UPDATE: NVIDIA backtracks - Hardware Unboxed blacklisted from receiving GeForce FE review samples over “focus on rasterization over ray-tracing”

[Taf the Ghost]

1 hour ago, pierom_qwerty said:

I feel like its crappy of Nvidia to do this, but they do have a point. 

Hardware unboxed is basing their performance numbers pretty much only off of Rasterization. The thing is, while the improvements they have made there are kinda eh, we're going into a new era of everything is ray traced, down to linus' ball hairs the particles of sand in MC. Technologies such as DLSS and RT allow for us to start looking into what games in 2021 and 2022 will be using, most of which will probably be focused on ray tracing. This only makes sense, as better lighting = moar better. 

This was 100% a sleep deprived Piero ramble but I hope you get my point.

Nvidia doesn't have a point. That's why this is a massive problem. The chunk of the market that actually cares about RT performance is around the market for SLI. Which was 1% or so. It's going to remain that way for 2 more GPU generations. Then it'll matter a bit more. In 4-5 generations, about the time Nvidia is out of the consumer GPU market, and the real switch to hardware-based lighting approaches happens... that's the point where it really matters. When these GPUs can't even keep up.

 

But what Nvidia has now done is damage the reputation of every other reviewer. That's why the Tech Tubers are up in arms. Are they all now getting paid by Nvidia to say favorable things? The issue isn't the Samples. The issue is that samples are now contingent upon repeating Nvidia Marketing. Which means anyone reviewing a FE card is going to get "SHILL!" spammed in their comments, and there is nothing they can do that will properly deny it. While at the same time, does that now make review samples "sponsorship"? If that's the case, then there's FTC violations flying everywhere.

 

Nvidia is an extremely shady company that pulls all of the stunts they can get away with. What I wasn't expecting was one quite this stupid. Especially when this is the one generation where doing this actually doesn't make much sense. See the videos HUB did on Turing or the DDR4 1030.

[D13H4RD]

28 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

As much as I'm a Nvidia GeForce fanboy (openly so)

I can't see RT and DLSS being good from my experience with it in SOTR, I even think DLSS sucks because it makes SOTR look blurry

I'm not sure if Shadow of the Tomb Raider ever got updates to RT and DLSS, but I remember that was one of the launch titles which came shortly after Turing was released for purchase. So if it isn't updated, then it's not surprising that it is still pretty rough. 

25 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I complained about how can they release a game that runs on 30fps on 1080p on the lowest settings in the most popular GPU (1060)

I argued that 60 fps is minimum for average gamers, but further inspection I noticed that most of the recommended spec in the table for different CP2077 settings is only 30 fps judging by gpu benchmarks provided by GN and HUB, which makes me wonder

 

Is asking for 60 fps an enthusiast thing and most people are genuinely fine with 30fps?

Am I out of touch with majority of the gamers?

I think a lot of it is also based on user preference and experience. I've personally played video games at over 60FPS for so long at this point, and it's at the level where if I had to play a game at 30FPS for whatever reason, it would be quite disorienting for a good while until you adjust. 

 

Fwiw, I think 30FPS is fine for a game like Cyberpunk. It's not what I would consider ideal, at least personally, but the game doesn't appear all that fast paced, and a stable 30 would probably be better than an erratic 45-50 that very occasionally drops into the 30s. 

[Taf the Ghost]

44 minutes ago, Serin said:

Just quietly amusing myself over the fact that we can't even get founders 30 series cards here in Australia.
Of course, he'll have an international audience that likely outsizes his Aussie audience, but still.

"We won't be sending you a card to review that you and your countrymen can't even friggen buy without importing."
Well the frak done, Nvidia. What the hell. 

It actually was a problem for a while, for HUB, getting FE cards in general because they don't get sold in Australia often. I guess that problem is solved now, lol.

[Taf the Ghost]

17 minutes ago, Dionyz said:

They are a indication of performance. That's what they care about. Meaning Rasterization over Ray tracing. There is a survey somewhere in this thread that that's what majority of the people prefer.

 

At the end of the day most people care about performance. Real talk people will disable ray tracing to have the fluid game play. (Ray Tracing is a cool feature, but when push comes to shove it's off)

The GPU industry went through this exact same cycle with advanced AA options. SMAA used to be completely unusable. Now we're seeing 8x implementations. It took almost a decade for that to happen. Because it didn't matter for anything but Marketing for most of that decade. RT is the exact same thing. The actual consumer base only cares about Raster until the exact point where it'll care about Raytracing in 5+ years.

[D13H4RD]

42 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

But just like physx, if no one implements it, it's going to die, that's why I can see Nvidia pushing for it real hard this time, but trying to skew reviewers to do it is NOT the way to go about it

I don't think RT will go by the way of PhysX. Ray-traced computer graphics has been around for a while (just mostly done in server farms for rendering as it is excruciatingly expensive computationally) and has usually been described as "the holy grail". The fact that the new consoles have it means that hardware-accelerated ray tracing is here to stay and will gradually be developed for the future. It's just that we are in very early days for the technology and it still has a lot of room to grow and mature. 

47 minutes ago, DutchGuyTom said:

I don't thing ESports is by any means representative of the entire gaming industry but I do think it is a worthwhile example. It demonstrates that ray tracing is also not transforming the entire gaming industry.

 

28 minutes ago, DutchGuyTom said:

The point is only that there is so much more to games than just RT. It honestly does not transform the gaming industry but it is being advertised as though it is revolutionary. Games without RT have and will continue to look great and gameplay will always be king. 

And all this goes back to the "enthusiast's bubble" I talked about earlier. Graphics cards powerful enough to run intense ray-traced visuals whilst maintaining strong performance are mostly in the enthusiast category as of now. Whilst this is indeed changing, with consoles and the 3060 Ti putting this closer to reach of those without the same means, ray tracing as of now is still pretty much an enthusiasts' feature. A lot of people who play video games just want to experience a game with a good mix of performance and visual fidelity relative to their hardware. 

 

So while a lot of the people vouching for ray tracing have a point, what's being lost is that it is still firmly in enthusiast territory as of this time, and it needs more time still before the feature becomes a "must enable", let alone be the default. 

[RejZoR]

42 minutes ago, Dionyz said:

They are a indication of performance. That's what they care about. Meaning Rasterization over Ray tracing. There is a survey somewhere in this thread that that's what majority of the people prefer.

 

At the end of the day most people care about performance. Real talk people will disable ray tracing to have the fluid game play. (Ray Tracing is a cool feature, but when push comes to shove it's off)

No they are not. If you remove all the effects just to get 300 trillion fps, you're not an indication of ANYTHING. Not as target group and not as consumer in general. And especially not performance. Of course it'll run great when game looks worse than Quake 2 when it was released, but by today's standards of visuals.

 

Indication of performance is when you crank visuals to max and game still manages to run at stupid high framerate even on what's considered mid range card at the time. Like Doom 2016 ran on RX480 and GTX 1060 back in the day. And still looking amazing. Same with Doom Eternal, even though I'm not a huge fan of its dumb gameplay, but I can't deny their engine is spectacular. Looks amazing and runs at 100 trillion frames per second. And that IS an indication of actual performance. When game is cranked up to eleven and still runs great on almost anything.

[Senzelian]

Dumb move by NVidia, but totally fine in my book.

Of course the internet will go crazy, because how dare NVidia decides what to do with their own product, right?

[AndreiArgeanu]

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

I complained about how can they release a game that runs on 30fps on 1080p on the lowest settings in the most popular GPU (1060)

The 1060 is over 4 years old at the moment. A bit like having a GTX 760 in 2016 when the 10 series launched. Still, 4 years is great for a budget card. You can't expect a card to last forever just because it's popular.

[Eigenvektor]

22 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Of course the internet will go crazy, because how dare NVidia decides what to do with their own product, right?

It's not so much about the product and more about the blackmailing of reviewers. "You better review the product the way we want or you get no product to review". This is a strong message to other reviewers to better speak positively about the features Nvidia wants, or else… If this takes root you can say bye bye to "independent" reviews as they are.

[Senzelian]

1 minute ago, Eigenvektor said:

It's not so much about the product and more about the blackmailing of reviewers. "You better review the product the way we want or you get no product to review". This is a strong message to other reviewers to better speak positively about the features Nvidia wants, or else… If this takes root you can say bye bye to "independent" reviews as they are.

Yup, that's an issue. But that's why we got responsible reviewers that only share objective facts and opinions. If the companies dont want their product to be reviewed in a certain way, then that's their right and again, absolutely fine in my book.

[davide ferreira]

I decided on buying a rx 5600xt in detriment of a gtx 2060 because RTX doesnt ring any bells for me. Even better was finding the RX for 285 euro while the cheaper 2060 was 350+. I am part of the 70%. And so i voted with my wallet. RTX isnt a thing for me. I do see where DLSS is good. For those who dont care about graphic detail it brings free fps. But that is also the crew that would not care about RTX. Shitty move by nvidia.

[Eigenvektor]

1 minute ago, Senzelian said:

Yup, that's an issue. But that's why we got responsible reviewers that only share objective facts and opinions. If the companies dont want their product to be reviewed in a certain way, then that's their right and again, absolutely fine in my book.

I disagree. Reviewers should be free to review a product any way they want. A company should have no say about it in any way. Otherwise reviews are nothing more than another form of advertisement, making them useless for their intended purpose.

 

I also think it's a contradiction to ask for objective reviews and at the same time say a company should be free to object to their products being reviewed a certain way. That's not an objective review then. That's them being a company mouthpiece, censoring what they have to say on orders from the company.

[Moonzy]

40 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Reviewers should be free to review a product any way they want.

Yes, and his point still stands

A company doesn't have to agree with the way reviewers review things, and stop sending them review samples, of which they're not obligated to in the first place.

 

But in this situation where day 1 review gets most of the views, not having a day 1 review will impact their status as a reliable reviewer, in a time sensitive topic.

 

The day 1 review is kinda the problem, if you ask me, since reviewers have to rely on manufacturer to provide them the hardware to test, which if Nvidia is now dictating what can be and can not be said, means the day 1 "reviews" are nothing more than marketing.

 

While Nvidia said they're allowed to use AIB cards, Nvidia themselves prohibited AIB reviews until a few days after their FE cards review, which in itself a BS move by Nvidia already.

[Senzelian]

42 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Reviewers should be free to review a product any way they want. A company should have no say about it in any way. Otherwise reviews are nothing more than another form of advertisement, making them useless for their intended purpose.

I agree. I never said the opposite.

 

42 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

I also think it's a contradiction to ask for objective reviews and at the same time say a company should be free to object to their products being reviewed a certain way. That's not an objective review then. That's them being a company mouthpiece, censoring what they have to say on orders from the company.

True, but that's also not what I said.

 

My point is, that Nvidia can do with their product whatever they want to do.
The solution is simple: Do not accept a review sample from Nvidia if the conditions are a load of bullsh*t.

[Eigenvektor]

10 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

A company doesn't have to agree with the way reviewers review things, and stop sending them review samples, of which they're not obligated to in the first place.

Agreed, a company isn't obligated to send out review samples. But that doesn't make the move less scummy. They're essentially playing favors. You don't get a review sample unless you follow the company line. Imho that makes any review (even more) suspect that is based on a review sample.

 

Quote

But in this situation where day 1 review gets most of the views, not having a day 1 review will impact their status as a reliable reviewer, in a time sensitive topic.

Personally, I'll treat them as more reliable because they review a product they bought on their own dime instead of getting a sponsored product. But I get your point.

 

Quote

The day 1 review is kinda the problem, if you ask me, since reviewers have to rely on manufacturer to provide them the hardware to test, which if Nvidia is now dictating what can be and can not be said, means the day 1 "reviews" are nothing more than marketing.

I agree. The obvious solution would be for everyone to stop doing/watching day one reviews and wait for reviews of actual store-bought products. But I have little hope of that ever happening. The day one review is free advertising for both sides. But personally, it'll make "professional" reviews and reviewers even more suspect to me than they already are.

[Eigenvektor]

1 minute ago, DutchGuyTom said:

I think what @Senzelian is saying, and I can appreciate it, that it is a company's right what to do with their property (i.e. a legal right).

Yeah I get that. A company is free to decide who does and does not get a "free" review sample ahead of time. But sending free samples only to people who are favorable to your company is, imho, a bad move. Because it essentially says those other reviewers are biased.

 

1 minute ago, DutchGuyTom said:

This situation also reminds me of what the outrage would be if a government arbitrarily made decisions like deciding only to let news agencies that align with their political views to attend their press conferences.

I think it's more like, you're still free to attend the press conference, but everyone else gets the talking points a week in advance and can talk about what is going to be said at the press conference ahead of time. But only if they put what is going to be said in a favorable light. At the time of the actual press conference people will have lost interest and the lone publication that is critical of them is going to be drowned out/ignored.

[Jaxtek]

Nvidia must realize the only contact much of their potential market has with their cards are through reviewers and streamers since they created an artificial shortage.  Samsung yields have been problematic so they sold what they had for mining.  3070, 3060ti, 3090, 3080ti, all vaporware products as far as I can see.  Good luck with your preferred market. 

 

I can consider raytracing while looking at my GTX 1070ti all day, it means nothing because it doesn't exist.  I skipped the 2000 series because of their pricing methods.  I get that they have generation 2 of their RTX engine, but do their potential customers worry about that, or do they pay more attention to actual game performance?

 

As it stands, if a 6900XT becomes a physical thing I can put hands on, I won't need to pay attention to NVidia for another several years.  Is that a win for their marketing?

[D13H4RD]

20 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Yeah I get that. A company is free to decide who does and does not get a "free" review sample ahead of time. But sending free samples only to people who are favorable to your company is, imho, a bad move. Because it essentially says those other reviewers are biased.

On a technicality, NVIDIA is free to do whatever it deems fit as it's their product and they set the terms. There are indeed ethical can of worms here especially for a situation like this, but technically, they are allowed to do so. 

 

However, I don't think they quite expected this sort of response. That or they knew what they were getting into but chose to do it anyhow for whichever reason. 

[Analog]

18 hours ago, shaz2sxy said:

But DXR games are perfectly playable on 1080p/1440p which most gamers play on and without DLSS

 

The only time FPS would really matter is when it comes to competitive games.

 

every other game I want it looking the best and a good framerate

 

anyway the eyes cant see more then 60fps... (j/k)

 

I don't understand the obsession with frame rates over visuals.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not one of those 120fps snobs and I actually prefer image quality over max frames. I currently use a LG31MU97Z-B, which is an actual true 4K display running 4096x2160p and is capped at 60Hz. What I meant is that RT doesn't really make the any perceivable difference in current titles to warrant  its use and subsequently also the use of DLSS to compensate for the unplayable framerate that the game will be running at that resolution. 

 

If you are playing 1080p or 1440p it should be fine as you stated, yet again I don't know a lot of people who bought / are willing to buy a RTX 3080 or 3090 to pair it with a such a display.

[NeuesTestament]

If you don't review the cards in a way that Nivida likes you will now be at threat of being cut off from review samples. That is beyond scummy.

[YourRandomForumGuy]

I feel like NVIDIA is a big enough company that they know what is right and what is wrong... this move feels like its taken by the marketing or executive dept. and not engineers like Jensen as he has done enough to increase competition... not that I love NVIDIA and their scummy moves just that they improved performance in ampere without really any competition or as LTT's announcement reaction says that they are scares consoles I don't think its consoles I think they started getting scared that with consoles if AMD can be so competitive they surely have something bigger and badder for the PC.

[leadeater]

9 hours ago, DutchGuyTom said:

What valid questions? They review hardware, don't focus on raytracing performance which is what their community has said they don't prioritize. At the same time, they have made raytracing content and are even producing a video on raytracing performance in Cyberpunk which will likely highlight NVidia's superiority. 

 

Genuinely cannot see how their integrity is in question.

Anyone saying Hardware Unboxed does not cover Ray Tracing and RTX technology itself does not watch Hardware Unboxed product reviews and game optimization guides. It is covered in both, Nvidia is only annoyed because it's not a central focus of the review and the closing comments and conclusions does not align with Nvidia's wish for this to be more important than it actually is to the target customers. It's not even just Hardware Unboxed viewers, the majority of gamers are mid range buyers who just want to play games.

 

Trying to question Hardware Unboxed integrity on those grounds is unfounded and baseless, Ray Tracing is covered in an honest and impartial manor. Any reviewer bending to the wishes of Nvidia to cover a product in the way they want means they are not impartial making it no longer a product review and squarely a product advertisement, such is why LTT treat that content as Sponsored and clearly label it as such.

[Taf the Ghost]

3 hours ago, Senzelian said:

Dumb move by NVidia, but totally fine in my book.

Of course the internet will go crazy, because how dare NVidia decides what to do with their own product, right?

You've failed to understand this discredits every other reviewer. This is a massive problem.

[D13H4RD]

With all that said, I've never heard, let alone see Linus be this frustrated and upset in a long time. 

[Senzelian]

4 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

You've failed to understand this discredits every other reviewer. This is a massive problem.

You've failed to understand my point.