Canadian Government threatens the "Big 3" cellular provider to cut their prices by 25% ... Or else!

[RonnieOP]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Sure they are, because having the ability to communicate is an essential capability. Most houses here don't even have land lines, it's an age thing mostly but cellphones are the household phone. Affordability and cost of living is important, some things are not actually a luxury time despite it being so in the past.

 

When is the last time you book a bus a reasonable distance? One way can easily be an hour while not actually traveling very far, it's why walking can sometime be a time competitive option to the bus.

 

Then also consider that they do have a car, great can get there in 30-40 minutes. How much does parking cost for you? Few hours here is anywhere from $6-$20. So maybe like $3-$4 fuel and $10 parking each time you want to find and apply for a job, better not do that every day.

So does everyone live 30-40 minutes away from anywhere with wifi? And they also dont have internet at home? (again I dont know canada, im legit asking if internet access at home is a rare thing)

 

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yes that totally is.

Not really.

 

your at a disadvantage if you dont have a car, if you arent as educated, if you arent as skilled, your availability, etc. Like i said theres plenty of factors that could play in to being at a disadvantage.

 

Also maybe im missing something? But looking at telus and bells website their plans are not crazy expensive.

 

$75 a month for unlimited talk, text, and 10gb of high speed data (and then slow access after that) is not crazy horrible. I was expecting some crazy prices.

 

 

[RonnieOP]

5 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

@RonnieOP Canada heavily regulates telecommunication, Internet was rules a basic service years ago ;

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/crtc-internet-essential-service-1.3906664

 

They also already dictates what cellphone providers can charge around data overages and roaming fees, among other things ;

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/phone/mobile/codesimpl.htm

 

I'm always surprised that people don't know Canada is a heavy handed socialist country, hell, in my province, milk price is regulated, gaz price is regulated, beer price is regulated, they even force restaurant to use computerized billing so that everything is reported to the government for each and every sale ... And I don't know how many other things!

 

Canada is a lot closer to Europe when it comes to government regulation and involvement.

 

Telling mobile providers to lower their price is something they 100% have the power to do, not saying that they SHOULD, but they certainly can.

Ok if you already have the laws on the books that makes alot more sense.

 

I was just thinking out loud. I dont know the laws up there.

 

Yeah so clearly they have the power to do it. I dont agree with it, but thats their laws.

 

EDIT: I dont wanna get the thread derailed with political opinions so I wont comment on those anymore.

 

But on the topic of costs I really was expecting it to be higher then that with how people were talking.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

your at a disadvantage if you dont have a car, if you arent as educated, if you arent as skilled, your availability, etc. Like i said theres plenty of factors that could play in to being at a disadvantage.

All things governments are directly responsible for. Public transport, education etc.

 

At the very base level what you said governments don't do are literally what they are and their purpose, everything above that as in the specifics of how is up to opinions and political views etc but that is their very foundation purpose. Heck it's even in your constitution under multiple different amendments.

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

be broken into fairly big regions to be economically viable for operators, but not big enough to hamper competition with high prices or spectrum monopolization.

 Better yet skip the auction. Make the providers lease the Spectrum from the government. The Goverment stays in control. The government can ensure the spectrum is being used properly. 

[RonnieOP]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

All things governments are directly responsible for. Public transport, education etc.

 

At the very base level what you said governments don't do are literally what they are and their purpose, everything above that as in the specifics of how is up to opinions and political views etc but that is their very foundation purpose. Heck it's even in your constitution under multiple different amendments.

Yes.

 

Public transportation, Public Education.

 

Those are their programs that they fund and control.

 

They dont get to tell greyhound (idk if you have that in Canada. but a private bus service) what they get to charge.

 

Public education is free for everyone. But that doesnt mean Private school cant charge money and have an enrollment policy.

 

 

Edit: shouldve said "shouldnt get to tell" because apparently in Canada by law they do.

[leadeater]

29 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

So does everyone live 30-40 minutes away from anywhere with wifi? And they also dont have internet at home? (again I dont know canada, im legit asking if internet access at home is a rare thing)

I don't think you have really thought it through much. If someone is needing to travel to get free internet access they aren't taking a laptop (wouldn't have one, likely), so public computer access is a requirement for that. A cellphone is not a great device to apply for jobs however it's perfectly fine for looking for one and further related communication.

 

But what I see time and time again is people such as yourself arguing that cellphones or internet access is not an essential service or should not be classified as a utility, complain about regulation, pricing etc without consideration to the effects these things actually have on real people and the reality of life.

 

If something is unaffordable a lot of people just won't have it, be internet access or cellular service and it is well within a governments mandate to make sure such services are affordable and accessible to everyone, as much as possible. There's always a balance and not everyone has the same idea of the middle ground so at an individual level it's very likely people are not going to agree on such things, such is why we have elected officials and government agencies to assess the opinions of the populous as a whole and take those in to consideration when making laws and regulations.

 

It comes down to making sure that the prices and terms are actually fair, pure cost is not the only factor if the service is not actually realistically usable or there are other extra charges.

 

Like @wkdpaul mentioned for himself I am also in one of the most regulated countries in the world yet have one of the highest standards of living, great economic opportunities for businesses but on typical rhetoric we should be the poster child for the regulation hellscape littered with corporation failure. Since that has not happened, we do regulate internet and cellular pricing btw, these kinds of fears usually are overstated.

[WkdPaul]

32 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

EDIT: I dont wanna get the thread derailed with political opinions so I wont comment on those anymore.

 

But on the topic of costs I really was expecting it to be higher then that with how people were talking.

lol I get it, but to give you an idea, even the Conservatives (our equivalent of the Republicans) we're heavy handed when using the CRTC and forced mobile providers, ISPs and cable providers to change things to favor the consumer back when they were in power a few years ago, even if they are extremely pro business and anti-regulation, they still have "socialist" views and reflexes, that's Canada for you! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

NOTE ; Not trying to stir up a political debate, I'm just trying to provide perspective on how Canada tends to handle things.

 

 

15 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Yes.

 

Public transportation, Public Education.

 

Those are their programs that they fund and control.

 

They dont get to tell greyhound (idk if you have that in Canada. but a private bus service) what they get to charge. They dont have the same controls over Private schools as they do Public schools.

We have regulations for private transport, yeah ... lol I never really looked into it, but I know it's regulated to some extent since some "transport sharing" business had issues with regulatory agencies a few years ago (a place where you can offer a spot in your car when going in between cities or provinces).

 

Private schools 100% fall under the education ministry (in my province) and so are also government regulated (and even subsidized to some extent), also, in my province, most Universities are private entities but are 100% told how much they can or can't charge, recently, a local University lost a LOT of government subsidy because they decided to start charging for their MBA program, which is illegal under the current regulation.

 

They didn't back out, so the government pulled money out of the University funds (the amount the MBA students paid + some other amount for not complying).

 

Again, we're a heavy handed socialist country

Edited March 8, 2020 by wkdpaul

[RonnieOP]

Just now, wkdpaul said:

lol I get it, but to give you an idea, even the Conservatives (our equivalent of the Republicans) we're heavy handed when using the CRTC and forced mobile providers, ISPs and cable providers to change things to favor the consumer back when they were in power a few years ago, even if they are extremely pro business and anti-regulation, they still have "socialist" views and reflexes, that's Canada for you! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

NOTE ; Not trying to stir up a political debate, I'm just trying to provide perspective on how Canada tends to handle things.

 

 

We have regulations for private transport, yeah ... lol I never really looked into it, but I know it's regulated to some extent since some "transport sharing" business had issues with regulatory agencies a few years ago.

 

Private schools 100% fall under the education ministry (in my province) and so are also government regulated (and even subsidized to some extent), also, in my province, most Universities are private entities but are 100% told how much they can or can't charge, recently, a local University lost a LOT of government subsidy because they decided to start charging for their MBA program, which is illegal under the current regulation they didn't back out, so the government pulled money out of the University funds (the amount the MBA students paid + some other amount for not complying).

 

Again, we're a heavy handed socialist country

Thanks for the info. I find all that deeply disturbing. but thats a whole different subject lol

 

Ill never have to worry about it though as Canada will never even let me in to visit haha.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

most Universities are private entities but are 100% told how much they can or can't charge

Same thing here, which is why international students are so important for us. Average students fees for domestic is around $6k/year and international is $40k/year, clearly we want more of one than the other 

 

Not saying this is a good situation though.

[WkdPaul]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

* snip *

Same here, we even got a public college get criticized for having an English only campus (in a French only province), but that campus is focusing on foreign students only, and the price foreign students are paying is also almost 10 times what a citizen would have to pay.

[GoodBytes]

2 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Thanks for the info. I find all that deeply disturbing. but thats a whole different subject lol

Our Conservative goverment is like the fear socialite movement that the Republican in the US likes to portray the Democrats to be, which is funny a bit, as it gives the image that Canada is this socialist country. However, Canada is conservative compared to EU countries(UK (well... technically not part of EU anymore), France, Germany, Finland, and more), so now when you think about countries like Venezuela which is truly socialist.. it really puts things into perspective where one country is compared to others.

 

While Canada has it's flaws, US too. I guess you can say that our issue that we have with mobile carriers, is similar to ISPs issue that the US has. (Mind you, it is also an issue here too, but not to the same extent).

 

2 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Ill never have to worry about it though as Canada will never even let me in to visit haha.

Canada welcomes all, even those who wants to immigrate.

That I can assure you that. Unless you got banned somehow... (would that be in the Guinness book of record?  )

 

[RonnieOP]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

Canada welcomes all, even those who wants to immigrate.

That I can assure you that. Unless you got banned somehow... (would that be in the Guinness book of record?  )

 

Im a felon. Canada has some really strict rules when it comes to people with criminal records.

 

Ive seen people denied entry for DUIs that are 20 years old.

 

Technically there are ways around that but chances are very very slim.

[GoodBytes]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Same thing here, which is why international students are so important for us. Average students fees for domestic is around $6k/year and international is $40k/year, clearly we want more of one than the other 

 

Not saying this is a good situation though.

Hang on, you are missing something.

While our fees are low, it is because the goverment subsidizes educations, including private sector, hence why the goverment sets rules. Which of course, we pay through our taxes. But most universities and colleges relies on donations more than international students. International student fees is still free compared to the US.  Schools in Canada are not operated as a business (despite being one), they are operated as schools. So a focus on school access and quality of educations is put as a priority over profits.

[GoodBytes]

7 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

-snip-

Oh, intresting. That is surprising to me that we have this.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/henry-chang/america-canada-dui_b_12344116.html

 

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Hang on, you are missing something.

While our fees are low, it is because the goverment subsidizes educations, including private sector, hence why the goverment sets rules. Which of course, we pay through our taxes. But most universities and colleges relies on donations more than international students. International student fees is still free compared to the US.  Schools in Canada are not operated as a business (despite being one), they are operated as schools. So a focus on school access and quality of educations is put as a priority over profits.

For context I work at a university. While yes government funding is received what you actually get per student is less than an international student and it comes with conditions like maintaining pass rates, no bums on seats cash grabs, and they also have very tight control over how we get to spend the money. 80% of funding must be allocated towards capital expenditures and 20% on operational.

 

International student fees are received as soon as they pay, not contingent on them passing, and can be spent in anyway we like. Donations and research grants usually come with stipulations on how the money can be spent too.

 

Not really for this topic but if you like I can actually supply the full breakdown of income and expenditure for where I work, name of redacted of course for my own benefit, as that is public information.

 

Edit:

Also it's why there was such a big panic over just 37 Chinese students (~35,000 total) withdrawing their enrollments because they can't enter the country, recent events. Was around 2 million dollar loss.

[RonnieOP]

13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Oh, intresting. That is surprising to me that we have this.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/henry-chang/america-canada-dui_b_12344116.html

 

Yeah iirc Australia is the same way with criminal records.

 

Kinda ironic in AUS case lol.

 

It is what it is. No offense to CAN but its not exactly on the top of my list for vacation spots. And while I think the DUI rejections are kinda dumb I have a worst record so I dont fault them in my case.

[Dabombinable]

23 hours ago, mr moose said:

Didn't you just claim you were on a plan that charged for txt?  Aldi's free calls and txt plan is only $15. 

Key word was "pre-paid".  $30 lasts me for 6 months (with some rolling over each recharge).

[schwellmo92]

On 3/7/2020 at 2:16 PM, mr moose said:

Swap to aldi,  all plans include free txt and most calls.  Uses the telstra network. 

Woolworths Mobile > Aldi

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, schwellmo92 said:

Woolworths Mobile > Aldi

Looks like you get the same for your dollar with aldi having cheaper options.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

I feel mixed about this: while the lowering of costs and the lock out of monopolization of spectrum's is awesome no matter how anyone spins it, I do not exactly have nice things to say about the CRTC. It holds some very strange nationalistic laws that partially contribute to the popularity of VPNs up here.

 

As for the ongoing conversation about Canada's fiscal-political matters, I have A LOT to say on that matter. TLDR; I very strongly disagree with the claims made here of Canada being a "heavy handed socialist" nation.

[Commodus]

8 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

I feel mixed about this: while the lowering of costs and the lock out of monopolization of spectrum's is awesome no matter how anyone spins it, I do not exactly have nice things to say about the CRTC. It holds some very strange nationalistic laws that partially contribute to the popularity of VPNs up here.

 

As for the ongoing conversation about Canada's fiscal-political matters, I have A LOT to say on that matter. TLDR; I very strongly disagree with the claims made here of Canada being a "heavy handed socialist" nation.

The CRTC is definitely a mixed bag, but I look at it this way: at least it's not the current FCC, whose dominant commissioners are clearly on the side of carriers rather than the public (and may even be on the take).  If it was handling a similar situation in the US, it'd practically argue that carriers should charge more.

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, Commodus said:

and may even be on the take

Its not secret that these people have worked for the telecoms before accepting their postions. Also, many of the members of the FCC go to work for telecoms as lobyists after they are done with their work at the FCC. 

 

2 minutes ago, Commodus said:

it'd practically argue that carriers should charge more.

The FCC doesnt really have control with mobile data. Because the internet falls under Title 1 which ties their hands a bit. The current FCC leadership doesnt want control over the internet. Thats why Net Neutrality was repealed. So this debate would most likely never happen in the US. Not unless the FCC put the internet under title 2 again. Which wont happen with this adminstration. 

 

On a secondary note. The US has plenty of competition. Remember besides the big 3.5 carriers (I only count Sprint has half because their network is garbage at best). We have MVNO's that lease network time from the big guys. With all the diffrent MVNO's you have tons of options to choose from, all at diffrent price points. Now if we could do the same with Wired ISP's and create most competion on that front. 

[Kisai]

On 3/6/2020 at 1:04 AM, wkdpaul said:

Bell Canada does offers an unlimited data plan (*) for $65 !!

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

* = It's a 10GB plan, after that, you're throttled to 500Kbps lol

 

And it's only for BYOD (bring your own device).

 

Telus tried to sell me one for $75. (It's only $5 more than what you pay now), I was like "uh what I would really like is for you to honor the original 10GB promo from 2017 for $60."

 

Screw them, screw them all. All the "unlimited" plans are just the previous data capped plan, just now they won't charge for overage, they will just throttle your bandwidth down to dialup levels.

 

[Kisai]

On 3/6/2020 at 10:00 PM, Tristyn said:

The reason cellular coverage is so expensive in Canada is because of the large geography and low population density.

 

The number of cell subscribers per square kilometer of coverage is among the lowest in the world.

 

Some Canadian cities are hundreds of kilometers apart and you have cell coverage the whole way between.

 

Each cell tower is expensive and is a 10 - 20 year return on investment (without the govt trying to force them to have competitors use their equipment for pennies on the dollar)

This is a BS claim. This is the exact same claim the carriers both in Canada and the US use for not having coast to coast coverage. They have had 20 years to fill in those coverage gaps, and have chosen not to.

 

Go look at a coverage map. No carrier actually offers coverage everywhere, and in Canada, Rogers is the main beneficiary of how things work. If you have a Bell phone, but live in BC, you are absolutely not using "Bell" towers, as just one example. Between all four carriers, none of them offer coverage everywhere in BC, in fact there are huge swaths of zero coverage just an hour outside of Vancouver. So don't rely on your cloud-based services once you leave Metro Vancouver, they are useless.

 

The coverage gaps on Highway 1 and Highway 3 are especially ridiculous since they're the main routes from Alberta and the US into BC. Highway 5 (Coquihalla) is actually a freeway, and yet, large coverage gaps between Hope and Vancouver. Telco's only put service up where it's profitable. It's not profitable to have towers where few people live. That's the only excuse, and it has to end. It is not like NWT where some areas can only be reached seasonally on the ground.

 

 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

This is a BS claim. This is the exact same claim the carriers both in Canada and the US use for not having coast to coast coverage. They have had 20 years to fill in those coverage gaps, and have chosen not to.

 

 

I You know it's BS when you can see Australia has genuinely really good coverage and no where near the same density of customers.  If it was an ROI issue then Australia should have a really crap mobile network yet it doesn't (unless you're with vodafone).