Surface Day! - Surface Go 2, New docks, Surface Book 3, Headphones, Earphones

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, williamcll said:

So apparently some people are getting cracked monitors soon after receiving their surface, microsoft has offered free screen replacement as a result.

Oh no.. not this problem again... Microsoft had this issue ages ago with the Surface Pro 2 (and I was one of them).

 

That said, they did express ship a new unit (retail box), (they paid shipping both directions, if you wonder), and with the procedure in place of needed to only send the device and not the retail box, I did end up with a second charger and pen (pen used to come with the device, but was cheap thing in cheapo plastic). So I guess, in this case, if nothing changed from my experience ages ago, they'll get to keep the provided charger, and get another one with the new retail box. Considering that an official charger is 50-100$ depending on wattage you need for your Surface model, that is nice "gift" for the inconvenience. And if you have to return the whole thing (which might be the case), well sucks.

 

Anyway, the new one had no problem, if you wonder. I don't know if this kind of problem is because the glass size isn't cut to absolute perfection by the manufacture of the panel (as it is all one piece with the display) and gets compressed on the sides of the body of the device, so anything that happens, including just temperature change it breaks the glass as there is no room to expand, or slight pressure of the screen, or something else. I guess we will never know... but I am interested in knowing.

 

[saltycaramel]

Why in the Surface Go 2 ad video they didn’t show when you have to dismiss Avast (or whatever free antivirus you use) alerts and windows updates?

 

Why didn’t they show a kid messing up the system or a mom in need of troubleshooting whatever mess happens inside a legacy-oriented decades-old x86 OS that is Windows?

 

How about the fact that nowadays ARM processors have specific tweaks happening  very close to the bare metal (ARM assembly) to make Javascript faster and that’s why apple devices destroy JS benchmarks? (relevant because JS is the fabric of the modern web, mostly)

 

That’s a netbook with a touchscreen...iPad is a tablet...the 8th gen cheap 10.2” iPad with A12 later this year + Logitech Combo keyboard&touchpad + iPadOS 14 + updated MS office suite (with cursor support) is gonna tear apart the Surface Go 2...

 

Sorry had to be said.

 

The Surface Book, that I like, it’s a daring design and you get a detachable tablet “for free”, that has no apple equivalent.

 

But SurfaceGo2 vs iPad, I’m a bit opinionated..

[saltycaramel]

5 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Geekbench 5

Surface Pro X - 725 (Single Core) -  2,819 (Multi Core) -- Note: Geekbench 5 is not avail. for Win ARM64, and so its running through Win32 emulation.

Surface Pro 3 - 602(Single Core) -  1,186 (Multi Core)

Surface Go 2 - 847 (single core) - 1,609 (multi-core) -- Core M3 model

 

 

 

For reference the A12 (iPad Air 2019, iPad Mini 2019, probably iPad Cheap 2020 in 3-4 months) in GeekBench 5 does

single: ~1100

multi: ~2800

 

iPad Cheap 10.2” is 329$

Logitech Combo backlit kb+touchpad is 150$

[GoodBytes]

36 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Why in the Surface Go 2 ad video they didn’t show when you have to dismiss Avast (or whatever free antivirus you use) alerts and windows updates?

 

Why didn’t they show a kid messing up the system or a mom in need of troubleshooting whatever mess happens inside a legacy-oriented decades-old x86 OS that is Windows?

 

Microsoft devices doesn't come with subsidized trialware to reduce the system price to consumers. Windows Update will update by itself, and handle the finishing off the update when you restart/shutdown your system. It is no different than on your Apple device.

 

Also, Windows, since ages, has parental controls, and accounts system. So a kid that doesn't know what he is doing, can't "mess up the system". 

Quote

or a mom in need of troubleshooting whatever mess happens inside a legacy-oriented decades-old x86 OS that is Windows?

What dimension do you come from?

 

Quote

How about the fact that nowadays ARM processors have specific tweaks happening  very close to the bare metal (ARM assembly) to make Javascript faster and that’s why apple devices destroy JS benchmarks? (relevant because JS is the fabric of the modern web, mostly)

Heuumm... no... no they don't. JS performance, like any other programming language,  is all about good coding paradigms and algorithms. And in the case of JS, its engine running the program. Java, for example, has an awful runtime system (JVM) in term of performance in my opinion, but Google made its own, and it is significantly/drastically faster (see apps on Android, they dont' take 20 years to load on a super computer, and app performance is excellent). Back to JS, every web browser has its own engine. Some are better than others. Google made a superb one, and is even used outside of the the web browser world (see Node,js as a popular example).

 

Now yes, Apple specifically, who makes their own CPU and can sale to itself at cost, reduce the price for the consumer, especially that its not tied to a manufcature like Intel that price gouge consumers since ages, COULD make their CPUs extra special by optimizing the performance of areas that a popular benchmark software uses to maximize the benchmark score. Or, with the OS, change the CPU behavior when it detects a benchmark and ago above specs. That is all possible... we don't know, and I don't think we will ever know. Then again, Apple is this massive company, with mass number of highly talented engineers that they most likely not have to do any of that. And performance is maximized as they have full control of the device. They make the hardware, the software and the frameworks that applications MUST use. So they could tightly integrate and optimize things. Software needs to do A, CPU can be designed  to be really good at doing A. CPU does B really well and fast, then software will not C but rather implement B as it is better at it.

 

Microsoft, like Google, they don't have this luxury. You have separate companies all working in their things, all thinking that their solution is best, and somewhere, sometimes, things meet and performance is maximized.

 

 

Quote

That’s a netbook with a touchscreen...iPad is a tablet...the 8th gen cheap 10.2” iPad with A12 later this year + Logitech Combo keyboard&touchpad + iPadOS 14 + updated MS office suite (with cursor support) is gonna tear apart the Surface Go 2...

Ok, soooo buy the iPad, lol!

 

Quote

But SurfaceGo2 vs iPad, I’m a bit opinionated..

2 different devices with different purpose. Same with the Surface Pro vs iPad.

They look alike, but that is about it.

[saltycaramel]

The ARM assembly optimization for Js is true though...like this guy puts it

 

And it shows...ARM processors in Apple devices, while being generally overpowered, they punch way above their weight in JS...

 

 

 

 

About the rest, that was a bit of an hyperbole (and I wasn’t implying that MS installs trialware, but that non-techy people generally install a free AV that nags them) to say that I don’t see a tablet with a desktop OS being integrated in daily life in that seamless way portrayed in the ad (on the kitchen table, sofa or in the garden)...that’s a bit misleading to me and I see the iPad as the superior option (not to mention with 10 years worth of actual tablet apps)...iPadOS can get more flexible (as it dramatically did in the last 12 months by adding usb mass storage, a file browser, mouse support, dualshock/xbox_controller support, etc.) and capable, whereas under the hood of x86 Windows there will always be layers and layers of legacy undesirable complexity...

 

The real “luxury” that Google and MS can’t afford in this case is going back in time 10 years and tell their past selves to have an in-house silicon strategy for the post-x86 world...and in the case of MS also a strategy for a no-legacy-strings-attached post-x86 successor to windows...not easy though, as seen with Windows RT and now Windows “meh” on ARM...apple used the iPhone as a trojan horse and head start for iPad development and adoption... (to think that originally 15+ years ago the iPad was planned to come out before the iPhone...that would have been a mistake...)

 

So to recap, I’m comparing the SG2 to an available alternative in that form factor (especially now that iPads got trackpads) and casting some doubts about how MS markets it and people may perceive it...lucky the kid that gets an iPad + Logitech combo kb + Dualshock4 + Apple Pencil instead of a SG2...”different purpose” but up to a point, a lot of overlapping for many users in the intended target market..

 

As for S.Pro and S.Book, it gets more complicated, overlapping requires a lot of cherry picking of usage scenarios and I couldn’t say with a straight face that the iPad Pro could be an all-around contender to those...maybe in a couple of years, or maybe never (there’s a reason ARM Macs are coming, after all)..

[GoodBytes]

42 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

The ARM assembly optimization for Js is true though...like this guy puts it

 

And it shows...ARM processors in Apple devices, while being generally overpowered, they punch way above their weight in JS...

Like said, there is a middle ground that gets reached. You think that Intel and AMD doesn't do things that favors what is popular? 

ARM didn't go "Oh let's make iPhone's faster". JS is widely used in the industry in and outside of web site development, and outside of iPhone.

It is just a coincidence that things matched with Apple more than anything. All in all, Apple has only ~30% smartphone market in the world. And pretty much the rest is Android.

 

42 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

About the rest, that was a bit of an hyperbole (and I wasn’t implying that MS installs trialware, but that non-techy people generally install a free AV that nags them)

That is not true. Non-techy people are smarter than you give them credit. They may follow recommendations given... if they are poor then that is a different story. Also, each person have different values and sense of level of security that they need. Enterprise, for example, typically want security over performance, and want ultra aggressive and over the top A/V solutions and security measures. Heck, some companies outright disable the USB port of their laptop that they give to their employees. You are stuck with the shitty keyboard and trackpad from the 500$ system they got. They are that paranoid. Which in my opinion, only boost BYOD's, like with smartphone back in the days when Blackberry was a thing, and now the companies really have no control in comparison, and security of the device could be compromised. But now we are entering a whole different topic of IT and the rest of employees, and I'll argue that IT should work with the company employees and not against them. But anyways...

 

42 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

to say that I don’t see a tablet with a desktop OS being integrated in daily life in that seamless way portrayed in the ad (on the kitchen table, sofa or in the garden)...that’s a bit misleading to me

You can perfectly do that with Windows. I don't know what you do with your system, but Windows runs perfectly fine for such tasks. I have already done similar things. Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with past devices or Windows, but it works fine, and most people don't have issues. But I can agree that many OEMs release garbage, either to maximize profits, like HP selling premium priced laptops with 0.30$ for a pack of 100 trackpads, and jam pack the system with trialware to maximize profits and poorly coded, outsourced on the cheap, HP software. Not to mention imbalanced system specs (super slow RAM for example, premium system but a 5400 or worst 4800 RPM HDD, instead of 7200RPM HDD, let alone an SSD). But that is HP... don't buy HP... simple as that. And yes, I know that gives a serious hit on the image of Windows, and yes, that is one of the reason why Microsoft made Surface line. It is show that, yea, Windows powered PC can run great.  And yes, Surface has an impact on the industry. Heck, HP now sports acceptable trackpads now on their premium devices, and reduce the crap pre-installed. Dell started to make nicer systems... I mean they both have budget systems, and you get what you get, but I am happy the race to the bottom price total garbage is all over. That said, Lenovo now makes crap consumer products, Acer is still Acer, and so on. But again, you get what you paid for. If you look the highest specs for the lowest price, well it won't end well for you. There is not really a "deal" in consumer electronic, beside paying the Surface or Apple tax, but regardless in both cases you have a unique devices, and you do have high quality device that will last for many years to come.

 

42 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

and I see the iPad as the superior option (not to mention with 10 years worth of actual tablet apps)...iPadOS can get more flexible (as it dramatically did in the last 12 months by adding usb mass storage, a file browser, mouse support, dualshock/xbox_controller support, etc.) and capable, whereas under the hood of x86 Windows there will always be layers and layers of legacy undesirable complexity...

I disagree. Many apps on the iPad are still iPhone apps just stretch. Apple is loosing developer interest to go above and beyond and make things polish for Apple. That said, they tend to get higher budget than on Android, as its user base as a tendency of spending money on the apps, while Android users, tend to not too as much. Windows users have no problem paying up, but dev interest has been nearly completely lost  on Windows due to poor treatment and caring of them by Microsoft for many years ages ago. Microsoft is trying to fix that, and fix their image, and while they can't erase the past, they are trying their best. When Microsoft dev excitement will rise, this is where you'll see their Store and UWP platform that they are working on, be used, and better quality apps. Surface is one of the many many many steps that the company is doing.

 

42 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

The real “luxury” that Google and MS can’t afford in this case is going back in time 10 years and tell their past selves to have an in-house silicon strategy for the post-x86 world...and in the case of MS also a strategy for a no-legacy-strings-attached post-x86 successor to windows...not easy though, as seen with Windows RT and now Windows “meh” on ARM...apple used the iPhone as a trojan horse and head start for iPad development and adoption... (to think that originally 15+ years ago the iPad was planned to come out before the iPhone...that would have been a mistake...)

10 years ago, Microsoft had a CEO which pissed off its developers, including but not limited to putting sticks in the wheels of its own in-house developers, and a CEO with lack of vision. You know the Surface Neo? That was essentially the idea of Courier, a product that ready for production (before the iPad) with a CEO saw no point in it and cancelled it. You have a CEO that said that brown is a perfect color for its Zune MP3 player because it goes well with brown briefcase. Yea... how did the company survived this long, I have no idea. (If you say XBox, than that was only approved because it comes from Bill Gates, it was seen as "his pet project", same for Surface). Glad the company is in much better hands now. And heck, I am not the only one with this view, look at its investors and shareholders. It was going up, Apple style under Bill Gates, then a flat line for years, and now with the new CEO, with the company new direction, things are moving and growing. Heck, many ex-Microsoft employees started to return to the company after leaving it in the past. 

 

So no, having a time machine and telling them that, would not convince Microsoft CEO. Asa for Google, I don't know.. I don't know enough about the company to comment. 

 

As for file manger, let's not kid ourselves here... it is VERY limited, and the device still depends on iTunes, despite Apple efforts. Windows is completely independent.

 

42 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

So to recap, I’m comparing the SG2 to an available alternative in that form factor (especially now that iPads got trackpads) and casting some doubts about how MS markets it and people may perceive it...lucky the kid that gets an iPad + Logitech combo kb + Dualshock4 + Apple Pencil instead of a SG2...”different purpose” but up to a point, a lot of overlapping for many users in the intended target market..

Well, Surface runs Windows, and you have the library and power of Windows. I have this device, which I can not only watch movies and TV shows, surf the web, listen to music, have my recipes on hand, all via touch, but I can also do software development for its own OS or another, such as the many Linux based ones. You are an illustrator and doing art? Well guess what, you have powerful software you can get on it. (Photoshop on iPad, as many will point out that it has this there, isn't the full version. It lacks many features). And my devices has ages of support with best backward compatibility you can find, and possibly to upgrade to newer version again and again... heck, my AMD Athlon 64 X2 2GB of RAM system... yea a 15 year old system (May 31st will be, officially, 15 years old) runs Windows 10. It had Vista, 7, 8 and 10! Does Apple has a product that offer such support? Can I install iOS 13 on the first gen iPhone? Nope you are stuck with iOS 3.1, and no app runs on it anymore. Got the iOS 13 on your latest iPad, but want to run that app that the dev stop working on ages ago... well, it might not even be availible, let alone work on it.

 

Can I do what I said I do on an iPad? No. Then again, the iPad has the superior interface for ease of navigation and get to your things with greater ease via touch. Not to mention with its flowy fully GPU rendered interface the device is more inviting to the user making them less stressful to new comers when using the device and being more open to read what is on screen and discover. Something that Microsoft can only dream about having. Having all apps touch centric, makes you not worry what best app to use to have a great experience with touch. And with strong dev support, you have a collection of high profile apps with excellent quality and polish. You are limited left and right on what you do, but the user expects that, and so are fine, especially that the OS focuses on the essentials to give the user, balancing enough power to enjoy their device for their entertainment needs, but not too much where the user is too crowded with options. In addition, all the apps are on its Store with a very good reputation of avoiding malware of all kind.

 

Both are excellent devices. Both I can recommend without hesitation. But both have their purposes, and they are different. They might cross in some areas, but the focus is really different. 

 

42 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

maybe in a couple of years, or maybe never (there’s a reason ARM Macs are coming, after all)..

ARM Windows PC is already here.

[saltycaramel]

About that..let’s wait for the “excitement” to kick in to say it’s here to stay (and not a new RT)...so far, it’s “kinda here”, with Windows “meh” ARM on the Surface Pro “meh” X and a “meh” selection of native ARM apps plus 32bit-only emulated x86 apps...ironically ipad has native Photoshop and Windows ARM has slow emulated x86 Photoshop...in 40 days at wwdc we’ll know what’s up with ARM Macs development..imagine if ipad ARM apps could be easily ported to ARM Macs..

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

About that..let’s wait for the “excitement” to kick in to say it’s here to stay (and not a new RT)...so far, it’s “kinda here”, with Windows “meh” ARM on the Surface Pro “meh” X and a “meh” selection of native ARM apps plus 32bit-only emulated x86 apps...ironically ipad has native Photoshop and Windows ARM has slow emulated x86 Photoshop...in 40 days at wwdc we’ll know what’s up with ARM Macs development..imagine if ipad ARM apps could be easily ported to ARM Macs..

 

What does all that mean? quotes and meh every second word. It's like reading the script for one of those 90's teenage sitcoms.

 

 

[saltycaramel]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

What does all that mean? quotes and meh every second word. It's like reading the script for one of those 90's teenage sitcoms.

 

 

Sorry I thought I was on the forum of a company that indulged in internet/meme/bro-talk (unironically or not), tongue-in-cheek puns and clickbaiting. 

I’ll try to adhere to higher standards of style in the future.

(not a native English speaker btw)

 

To put it in more adult terms, the state of the Surface Pro X and its accompanying software (ARM OS and programs) proved to be a little underwhelming so far. Plus the age old question that killed Surface RT is still valid: “why shouldn’t I just buy the x86 version and call it a day?”. (at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’m curious to see how Apple is going to address this in the upcoming x86>ARM transition for Macs...my idea: give users incredible hw perks in exchange of switching architecture...be it biometrics, display tech, out of this world battery life, weight, etc.)

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

Sorry I thought I was on the forum of a company that indulged in internet/meme/bro-talk (unironically or not), tongue-in-cheek puns and clickbaiting. 

I’ll try to adhere to higher standards of style in the future.

(not a native English speaker btw)

 

I don't care about poor English, mine is average at best. I Just couldn't understand what you were trying to say.

3 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

To put it in more adult terms, the state of the Surface Pro X and its accompanying software (ARM OS and programs) proved to be a little underwhelming so far. Plus the age old question that killed Surface RT is still valid: “why shouldn’t I just buy the x86 version and call it a day?”. (at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’m curious to see how Apple is going to address this in the upcoming x86>ARM transition for Macs...my idea: give users incredible hw perks in exchange of switching architecture...be it biometrics, display tech, out of this world battery life, weight, etc.)

 

Because companies can't evolve new tech without releasing products that verge on unwanted by certain parts of the tech community.  For example a lot of people got very vocal about their dislike of RTX when it launched.  The reality is, working well or not,  this product is not for everyone and they can only develop so much on the test bench, they need to get products into users hands before they find out if something is only good on paper or not.

 

 

Plenty of RT's sold, it's just the overall product wasn't quite ready so it didn't take off.  But given multiple companies (apple, asus, MS) keep pushing ARM development for desktop/laptop replacement devices,  their consumer research likely points to demand for this type of product, it just a matter of getting them right.  With regard to Apple,  If they are smart they will be watching what MS and asus are doing with ARM powered laptops/surface devices to find out what aspects sell and what hold them back.  

[Rolling2405]

On 5/6/2020 at 7:02 AM, GoodBytes said:

 

Panos Panay posted hos short presentation for the reveal

I feel like the thing with the daughter was planned

[saltycaramel]

 

[suicidalfranco]

9 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

 

called it

[Commodus]

15 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

 

It seems like the iPad clobbers the Surface Go 2 in most areas, especially Microsoft's base model. Yeah, you can run full creative apps and games on the Surface, but it's so slow that you wouldn't want to.

 

Really, this is underscoring x86's problems in mobile devices.  It's too slow when it has comparable power efficiency, and too power-hungry when it's actually faster.

[saltycaramel]

Another good real-life video, the frustration starts at 7:34

 

 

[GoodBytes]

40 minutes ago, Commodus said:

It seems like the iPad clobbers the Surface Go 2 in most areas, especially Microsoft's base model. Yeah, you can run full creative apps and games on the Surface, but it's so slow that you wouldn't want to.

It's not meant for this. And keep in mind that the app presented on the iPad lacks A LOT of functionality from the Windows version. Not to the mention that iOS version of the app, clearly is using the GPU for its interface and application tasks, while the Windows version is full on CPU rendered. So it is normal that the experience is lack luster. When Adobe will make a full on UWP version of the app, then we can compare.

 

Quote

Really, this is underscoring x86's problems in mobile devices.  It's too slow when it has comparable power efficiency, and too power-hungry when it's actually faster.

The issue is not x86 per se. It is Intel overpricing their CPUs and sleeping due to lack of competition.

Microsoft really has 2 choices: Go ARM on the Go (but Qualcomm also overcharges their premium CPUs), or work with AMD on a new APU.

[Commodus]

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

It's not meant for this. And keep in mind that the app presented on the iPad lacks A LOT of functionality from the Windows version. Not to the mention that iOS version of the app, clearly is using the GPU for its interface and application tasks, while the Windows version is full on CPU rendered.

The problem is that the Go 2 is seemingly not meant for much besides the web (but not too many tabs!), writing in Word and watching Netflix, and its GPU would be poorer even if it was used for creative apps.  I look at it this way: would you rather have some Lightroom or Photoshop functionality that runs well, or all of it running unusably slow?  Software can improve; mediocre hardware is stuck that way forever.

 

20 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

The issue is not x86 per se. It is Intel overpricing their CPUs and sleeping due to lack of competition.

Microsoft really has 2 choices: Go ARM on the Go (but Qualcomm also overcharges their premium CPUs), or work with AMD on a new APU.

Hard to say for sure if it's overpriced, but I'll agree that the Go would be a much more compelling package if you could get, say, the Core m3 chip at something closer to the $399 model's pricing.  And yeah, semi-custom AMD seems to be the way to go if Microsoft is going to stick with x86. 

[saltycaramel]

27 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

It's not meant for this.

 

 

What about the laggy experience in every interaction as shown in the last video from 7:34 onward.

That’s no creative apps or stuff it’s “not meant for” (incidentally, since at the same price and form factor the iPad can do that stuff in some usable capacity which is totally fine for the target..that may sound a bit like “you’re holding it wrong” or “it’s a feature”).

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

The problem is that the Go 2 is seemingly not meant for much besides the web (but not too many tabs!), writing in Word and watching Netflix.

You forgot also note taking and meetings. But yea, that it's purpose, really.

 

Quote

, and its GPU would be poorer even if it was used for creative apps.

It's not much, true, but looking how UWP native apps runs super smoothly on the Pentium Gold, it is plenty for basic color filters and various basic filters and effects, and smooth interface.

 

Quote

I look at it this way: would you rather have some Lightroom or Photoshop functionality that runs well, or all of it running unusably slow?  Software can improve; mediocre hardware is stuck that way forever.

If you need the power, and want to stay with Surface and form factor, get the Surface Pro. Yes it costs more, but that is the reality of things. Don't think I don't agree with you. Microsoft has no attention of releasing a product that will flop.

 

Now, It's not like Microsoft isn't trying... their latest attempts are Windows 10X (lots of work before it gets released) and Windows 10 for ARM... but until you have people supporting these platforms to get things going, we are stuck with Intel, and we will never move from there. Personally, I support ARM based machines. I want it to take off the ground. I want that when you go to a store, you have Intel, AMD and ARM to pick from. This will revive the old days of competitions where each generations of a product you had massive performance increases, you had a lot of various innovations being added as well. It was exciting years, until Intel won. then things get sonly exciting when AMD shows its head. Recall, AMD Athlon X2 when that first came out, while Intel was STILL pushing its Pentium 4's 6 years in a row. It made Intel, (after battling on how single core is all you need) they release a dual and quad core CPUs later after you started to see AMD OEM PC in store shelves. Then, Intel went back to sleep once AMD could not get an answer from Intel offerings. It's shameful. Really sucky for consumers.

 

Maybe, AMD might have something this time around, but so far, they don't, from what I can see (or they are not interested at the moment). Perfection doesn't exist, and as the mass tend to look at enthusiast for advice, who seek overkill devices and perfection (which I don't blame them, we all want to provide the best to those who seek help)... we will never move. Companies will not support a platform without users, there is no business case to do so. The old days of companies going wild and supporting a platform with their eyes closed are long gone.

 

Quote

Hard to say for sure if it's overpriced, but I'll agree that the Go would be a much more compelling package if you could get, say, the Core m3 chip at something closer to the $399 model's pricing.  And yeah, semi-custom AMD seems to be the way to go if Microsoft is going to stick with x86. 

Well, I won't deny the Surface tax. But seeing that there is no competitor by OEM of the Surface Go (1 or 2), to me suggests that they probably evaluated and saw that they can't really do better. Sure they could use plastic and cut things to reduce costs, and not have the Surface tax. But probably they saw that the drop in quality and experience won't justify the price drop for the identical specs due to the high costs of CPUs.

 

Apple is a big winner in terms of CPU price, as they make them... for Apple that is a 15-20$ chip, and not 161$ (yes! - https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/192786/intel-pentium-gold-processor-4425y-2m-cache-1-70-ghz.html) for a chip that costs, probably 5-10$, where the rest is profit (R&D is already paid for for these low in chips as they are just cut down of fancier chips)

 

So sadly, if you want Windows, the price is high. But one cannot pretend that iOS is identical to Windows.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

What about the laggy experience in every interaction as shown in the last video from 7:34 onward.

That’s no creative apps or stuff it’s “not meant for” (incidentally, since at the same price and form factor the iPad can do that stuff in some usable capacity which is totally fine for the target..that may sound a bit like “you’re holding it wrong” or “it’s a feature”).

I don't know... Looking at the Surface Go 1 reviews (which has the same CPU but 100MHz less and a slightly lower GPU), that kind of experience is not mentioned.

 

Here are 2 examples:

 

Maybe a Windows Update was going on the back on his system? I don't know.. I am just guessing.

 

[Commodus]

24 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

So sadly, if you want Windows, the price is high. But one cannot pretend that iOS is identical to Windows.

Agree with the rest for the most part, so focusing on this.

 

iOS definitely isn't identical to Windows, but here's how I see it: iOS is catching up to Windows faster than Intel's x86 chips are catching up to Apple's ARM chips.  It's funny to think that the iPad Pro just two years ago felt like it was nowhere close to being the laptop replacement Apple wanted it to be.  There are still significant shortcomings now, but it's a whole lot closer.

[GoodBytes]

31 minutes ago, Commodus said:

iOS definitely isn't identical to Windows, but here's how I see it: iOS is catching up to Windows faster than Intel's x86 chips are catching up to Apple's ARM chips.  It's funny to think that the iPad Pro just two years ago felt like it was nowhere close to being the laptop replacement Apple wanted it to be.  There are still significant shortcomings now, but it's a whole lot closer.

I agree. And I think Microsoft knows this. And not only Apple, but Google with ChromeOS as well. And that is probably why they made a partnership with Qualcomm to get ARM based CPUs capable of running Windows 10, plus made the Surface Pro X to showcase their first CPU offering, and is working on Windows 10X (especially now that they announced that they will make 10X no longer be dual screen device exclusive). I think they are trying to have all their options open. I won't say that they are in panic mode, but definitely feels the pressure.

 

If Qualcomm can make a low cost chip that runs Windows 10 on ARM Win32 translation layer well, that is a big victory for Microsoft. The low cost chip would allow low cost device, say a Surface Go type device, and considering that you have the new Edge web browser native on ARM (which is basically Chromium), Firefox, VLC, Netflix, Office... despite the performance drop form Win32, if apps like Spotify can run acceptably, then who cares, it caters to the same market the current Go users is targeting, and opens doors for lower cost devices.

 

Which ever OS fits best; Windows 10X or Windows 10, it can packaged with a device and released. Probably 10X for low cost educational PCs, and Windows 10 full with faster chips on consumers.

If AMD makes low powered, low cost, yet powerful APU, then this is a solution for Microsoft by winning time, or be a success if AM can continue with this.

If Windows 10X can take off, it will make devs focus on making UWP framework version of their application, or go full in, and have a full fledge, proper, software, which will benefit all users, on all Windows based platforms.

 

So anyways, hopefully we have something soon, and hopefully that will kickstart desperately needed competition. We all win, including companies, who will start reducing their profits for employees to get expertise, increase wages to keep their current experts from leaving to the competitor.

[Uttamattamakin]

On 5/6/2020 at 9:21 AM, captain_to_fire said:

The VGA port alone is a good reason to get it because my university refuses to replace those installed VGA projectors and even for those rooms with 1080p TVs, none of them have USB C (at least I’m not aware of any TV with USB C port). The struggle is real when you’re about to present in class but there’s no working dongle. 
 

I wonder if this will work on an iPad Pro because many USB C hubs that works on a Mac is a hit or miss on the iPad Pro unless it’s MFi certified. 

So true.  There's nothing like giving an advanced early-mid 21st century presentation on a system that was updated in 2005 and will not be until it litterally breaks so bad it cannot run Chrome.

 

That Surface go looks like it would be IMHO the perfect computer for a kid to use for school work.  With the stylus they can draw and write.  Pencil and paper math homework could be a thing IF that feature was standard to most computers. 

[saltycaramel]

1 hour ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That Surface go looks like it would be IMHO the perfect computer for a kid to use for school work.  With the stylus they can draw and write.  Pencil and paper math homework could be a thing IF that feature was standard to most computers. 

 

“perfect” not so much

 

A base 329$ iPad (soon to become even faster with the A12 Bionic cpu within the next 3-4 months) + a 38$ Paperlike screen protector (the grip is divine, it even sounds like writing on paper) + a 69$ Logitech Crayon (similar tech to the Apple Pencil minus pressure sensitivity, cheaper) + a 149$ Logitech Combo Touch Keyboard Case with Trackpad for iPad (7th generation) would serve the kid much better for that purpose...that’s 585$, let’s add 8$ for GoodNotes 5 and 10$ for PDF Expert with editing...we’re at 603$...the kid also gets Pages+Numbers+Keynote for free (they can export to MS Office formats; they have a cloud equivalent in browser for use on other computers), also iMovie and GarageBand for free..

 

Base (slow) Surface Go 2 is 400$ + 100$ keyboard + 100$ pencil...again 600$...can’t stand a chance with the above setup for note taking, hundreds of specific tablet apps, etc. the kid can even get into coding and learn the basics with Pythonista (Python), Scriptable (javascript), Swift Playgrounds (Swift), etc. (of course Windows is better for this, but, just saying, learning and some fully local coding can be done even on iPad)

 

Plus plentiful ad-free IAP-free gaming for 5$/month with Apple Arcade and a bluetooth ps4/xb1 joypad..

 

Can’t see how anybody could see a better value in going with the Surface Go..

[saltycaramel]

iPad, even the cheapest model, is real time computing...you do stuff —> stuff reacts...can’t be compared to Windows on those low power CPUs and bottom of the barrel eMMC storage (forgot to mention, iPads have an apple-made SSD controller and fast flash)..