More US-China Tradewar Company Restrictions Including Xiaomi

[Blade of Grass]

13 hours ago, Donut417 said:

They can eyeball it all they want. They wont do shit. Invading Taiwan would be like invading South Korea or Japan. The US would step in. Now eyeballing employees at TSMC would be permitted. Which is what China has been doing. 

Firstly. We dont produce chips and stuff in the US. Yes, American companies hold the patents on a lot of stuff (Its not like china gave a shit about patents anyway). Thats the worlds fucking problem not ours. No one has to use US designed CPU's, no one has to use Android. Countries are free to develop what ever tech they want. Its not our fault they rely on tech that is developed and patented in the US, thats the worlds problem for not being able to do it themselves. 

 

For the record China has been poaching TSMC employees in attempts to design and build their own CPU's. I believe Russia has also done the same. 

~75% of Intel’s fab is located in the US, Intel is still one of the largest fab companies in the world. 

[Commodus]

8 hours ago, D13H4RD said:

So uh, at this rate, what about all the other Chinese companies? 

 

Lenovo and BBK especially. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the incoming new administration goes about it. 

Lenovo would definitely be a thorny prospect. Blacklisting Lenovo would take down Motorola, and losing an American business is not a good look.

 

And BBK... well, say goodbye to OnePlus in the US if that happens.

 

Here's hoping that Xiaomi is largely as far as it goes. China does some horrible things that deserve stern action, but a lot of this is more political theatre than a practical response. The country isn't going to spy on Jane or John Q. American through their phones, or even 5G networks; it's far more likely that any spying would target government staff and facilities.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 hours ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

US also has UMC, Texas, Linear/Analog, Micron, Microchip, Renesas, NXP, Infineon, GloFo, and smaller fabs. They're not producing most advanced nodes, but still relevant in memory, graphics, embedded, etc.

With only 3 leading edge fabs anymore, I think everyone forgets just how much capacity is there is on older nodes. All of that massive volume doesn't normally go away. They might move the node up after a decade, but there's massive volume in places people forget. Germany & Singapore being the two that stand out.  Also, TSCM and Samsung both have fairly large Fabs in the USA, as well.

[Blade of Grass]

13 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

With only 3 leading edge fabs anymore, I think everyone forgets just how much capacity is there is on older nodes. All of that massive volume doesn't normally go away. They might move the node up after a decade, but there's massive volume in places people forget. Germany & Singapore being the two that stand out.  Also, TSCM and Samsung both have fairly large Fabs in the USA, as well.

I don’t think the TSMC fab in the US is open yet, could be wrong. 
 

But yeah I agree, people don’t realize that most fab volume goes to embedded system chips/ICs etc, basically anything that’s not a desktop, laptop or server. There’s like an order of magnitude of devices with embedded computers sold each year, and they’re very likely not on bleeding edge processes. 

[Lii]

2 hours ago, Blade of Grass said:

There’s like an order of magnitude of devices with embedded computers sold each year, and they’re very likely not on bleeding edge processes. 

And almost nobody is going to buy original embedded stuff

like hell why not to buy a clone that's identical to the original and cost less than the 1/10 of the original 

(besides the fact that distinguish a clone to an original product, is not that easy, they get easily snuggled as original stuff)

Imao if they want to beat china, they should play their own game, whatever shit they do, at the end of the day, I'm not gonna pay for 50 euros for a board that is made in ue rather than buying an identical board from a manufacturer like jlc for 2 dollars

 

I'm sorry if I got political, but hella 50 euros for a stupid tiny board is for mad people

[Taf the Ghost]

2 hours ago, Blade of Grass said:

I don’t think the TSMC fab in the US is open yet, could be wrong. 
 

But yeah I agree, people don’t realize that most fab volume goes to embedded system chips/ICs etc, basically anything that’s not a desktop, laptop or server. There’s like an order of magnitude of devices with embedded computers sold each year, and they’re very likely not on bleeding edge processes. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSMC#WaferTech_subsidiary  also known as Fab 11. https://www.tsmc.com/english/aboutTSMC/TSMC_Fabs

 

One of those classic "close enough to another competitor to poach talent" ventures, actually. Intel and Xerox have/had big campuses less than 30 miles away. Still, just one more of those fabs that's easy to forget about. 

 

I thought I remember seeing a note that TI was actually the second biggest producer of wafers in the States, at least a few years ago, but having trouble finding any reasonable numbers to compare against. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

 

I completely forgot about Intel's Ireland fabs. Also, Japan has a massive amount by number of plants. 

[yian88]

On 1/16/2021 at 3:49 AM, Donut417 said:

They can eyeball it all they want. They wont do shit. Invading Taiwan would be like invading South Korea or Japan. The US would step in. Now eyeballing employees at TSMC would be permitted. Which is what China has been doing. 

Firstly. We dont produce chips and stuff in the US. Yes, American companies hold the patents on a lot of stuff (Its not like china gave a shit about patents anyway). Thats the worlds fucking problem not ours. No one has to use US designed CPU's, no one has to use Android. Countries are free to develop what ever tech they want. Its not our fault they rely on tech that is developed and patented in the US, thats the worlds problem for not being able to do it themselves. 

 

For the record China has been poaching TSMC employees in attempts to design and build their own CPU's. I believe Russia has also done the same. 

What im saying is that US really needs to fuck off,  they should not be able to hold control over where a private company sells general goods that are produced and sold in other countries, just because they invented stuff with their own money and staff and factories in the US, or US based, they should not have control to completely ban sharing of technology between companies overseas and online, they can ban anything they want on US teritory.

If google or ARM or intel wants to sell or share tech with anyone around the world in products that will not be sold in US and dont break international laws (like selling weapons) then US should have no control over that.

Thats about all i can say without politics, good thing an era comes to an end.

[Donut417]

6 hours ago, yian88 said:

they should not be able to hold control over where a private company sells general goods that are produced and sold in other countries

Well then Europe needs to FUCK OFF and stop telling Apple how it should produce is products, but they seem to keep regulating it. So its not just the US who tells companies what to do. Its called regulation.

 

I think many people like you cant wrap their head around the fact that we are in the second Cold War. This time its between the US and China. Do you think the US and Soviet Union shared tech during the Cold War? NOPE. Hell the US had to use Shell Corporations to purchase Titanium from the Soviet Union, which we promptly used in the SR71 Blackbird which was used to Spy on the Soviet Union. 

[williamcll]

Maybe Texas instruments would make high end phone chips again lmao.

[D13H4RD]

On 1/17/2021 at 1:23 AM, Commodus said:

 China does some horrible things that deserve stern action, but a lot of this is more political theatre than a practical response.

That's kind of how I feel. Seems like it is done mostly to pursue a political agenda rather than actual concerns for national security.

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, Donut417 said:

I think many people like you cant wrap their head around the fact that we are in the second Cold War. This time its between the US and China. Do you think the US and Soviet Union shared tech during the Cold War? NOPE. Hell the US had to use Shell Corporations to purchase Titanium from the Soviet Union, which we promptly used in the SR71 Blackbird which was used to Spy on the Soviet Union. 

If that's what you think then maybe you should advocate for deescalating the situation rather than cheer when one side tries to harm the other?

 

 

Also, for the people saying "well a Chinese company decided to do business with the US so therefore it's their own faults and other companies can do whatever they want", the situation isn't like that at all.

TSMC were threatened by the US government and forced to stop producing Kirin SoCs. Let me break that down for you.

TSMC, a Taiwanese company, were told by the US government to stop producing chips designed by a Chinese company.

The manufacturing of said chips were done using machines from ASML, a Dutch company.

Kirin SoCs were designed by Huawei, a Chinese company.

The Kirin SoC was designed using patents and technologies from ARM, a (at the time) British/Japanese company.

 

To break it down into a single sentence, the US told a private Taiwanese company that they are no longer allowed to manufacture SoCs designed by a Chinese company that were built on British and Japanese patents, manufactured by Dutch machines.

[linkboy]

On 1/16/2021 at 10:23 AM, Commodus said:

Lenovo would definitely be a thorny prospect. Blacklisting Lenovo would take down Motorola, and losing an American business is not a good look.

 

And BBK... well, say goodbye to OnePlus in the US if that happens.

 

Here's hoping that Xiaomi is largely as far as it goes. China does some horrible things that deserve stern action, but a lot of this is more political theatre than a practical response. The country isn't going to spy on Jane or John Q. American through their phones, or even 5G networks; it's far more likely that any spying would target government staff and facilities.

 

There's not just Motorola in regards to Lenovo, there's also the Thinkpad line. I can't imagine businesses being happy if the Thinkpad line wasn't allowed to be sold in the US.

[Blade of Grass]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

private Taiwanese company

They’re publicly traded in the US, so they’re directly subject to certain US regulations. 

[_ted_fu]

37 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

They’re publicly traded in the US, so they’re directly subject to certain US regulations. 

Also, 70% (if not more) of TSMC's share is owned by Americans.

[williamcll]

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

To break it down into a single sentence, the US told a private Taiwanese company that they are no longer allowed to manufacture SoCs designed by a Chinese company that were built on British and Japanese patents, manufactured by Dutch machines.

Now that you mention it, ASML is still selling fabs to the mainland. So these sanctions would probably have lesser effect over time now that there's that EU deal.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Blade of Grass said:

They’re publicly traded in the US, so they’re directly subject to certain US regulations. 

Yeah absolutely, but my point is the picture isn't as clear cut as "a Chinese company relies on the US, so the US can just cut ties if they want".

There are multiple countries involved and the US government's decisions affects all of them. I don't think the whole tribal mentality of "we are at war and have to defeat them" is a good thing to have. It will probably just escalate the situation and make it worse.

[aQi]

First it was Huawei, a threat for Samsung I mean US now its Xiaomi. 

 

Things are getting way too interesting now. Who will be next ???

[cj09beira]

lets just ignore the concentration camps