.

By TechPowerUp

"Take all this information with a heavy dose of skepticism as with any rumor."

 

Why would there be any confusion it will be called ryzen 6000 or something. There wasn't any confusion when ryzen 1000 used the zen architecture and ryzen 2000 used zen+