Surface Day! - Surface Go 2, New docks, Surface Book 3, Headphones, Earphones

[hishnash]

14 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

That's really good to hear. I'm planning on upgrading my 2014 MacBook Pro in September. I'll have to give this a look when it comes out

Do consider the 16" MBP (if you nee something that size) it is an amazing machine. 

[Sorenson]

1 minute ago, hishnash said:

Do consider the 16" MBP (if you nee something that size) it is an amazing machine. 

That's the main thing i've been looking at, since I could use side card with my iPad. I also love Mac OS. The Surface just looks so cool. 

[suicidalfranco]

6 hours ago, Warin said:

I was seriously considering a Surface Pro 7, but wound up getting an 11" 2020 iPad pro.  Sure, I can't play Kerbal Space Program on the iPad, but it is just way more compact and I love iOS/iPadOS.

the only way ksp could run on a surface go is by dropping the res below HD, lowest detail possible and being content with a hard to maintain 30 fps performance

[Maticks]

I love my surface book 2, though part of me is glad that it is just a cpu upgrade and gpu change.

There is nothing more than a bit of a spec bump here.

 

I was kind of hoping with a refresh we would see more than 400 nits of brightness, i do find on the train and outside the office its hard to use with the screen not as bright as my ipad. That being said not a lot of laptops offer more than 400 but for such a premium device i was hoping a bit more in that department.

 

I dont find the battery to be that big an issue at least on the 15".

[Jet_ski]

20 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

One other final thing, I can't see the data on the docks unfortunately, but Microsoft did confirm that the power supply included for the SB3 has been upgraded to 127W (from 102W), so it won't have the same 'issue' of slight discharge/extremely slow charge while under 100% load on everything.

So you won’t be able to use your charger on a flight because it’s 27W above the limit. Beautifully done Microsoft.

 

Apparently the Surface Book 2 has a power drain issue and that’s why they’ve increased the wattage in the charger. They should have updated the drivers to better manage thermals and power consumption.

[Curufinwe_wins]

18 minutes ago, Jet_ski said:

So you won’t be able to use your charger on a flight because it’s 27W above the limit. Beautifully done Microsoft.

 

Apparently the Surface Book 2 has a power drain issue and that’s why they’ve increased the wattage in the charger. They should have updated the drivers to better manage thermals and power consumption.

Sigh. You literally can't win with some people. This isn't a driver issue. And making the laptop consume less power means literally replacing the components with shittier ones, nothing else. You can already use one of 4 power modes while plugged in, and the lower two can never exceed the old power rate, but the upper two *can* (sometimes).

 

No one checks the power limits on a flight, and most breakers are actually higher wattage but shared between a few ports. If you actually think that's a big deal, then buy one of the older 96/102W chargers for travel use. It will work perfectly fine. Personally, since I own a SB2, and on very rare occasions I've seen this situation occur, I'm actually thinking of trying to buy the 127W charger instead. But I'll wait to see if other people confirm it works or not.

 

Plus if you REALLY WORRY about travel use, the SB2 can be charged via it's usb-c port, and that port handles 65W maximum, so you can just use a universal usb psu for travel between phones and laptop. Just don't expect it to charge while in actual hard use. Those travel adapters are cheap and ubiquitous. My friend actually does that for work, just brings his usb-c charger for everything. 

 

 

EDIT: also this was and only is a *possible concern* on the 15in model. The 13 draws much less power due to the crappier gpu, and did so in the SB2 as well.

[GoodBytes]

Small updates which I forgot:

• Surface Headphone noise cancelling has been tweaked for office use, and has Qualcomm AptX support, and can now turn 180 degree, so you can now put them face down if you drop them around your neck
• Surface earbuds support 2 device pairing.
• Surface Go 2 new keyboard has now magnets like the newer keyboard of the Pro 7 and X

 

Correction:

• Surface earbuds are not noise cancelling.

Fun facts:

• Surface Go 1 was made by Intel apparently (well probably the internal main PCB). No info on the Go 2. That probably explains why it is not ARM based.
• Intel charges 120$ (at the retail level) more over the Pentium Gold for the Core M3. So probably 100-80$ for someone like MS, so it looks like the Core M3, Microsoft isn't making more money. Which is a shame for Core M3 which didn't get an update for almost 2 years old.

[Arika]

38 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Surface Go 2 new keyboard has now magnets like the newer keyboard of the Pro 7 and X

Is the sp7 keyboard different to the old surface pros? Don't they all have magnets? 

[Jet_ski]

1 hour ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Sigh. You literally can't win with some people. This isn't a driver issue. And making the laptop consume less power means literally replacing the components with shittier ones, nothing else. You can already use one of 4 power modes while plugged in, and the lower two can never exceed the old power rate, but the upper two *can* (sometimes).

 

No one checks the power limits on a flight, and most breakers are actually higher wattage but shared between a few ports. If you actually think that's a big deal, then buy one of the older 96/102W chargers for travel use. It will work perfectly fine. Personally, since I own a SB2, and on very rare occasions I've seen this situation occur, I'm actually thinking of trying to buy the 127W charger instead. But I'll wait to see if other people confirm it works or not.

 

Plus if you REALLY WORRY about travel use, the SB2 can be charged via it's usb-c port, and that port handles 65W maximum, so you can just use a universal usb psu for travel between phones and laptop. Just don't expect it to charge while in actual hard use. Those travel adapters are cheap and ubiquitous. My friend actually does that for work, just brings his usb-c charger for everything. 

 

 

EDIT: also this was and only is a *possible concern* on the 15in model. The 13 draws much less power due to the crappier gpu, and did so in the SB2 as well.

I’m just pointing out a design flaw. Most people who get the more powerful variants need the extra computational power they pay for. If someone’s getting one of these and fly or travel via trains they ought to know. (It’s my bad that I wrote my previous post like a hater  I’m working on that!)

Also they can throttle the hardware to maintain power consumption in certain scenarios. They don’t have to downgrade the hardware. That extra 5-10% of performance at the top uses substantially more power.

 

“Each pair of outlets at every row of three can support a maximum total of 225 watts per this certification, but there is "enough power" onboard for every outlet on average to deliver 82 watts to every outlet in the aircraft at any given time.” -the Atlantic

[Maticks]

1 hour ago, Jet_ski said:

So you won’t be able to use your charger on a flight because it’s 27W above the limit. Beautifully done Microsoft.

 

Apparently the Surface Book 2 has a power drain issue and that’s why they’ve increased the wattage in the charger. They should have updated the drivers to better manage thermals and power consumption.

The Power Draw issue is a bit fake, yes it does discharge the battery slightly if you push the CPU to 100% while pushing the GPU to 100%.

But if you change the Power slider from best performance to recommended, the Surfacebook does exactly what you describe, when it hits the power limit the CPU clock is dropped by around 400Mhz per core. It wont even dip on the battery.

If you slide to best performance you want 100% of everything Microsoft is saying they will give you it minus about 2% battery life per hour.

 

I slide mine to power save mode when i dock if my battery is really low in the morning. that way i know it tops more into the battery its full pretty quickly.

I like having the option, with something like a macbook you get what Apple said nothing more nothing less, they'd just throttle the processor constantly to maintain power limits and thermals.

[Curufinwe_wins]

56 minutes ago, Jet_ski said:

I’m just pointing out a design flaw. Most people who get the more powerful variants need the extra computational power they pay for. If someone’s getting one of these and fly or travel via trains they ought to know. (It’s my bad that I wrote my previous post like a hater  I’m working on that!)

Also they can throttle the hardware to maintain power consumption in certain scenarios. They don’t have to downgrade the hardware. That extra 5-10% of performance at the top uses substantially more power.

 

“Each pair of outlets at every row of three can support a maximum total of 225 watts per this certification, but there is "enough power" onboard for every outlet on average to deliver 82 watts to every outlet in the aircraft at any given time.” -the Atlantic

Yeah, so 99 times out of 100 it's fine (three outlets 225W). Limiting peak power draw is not a smart universal design, and we (myself and @Maticks above) already mentioned that it has explicit power modes that prevent drawing over that limit so Microsoft already did exactly what you are asking for on the SB2 and you proceeded to call it an issue/design flaw. Professionals who want that last bit of power want that last bit of power heh. All that matters really is having solutions available that aren't absolutely awful.

 

Again, if you want a lower power adapter to prevent it being an issue, buy a 30 dollar 65W USB-C charger. It works with the SB2/3 as well. This way the hardware can actually flex properly.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

Is the sp7 keyboard different to the old surface pros? Don't they all have magnets? 

Sorry I miss spoke.

I meant, "like the current Surface Pro models". I don't recall or can find quickly when the keyboard magnet (the one that helps keep the cover closed) was introduced.

I have the Pro 3 with the newer type cover, so it doesn't work as the Pro 3 doesn't have anything, but with a magnet or something metal I know there is one under the right side palm rest. 

 

[GoodBytes]

57 minutes ago, Jet_ski said:

I’m just pointing out a design flaw. Most people who get the more powerful variants need the extra computational power they pay for. If someone’s getting one of these and fly or travel via trains they ought to know. (It’s my bad that I wrote my previous post like a hater  I’m working on that!)

Also they can throttle the hardware to maintain power consumption in certain scenarios. They don’t have to downgrade the hardware. That extra 5-10% of performance at the top uses substantially more power.

 

“Each pair of outlets at every row of three can support a maximum total of 225 watts per this certification, but there is "enough power" onboard for every outlet on average to deliver 82 watts to every outlet in the aircraft at any given time.” -the Atlantic

I am confused, considering that the SB3 has a power supply that is larger, you complain about planes power socket... that is a flaw in the plane. What do you want Microsoft to do? put a Pentium Silver (aka: Left over Atom) inside with Intel integrated graphics to comply? Then you'll complain about performance.

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I am confused, considering that the SB3 has a power supply that is larger, you complain about planes power socket... that is a flaw in the plane. What do you want Microsoft to do? put a Pentium Silver (aka: Left over Atom) inside with Intel integrated graphics to comply? Then you'll complain about performance.

Given that apple manage to make the max spec 16" MBP be within the limits. I expect MS to do the same. It turns out you can build a laptop with a dedicated gpu and not go over on the power budget you just need to think about the power budget when you select your gpu.

[GoodBytes]

19 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Given that apple manage to make the max spec 16" MBP be within the limits. I expect MS to do the same. It turns out you can build a laptop with a dedicated gpu and not go over on the power budget you just need to think about the power budget when you select your gpu.

I am lost. What limit? Airplane power plug limits? If the system doesn't have the power it gets from the mains, it will draw the extra power from the battery. There is no magic to this. Apple is king of doing this. And if you don't do this, then the other option is lie to your consumers by downclocking the CPU by putting a more aggressive power saving profile. So I am really lost with what you are saying.

 

The Surface Pro 2 had a 48W power supply. Many, if not all, complained on how too big it was (despite its small size, in my opinion). So for the Pro 3, which uses the same CPU, they put a 36W one. Now, with the Pro 3, if you push the system to max, it consumes the battery, if the system is under load, it trickle charges the system only, so it takes ages to charge. People were happy, including reviewers who also complained about the Pro 2. I guess MS applied the same logic on the SB1 and 2, and they probably saw with the 2 that the market of this device has changed, and now the 3 includes a bigger one, as its target consumers prefer not to have this.

[hishnash]

25 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I am lost. What limit? Airplane power plug limits?

* Airplane
* Train

any sort of power plug you might use with a portable device, if you need more than 100W use a desktop.
 

25 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

If the system doesn't have the power it gets from the mains, it will draw the extra power from the battery.

if you use the charger that ships with the 16" that will full-fill the full power demand, you will not drain your battery even under heavy load.

 

it is important that the charger does not draw over the limit, since how AC power works if you draw over the limit the the only thing the socket can do is kill 100% of your power. So if you have a wall changer that pulls 102W on a train the socket on the train is likely going to stop providing any power. 

So a charger that can draw more than 100W is risky and should not be used on public transport.

 

Also worth noting with the MBP unlike many other recent laptops the GPU and CPU will perform just as fast when disconnected from power as when connected to power. A lot of the Nvidia mobile GPU this year seem to struggle to draw enough power to run in battery so then end up performing worse than the MBP when not on battery. 

This seems a little odd If you only want to have good perf when attached to battery why not get a small eGPU.

 

---

A Note on AC current limiters:

Limiting the current flowing to an AC socket is a complex task.

* The simple way is to drop the frequency, and the dirty way of doing this is just turn it of for a faction of a second, this works fine for a heater etc but not for electronics.

* another way is a risitor/chock system, but this produces a shit tone of heat

* or you can go to DC power then Back up to AC (this is costly, and produces heat)

* or you can reduce the voltage, again this will not work for electronics

so the only easy way to limit power on an AC socket is to stop providing it. Normally this is done with a timeout so that the socket re-sets itself after some time...

[GoodBytes]

Some benchmarks provided by Windows Central of the Surface Go 2 Core m3 CPU model.

 

Note that the Pentium Gold model, while the latest model, is only a slightly faster (same but higher clock) than the older version. The old version which the Go 1 has, the 4425Y,  has a CPU clock  of: 1.6 GHz (it has no boost), and the Go 2 Pentium Gold (4425Y) runs at 1.7 GHz (still no boost frequency). So we can assume identical real life performance, so no interest in benchmarking, it is essentially identical chip with identical performance.

 

The Surface Go 2 Core m3, uses the model 8100Y, which runs 1.10 GHz and has a Boost frequency of: 3.40 GHz.

 

Windows Central gets the following results:

3DMark

• Surface Go 2 - 2,554
• Surface Go    - 1,808

Geekbench 5

• Surface Go 2 - 847 (single core) - 1,609 (multi-core)
• Surface Go - 376 (single core) - 947 (multi-core)
• Surface Pro 7 i5  - 1,191 (single core) - 4,441 (multi-core)
• Surface Pro 6 i5 - 904 (single core) - 3,440 (multi-core)

Geekbench 4

• Surface Go 2 - 4,028 (single core) - 6,804 (multi-core)
• Surface Go - 2,078 (single core) - 3,934 (multi-core)
• Surface 3 - 1,078 (single core) - 2,777 (multi-core)
• Surface Pro 7 i5  - 5,245 (single core) - 17,350 (multi-core)
• Surface Pro 6 i5 - 4,287 (single core) - 14,031 (multi-core)

CrystalDiskMark 

• Surface Go 2 (SSD) - 1,630 MB/s Read - 373 MB/s Write
• Surface Go (SSD) - 1,185 MB/s Read - 133 MB/s Write
• Surface Go (eMMC) - 260 MB/s Read - 145 MB/s Write
• Surface 3 (eMMC) - 149 MB/s Read - 33 MB/s Write
• Surface Pro 7 (SSD) - 2,040 MB/s Read - 809 MB/s Write

Source and other devices benchmarked: https://www.windowscentral.com/surface-go-2-core-m3-benchmarks

 

So the obvious choice is to get teh Core M3. Yes it costs more, but the premium (which goes to Intel, if compare the chip price with the device price increase) is clearly a must, unless you really know what you are getting, and know the device limitations, or on a budget, and you'll give it to your kid or something which might break and want to limit the loss where you'll spend the save money on a case, and/or extended warranty with accidental protection and/or save for replacing the screen when/if it gets smashed. Or you a student or someone who already have a powerful system at home or something, and you don't plan to do programming or anything, just mostly note taking, listen to music, and have a limited web surfing experience. Basically you really know what you are getting.

[Commodus]

3 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

So the obvious choice is to get teh Core M3. Yes it costs more, but the premium (which goes to Intel, if compare the chip price with the device price increase) is clearly a must, unless you really know what you are getting, and know the device limitations, or on a budget, and you'll give it to your kid or something which might break and want to limit the loss where you'll spend the save money on a case, and/or extended warranty with accidental protection and/or save for replacing the screen when/if it gets smashed. Or you a student or someone who already have a powerful system at home or something, and you don't plan to do programming or anything, just mostly note taking, listen to music, and have a limited web surfing experience. Basically you really know what you are getting.

That sounds right.  My concern is that Microsoft is doing what it did the first time around: it's making a $399 model so it says it can compete with the iPad, but the system you actually want to buy costs considerably more even before the keyboard.  So your $399 Surface Go quickly becomes a $730 Go, and now you're wondering if you shouldn't get an iPad Air (or a decent laptop) instead.

[captain_to_fire]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

So the obvious choice is to get teh Core M3. Yes it costs more, but the premium (which goes to Intel, if compare the chip price with the device price increase) is clearly a must, unless you really know what you are getting, and know the device limitations, or on a budget,

It probably would’ve been better if Microsoft used the SQ1 chip made by Qualcomm in the Surface Go. 

[GoodBytes]

6 hours ago, Commodus said:

That sounds right.  My concern is that Microsoft is doing what it did the first time around: it's making a $399 model so it says it can compete with the iPad, but the system you actually want to buy costs considerably more even before the keyboard.  So your $399 Surface Go quickly becomes a $730 Go, and now you're wondering if you shouldn't get an iPad Air (or a decent laptop) instead.

Well, the iPad keyboard+mouse cover is 300$ US. So if you want a "comparable" device, the iPad Air will cost 800$ US.

 

To be clear, people who got the Surface 3 (non-Pro), knowing what they'll get (ie: not buy the Surface 3 and expect to render videos, they are happy with it). That said, my comment was more for this community. I know, for example, that my parents would be super happy with teh base Surface Go 2. They'll never complain about performance. If you were a student and you don't have 200 tabs in Chrome open, and looking more for really a device for note taking, listen to music while studying, watch videos, maybe typically 1080p, and write your homework/papers, then it will deliver. Great also for a device you want to bring in meeting to only take notes or use to host a presentation, and do meeting calls on (actually the mic and camera is very good compared to any laptop you can get. The large sensor (which it can afford to due to the large bezels, helps a lot for MS to provide this).

 

But if you plan to always watch 4K videos, and want this instant experience, which I know most people here seek, 200 tabs open in Chrome, gaming on the go (despite the integrated graphics), and want the smoothest experience, or/and do software development while expecting speedy experience, and maybe edit a small video, a while plan to keep the device for a nice 4-5 years before you complain about performance not being as snappy as it once was, then the Core M3 is what I recommend.

[Dabombinable]

19 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Well, the iPad keyboard+mouse cover is 300$ US. So if you want a "comparable" device, the iPad Air will cost 800$ US.

To be clear, people who got the Surface 3, knowing what they'll get (ie: not buy the Surface 3 and expect to render videos, they are happy with it). The Go is much faster than the Surface 3, and I am not hearing complaints. If you want a media consumption device, but want to stick to Windows, the Pentium D is fine, and if you don't care about the improvements of the Go2, you can buy the Go1 for a nice discount, or even used but in good/excellent condition for a fraction of the price. I am considering more for the people here, who want to do more then note taking, listen to music, and plan to keep the device for a long time, while ensuring a speedy fast and responsive experience at all times. 

Don't you mean Pentium Gold? D where the Netburst jokes.

[GoodBytes]

6 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

It probably would’ve been better if Microsoft used the SQ1 chip made by Qualcomm in the Surface Go. 

It is slightly better than the SQ1 chip running Win32 Geekbench under emulation mode for the single thread performance. Benchmark for the device in the link.

Here is the Surface Pro X benchmark  results from Windows Central, and here is my Surface Pro 3 results (i5-4300U - 8GB of RAM - 2 Core CPU (4 Thread) - 1.9GHz - Boost: 2.9GHz  (typically more sustained boosts: 2.5GHz)), which I am using daily and doing software development on it:

 

Geekbench 5

Surface Pro X - 725 (Single Core) -  2,819 (Multi Core) -- Note: Geekbench 5 is not avail. for Win ARM64, and so its running through Win32 emulation.

Surface Pro 3 - 602(Single Core) -  1,186 (Multi Core)

Surface Go 2 - 847 (single core) - 1,609 (multi-core) -- Core M3 model

 

So the Core M3, is actually faster than my Pro 3, which is good. For what I do, I would classify my Pro 3, still able to do the job, but time for an upgrade (which I don't plan to do this year, as I have a desktop PC (that is 10 years old), keyboard, monitor that needs upgrading, as well as a desk itself.. too much money). In other words, does the job, it is adequate, but can be better. But remove programming  the OS runs fast, everything responsive. Chrome (well, I use the new Edge Chrome, which runs a bit better) runs great, no issue... that said, I don't have 200 tabs open. Call me old school, but I use bookmarks and Collections making my tabs to be under 10, and most of the time 3 to 5 only.

[GoodBytes]

12 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Don't you mean Pentium Gold? D where the Netburst jokes.

Oops! I meant Pentium Gold!!!! :facepalm:

I don't know why I said D. Corrected!

 

Thanks!

[Commodus]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Well, the iPad keyboard+mouse cover is 300$ US. So if you want a "comparable" device, the iPad Air will cost 800$ US.

 

To be clear, people who got the Surface 3 (non-Pro), knowing what they'll get (ie: not buy the Surface 3 and expect to render videos, they are happy with it). That said, my comment was more for this community. I know, for example, that my parents would be super happy with teh base Surface Go 2. They'll never complain about performance. If you were a student and you don't have 200 tabs in Chrome open, and looking more for really a device for note taking, listen to music while studying, watch videos, maybe typically 1080p, and write your homework/papers, then it will deliver. Great also for a device you want to bring in meeting to only take notes or use to host a presentation, and do meeting calls on (actually the mic and camera is very good compared to any laptop you can get. The large sensor (which it can afford to due to the large bezels, helps a lot for MS to provide this).

 

But if you plan to always watch 4K videos, and want this instant experience, which I know most people here seek, 200 tabs open in Chrome, gaming on the go (despite the integrated graphics), and want the smoothest experience, or/and do software development while expecting speedy experience, and maybe edit a small video, a while plan to keep the device for a nice 4-5 years before you complain about performance not being as snappy as it once was, then the Core M3 is what I recommend.

That $300 keyboard only works with the iPad Pro, not the iPad Air, so you're looking at $660 (for an iPad Air with the Smart Folio Keyboard) rather than $800.  Still not trivial, but hey, it's cheaper than a Surface Go 2 combo that would likely have worse performance!

 

There are definitely people for whom the base Surface Go 2 will be fine, although my concern is that the ceiling for what it's capable of is so low.  There shouldn't be a $400 Windows computer with 4GB of RAM in 2020, even if it is a tablet.  It's a device that will do certain jobs just fine, but there's so little room to grow that I could easily see students and meeting-goers wishing they'd spent more, if just to get the next step up for the Pentium model.

[williamcll]

So apparently some people are getting cracked monitors soon after receiving their surface, microsoft has offered free screen replacement as a result.