Does anyone care about the ethics of hardware manufacturing?

[ZippoLag]

Hi!

 

So, I know electronics manufacturing's fucked up in several ways (e.g. the mines of precious metals required being in war zones or impoverished areas; the cheapest labour for assembly being almost sweatshops in eastern countries; toxic waste and energy consumed in the manufacturing process..), however, some brands seem to be making honest efforts to reduce their negative impact in many ways so, I wonder: why aren't we as consumers paying more attention to this?

 

I totally get that it's complicated to include this information in reviews because brands will probably not like if you expose them and not send you any parts/machines to reviews, but.. Shouldn't we at least promote the ones with good reputation?

 

On that note, does anyone know which indexes are actually reliable, complete, and up-to-date? These are pretty much the only ones I could find for laptops:

https://thegoodshoppingguide.com/subject/pcs-laptops-and-tablets/

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/technology/shopping-guide/laptops

[Morgan MLGman]

-- Moved to General Discussion --

2 minutes ago, ZippoLag said:

so, I wonder: why aren't we as consumers paying more attention to this?

Why would we? It's not our job to regulate how companies operate. Normal people usually have more important stuff going on in their lives, than wondering about how their phone or laptop was made.

[pythonmegapixel]

I do care about this, and I am in fact an Ethical Consumer subscriber.

 

However, I think rather than worrying about the ethics of each OEM - all of which are, in general, pretty bad because hardware manufacturing simply isn't good for the environment or workers - the best thing you could do is just buy whichever computer will last you the longest.

 

The impact of one computer from an ethically bad manufacturer is still going to be far less than the impact of two computers from an ethically better manufacturer.

[pythonmegapixel]

2 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Why would we? It's not our job to regulate how companies operate. Normal people usually have more important stuff going on in their lives, than wondering about how their phone or laptop was made.

It is absolutely our job to regulate how companies operate. We have to "vote with our wallets".

 

If companies think they can still sell computers if they are exploiting low-paid workers and putting them in dangerous situations, then why would they do anything else?

[WereCatf]

5 minutes ago, ZippoLag said:

Shouldn't we at least promote the ones with good reputation?

Personally, I do not think literally ANY of the big manufacturers is ethical; they ALL do shady shit in one way or another.

 

6 minutes ago, ZippoLag said:

why aren't we as consumers paying more attention to this?

Because we're not in a position to do anything about it?

 

7 minutes ago, ZippoLag said:

however, some brands seem to be making honest efforts to reduce their negative impact in many ways

Or they may just be saying they're trying to do something. Or they're doing something in an effort to divert peoples' attention towards one thing in the hopes they wouldn't notice something even worse.

[lewdicrous]

If you're super vigilant about ethics and, say, won't buy anything that was made/sourced unethically, then you'd probably be living in the wild, foraging and hunting for all your supplies.

[Spotty]

5 minutes ago, ZippoLag said:

I wonder: why aren't we as consumers paying more attention to this?

Because most consumers either don't know or don't care. There are some that try to buy more ethically sourced products - or at least use that as justification for their purchase - but those people are in the minority. Most people just want the shiny new thing.

 

Frankly speaking there's not that much in the way of alternative options. The mining and processing of the chemicals required for batteries is quite damaging to the environment but modern devices simply need them in order to work. If you want to avoid cheap exploitative labour then you're going to need to pay significantly higher prices for products to cover the additional staff costs in manufacturing, something most people don't want to or are not able to do.

 

There are things you can do though. Donating or responsibly disposing of your old electronics is a good start. Don't just throw your old phones and laptops in the trash to end up in landfill.

[Morgan MLGman]

1 minute ago, pythonmegapixel said:

It is absolutely our job to regulate how companies operate. We have to "vote with our wallets".

 

If companies think they can still sell computers if they are exploiting low-paid workers and putting them in dangerous situations, then why would they do anything else?

I absolutely agree with the concept of voting with our money every day, but I judge the end product, not the way it was manufactured. Those things are subject to local laws.

Also I'm not sure you could say they are 'exploiting' anyone, as everyone who works for them does so voluntarily.

[spartaman64]

6 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I absolutely agree with the concept of voting with our money every day, but I judge the end product, not the way it was manufactured. Those things are subject to local laws.

Also I'm not sure you could say they are 'exploiting' anyone, as everyone who works for them does so voluntarily.

yeah when you hear they are playing workers 4 dollars an hour or 2 dollars an hour we might think omg thats so little how can they live off that but that might actually be an average/decent wage for where they are

[Windows7ge]

I would say that's because most of the people who buy said devices are naive as to where it came from or how it was manufactured and not enough people worry about other human life outside immediate family & friends.

[pythonmegapixel]

Accidental post - deleted

[Neftex]

@ZippoLag the links contradict each other

[pythonmegapixel]

14 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I absolutely agree with the concept of voting with our money every day, but I judge the end product, not the way it was manufactured. Those things are subject to local laws.

Often, those local laws are not good enough, or are ignored.

Governments will turn a blind eye to huge companies, because they know that if they didn't the business would just pack up and leave.
 

Quote

Also I'm not sure you could say they are 'exploiting' anyone, as everyone who works for them does so voluntarily.

Oh really?

 

Then why are there reports of workers in Asian electronics factories having their passports and state identification stolen so that they can't voluntarily escape? Why are there reports of them being forced into meeting unrealistic quotas under threat of dismissal? In fact, forget Asian factories, the latter of those two happens in European and American Amazon warehouses, and is well documented, and people still buy from Amazon, so they'll never stop.

 

It's not voluntary if you don't have another option. Often there is no other viable source of employment for these people.

[Lord Vile]

37 minutes ago, ZippoLag said:

Hi!

 

So, I know electronics manufacturing's fucked up in several ways (e.g. the mines of precious metals required being in war zones or impoverished areas; the cheapest labour for assembly being almost sweatshops in eastern countries; toxic waste and energy consumed in the manufacturing process..), however, some brands seem to be making honest efforts to reduce their negative impact in many ways so, I wonder: why aren't we as consumers paying more attention to this?

 

I totally get that it's complicated to include this information in reviews because brands will probably not like if you expose them and not send you any parts/machines to reviews, but.. Shouldn't we at least promote the ones with good reputation?

 

On that note, does anyone know which indexes are actually reliable, complete, and up-to-date? These are pretty much the only ones I could find for laptops:

https://thegoodshoppingguide.com/subject/pcs-laptops-and-tablets/

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/technology/shopping-guide/laptops

Well I mean intel committed to ethical production and resourcing of rare earth elements and apple is doing a ton of eco stuff and making a lot of its stuff from recycled material but y’know. Fuck Apple because they charge for proprietary OS’. How dare they charge for their IP instead of shoving Ads into the start bar and selling user data instead. 

 

[Morgan MLGman]

12 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

because they know that if they didn't the business would just pack up and leave.

 

12 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

Often there is no other viable source of employment for these people.

Oh I'm aware. I'm from a country that not so long ago was a total sh*thole. But is the alternative option that you yourself pointed out in the first quote better?

What's stopping the company from packing up and leaving if it doesn't like the new regulations? Those people would have no option at all.
I'm not defending the companies that do this, but you need to keep in mind the rules of the free market. That's precisely why manufacturing largely moved to countries like China or Vietnam, the new regulations and much higher employee expenses in their home countries drove those companies away, and it was still worth it even if they needed to ship the produced item halfway around the world.

[Quinnell]

I understand the sentiments of "it's not our responsibility to regulate companies" but I still believe we can vote with our wallets when possible.  Judging a product by its own merit but completely ignoring the way it was manufactured is one way to go about it, but I like to take the source of the product into account as well (Company, manufacturing methods, etc).  

 

That said, with around 80% of US imports coming from China, which is known for some of its unpleasant factory environments and lax environmental regulation, it limits how much we can 'vote with our wallets.'  So I think it's probably best to buy something that'll last you longer.

[PlayStation 2]

Sometimes, I think to myself that maybe Ted Kaczynski had a point with where the world headed with manufacturing.

[handymanshandle]

1 hour ago, handymanshandle said:

Sometimes, I think to myself that maybe Ted Kaczynski had a point with where the world headed with manufacturing.

I think with that at least right now in this very situation, we need to get a grasp on technology manufacturing to where it's not being made by effectively slave labor in another hostile country or hostile government running a country.

[handymanshandle]

3 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Well I mean intel committed to ethical production and resourcing of rare earth elements and apple is doing a ton of eco stuff and making a lot of its stuff from recycled material but y’know. Fuck Apple because they charge for proprietary OS’. How dare they charge for their IP instead of shoving Ads into the start bar and selling user data instead. 

 

Apple still makes their products in Foxconn factories which haven't had the best track record. I like Apple's designs but I wished they'd get away from making it in China.

[Lord Vile]

51 minutes ago, pinksnowbirdie said:

Apple still makes their products in Foxconn factories which haven't had the best track record. I like Apple's designs but I wished they'd get away from making it in China.

Guessing most places have multi year contracts etc it’s not something you can just pull out of 

[Intergalacticbits]

 

4 hours ago, Morgan MLGman said:

What's stopping the company from packing up and leaving if it doesn't like the new regulations? Those people would have no option at all.

Like he said. 

I think people everywhere need jobs and more jobs. Maybe things get better over time but only if they have jobs.

 

I'd say if you want to do something to help people economically, buy stuff.

Spend your money if you can afford to do so.

It makes jobs for people.

 

Someone's got to make it somewhere (hopefully here in the USA but where ever), Someone's got to truck it somewhere and someone's got to move it around a warehouse. Maybe someone's even got to stock it on a store shelf and ring it up at the register.

Plus everything else that goes along with all that and more that are jobs for people.

 

So I'd say to a rich person to don't be shy about buying stuff because people are suffering. 

Buy yourself a boatload of stuff you want because it helps people out by making more demand for workers.

Spend that money rich dude.  

 

I'm not rich but I'm going to spend what I get you can believe that.  

 

 

 

 

  

[papajo]

5 hours ago, ZippoLag said:

Hi!

 

So, I know electronics manufacturing's fucked up in several ways (e.g. the mines of precious metals required being in war zones or impoverished areas; the cheapest labour for assembly being almost sweatshops in eastern countries; toxic waste and energy consumed in the manufacturing process..), however, some brands seem to be making honest efforts to reduce their negative impact in many ways so, I wonder: why aren't we as consumers paying more attention to this?

 

I totally get that it's complicated to include this information in reviews because brands will probably not like if you expose them and not send you any parts/machines to reviews, but.. Shouldn't we at least promote the ones with good reputation?

 

On that note, does anyone know which indexes are actually reliable, complete, and up-to-date? These are pretty much the only ones I could find for laptops:

https://thegoodshoppingguide.com/subject/pcs-laptops-and-tablets/

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/technology/shopping-guide/laptops

You are asking too much from the masses... 

 

That is like the tip of the pyramid and consumers/nations dont care about basics (regulating huge international company policy)

 

It's like asking if somebody cares for homeless people having socks when nobody cares if there are enough decent paying jobs and ways for people to train in order to become useful in our society. 

 

 

There are issues that impact our lives in a far greater way yet nobody cares. 

 

e.g Intel and nvidia sandbagging for all those years just bean counting and overpricing their products. Doesnt just mean that lil timmy isnt going to get a decent PC if his father doesnt have a golden visa/mastercard. 

 

It also means that our progress as a society gets hindered because those companies are like the biggest out there and influence the tech 

 

For example there are scientists that use computer farms to find cures or other stuff of research, architects designer and so on and so forth all depended on their hardware performance. 

 

 

If all those groups had in their hands better hardware in a more affordable price they could find cures/vaccines sooner than later projects done faster and cheaper and so on and so forth...

 

But no Nvidia now has to sandbag for 2+ years and sell like the 3rd tier chip for 1000$ ..... (as when in the not so far past their flagship used to have a pricetag under 500$ and was indeed their 1st tier chip) 

 

If AMD wasnt to release ryzen CPU we would still have 4 cores at 500$ by intel and needed like 1000 to 2000$ to get crappy 6 and 8 core xeons to do our jobs... and so would the scientists and researchers and specialists of every type ..... 

 

Progress gets hindered as a whole.

 

And this is an issue that we (as individual consumer) could give a dime since little timmy or you and me need now 2000+ usd to make a half decent rig as where yesteryear we needed half of that money but even for matters as this one nobody seems to care (at least nobody that can influence things) 

 

And you are wondering about a "perfect society" issue as to why people don't seem to care how exactly the materials of their end product where sourced by the big companies... they dont care about matters of their immediate interest (microscopic side) that influence our society also macroscopically 

[PeachGr]

There is a sticker of <CF> that means conflict free on a really not many products.
Some of intel's and most of Apple's products are (allegedly)
Also check that

 
My favourite Canadian
Short and really interesting video

[handymanshandle]

50 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Guessing most places have multi year contracts etc it’s not something you can just pull out of 

its possible