Canadian Government threatens the "Big 3" cellular provider to cut their prices by 25% ... Or else!

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

No point. My current pre-paid "plan" is cheaper for data and text - with the later being used most of the time (data is only used in emergencies, or for internet access on my DS Lite). Admittedly they'd be cheaper if I made heavy use of phone calls (not that many go for more than 2min anyway). Plus it is also running from Telstra's network (a blessing and a curse if I'm over at my Mum's)

Didn't you just claim you were on a plan that charged for txt?  Aldi's free calls and txt plan is only $15. 

[WkdPaul]

6 hours ago, Tristyn said:

There is nothing stopping a competitor from getting investors, loans ect and building their own network. its expensive, it takes decades to build a nation wide network.  But the big 3 did it and started doing it decades ago.  They worked hard for what they have and should not be forced to share equipment that is not even paid off yet.

 

How would you like it if you bought a Bugatti and the Gov't says that it would be too hard for your neighbors to buy their own so you have to cut a key for all your neighbors and they only have to pay you gas money?

 

You would re-think buying the Bugatti

That's an extremely bad analogy!!!

 

Plus, the big 3 are offering corporate packages, where they charge almost double what they offer for consumer packages, while having worse support (you think Bell customer service sucks? Wait until you talked to Rogers about a link down to a store ... I've had them straight up lie just to get me off the phone, more than once !).

 

Lowering prices for small data cap plans isn't going to tank their business. If some providers can offer small data cap plans for under $30, then the big 3 should be able to do it also.

[RonnieOP]

6 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

That's an extremely bad analogy!!!

 

Plus, the big 3 are offering corporate packages, where they charge almost double what they offer for consumer packages, while having worse support (you think Bell customer service sucks? Wait until you talked to Rogers about a link down to a store ... I've had them straight up lie just to get me off the phone, more than once !).

 

Lowering prices for small data cap plans isn't going to tank their business. If some providers can offer small data cap plans for under $30, then the big 3 should be able to do it also.

But just because they "should be" able to do it does that mean the government should be able to force them to?

 

They took the risks, put in the work, and made their company part of the "big 3".

 

Unless its government funded i dont see why they should be able to tell them what they can charge. 

 

Having a cell phone data plan isnt a life necessity. People dont need it to live.

 

Where does it stop? Are they going to tell other businesses what they can or cant charge?

 

If i value my time and effort of making a product at $100 is it fair that an entity that did literally none of the work to tell me "no its worth $50".

 

I can see the prices arent the best but then dont use them. 

 

 

[Commodus]

19 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

But just because they "should be" able to do it does that mean the government should be able to force them to?

 

They took the risks, put in the work, and made their company part of the "big 3".

 

Unless its government funded i dont see why they should be able to tell them what they can charge. 

 

Having a cell phone data plan isnt a life necessity. People dont need it to live.

 

Where does it stop? Are they going to tell other businesses what they can or cant charge?

 

If i value my time and effort of making a product at $100 is it fair that an entity that did literally none of the work to tell me "no its worth $50".

 

I can see the prices arent the best but then dont use them. 

 

 

Mobile data is quickly becoming a necessity, especially for those people that can't justify both a phone and a PC.

 

And importantly, the whole point of competition regulation is to spot and address abuse, especially when it's in a market with very few companies.  If all three major carriers in Canada are price gouging, often in direct response to (if not collusion with) each other, where do you go?  Alternatives like Freedom Mobile and Videotron only cover small patches of the country, and starting a competitive network is virtually impossible when all the good wireless spectrum has been snapped up.  If the government doesn't step in, it's highly unlikely that prices will ever get better.

 

While there is such a thing as striking a balance in regulation, I never quite get the people who balk at regulation when it's clearly needed... these companies are not your friends, and they will happily screw you over knowing that you're a captive audience.

[ARikozuM]

36 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

But just because they "should be" able to do it does that mean the government should be able to force them to?

Someone doesn't realize what the gov't's job and function is. 

[Andreas Lilja]

56 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Having a cell phone data plan isnt a life necessity. People dont need it to live.

Access to Internet is increasingly starting to be seen as a right.

[Guest]

On 3/6/2020 at 11:11 PM, leadeater said:

Must be a British colonial/Common Wealth thing, cellular prices and caps suck hard in NZ too.

It really sucks because I’m on prepaid, I get the $19 pack so that gets me 2.65Gb of data and unlimited texts/calls etc, but when I want to go on the plan, it’s not as worth it. I want to try and use my eSim but you can’t on prepaid  

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Access to Internet is increasingly starting to be seen as a right.

And society seeing things as a right usually comes well after it has become a necessity.

[RonnieOP]

2 hours ago, Commodus said:

Mobile data is quickly becoming a necessity, especially for those people that can't justify both a phone and a PC.

 

And importantly, the whole point of competition regulation is to spot and address abuse, especially when it's in a market with very few companies.  If all three major carriers in Canada are price gouging, often in direct response to (if not collusion with) each other, where do you go?  Alternatives like Freedom Mobile and Videotron only cover small patches of the country, and starting a competitive network is virtually impossible when all the good wireless spectrum has been snapped up.  If the government doesn't step in, it's highly unlikely that prices will ever get better.

 

While there is such a thing as striking a balance in regulation, I never quite get the people who balk at regulation when it's clearly needed... these companies are not your friends, and they will happily screw you over knowing that you're a captive audience.

Its not a necessity though. Unlimited mobile data is not a life or death service. For most people its more of an entertainment service. Now you could argue some people need it for their jobs, but then alot of jobs require pretty expensive pcs as well but the government shouldnt regulate what apple, dell, etc charge for their products.

 

In no way am I saying these companies are your friends and they wont screw you over. They will 100% but you can elect not to use their services. If people stop using these companies services they will lose money and be forced to lower costs to get back customers. 

 

I assume price gouging is illegal in CAN. So if theres proof of that happening they need to charge them for that. Same as with any service.

2 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

Someone doesn't realize what the gov't's job and function is. 

I dont know Canadian law. But does it say that its function is to tell private companies what they can charge for their service? Does that mean they can go tell restaurants they have to charge less? Do they get to tell Newegg what their profit margins should be?

 

Why is it ok that they do this with cell phone carriers and not other private businesses?

2 hours ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Access to Internet is increasingly starting to be seen as a right.

It shouldnt. And mobile data is not even the same as "access to internet".

 

I dont know Canadian law, so I am not trying to argue the legality of it. Im just stating my opinion on it. Like I said this is good for consumers. But I am not a fan of government telling private companies what they can charge for their services when they did nothing in terms of building the company.

[Andreas Lilja]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

Why is it ok that they do this with cell phone carriers and not other private businesses?

It shouldnt. And mobile data is not even the same as "access to internet".

Wi-Fi isn't free, and can be spoty unless you live in a major city, and even then.

 

Get a job, yeah. But try getting one without the web these days.

 

 

[RonnieOP]

2 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Wi-Fi isn't free, and can be spoty unless you live in a major city, and even then.

 

Get a job, yeah. But try getting one without the web these days.

 

 

Theres plenty of jobs you can get without having internet at home or on your phone.

 

Theres plenty of people who still print out a resume and physically hand them in and get jobs.

 

Theres also plenty of public places you can go for free wifi (cafes, mcdonalds, libraries, etc).

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Wi-Fi isn't free, and can be spoty unless you live in a major city, and even then.

 

Get a job, yeah. But try getting one without the web these days.

 

 

Absolutely,

 

You can't even get social welfare in Australia without internet.  The government has had to make sure all the centre link offices have public pc's in them for people to be able to job search and maintain their welfare requirements.

 

Then there are all the real jobs that you must apply online for, have an email address and ready access to it.  Some of these jobs are entry level jobs stacking shelves at the super market. Public internet cafes are just not feasible due to price, and getting to a library or public free access point is not easy for many either.

 

 

[Donut417]

3 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Are they going to tell other businesses what they can or cant charge?

Its the government. They write the laws and enforce the laws. They can and WILL dictate what businesses can and can not do. The governments job is to regualte the market to ensure fairness and that the public is protected. 

 

That being said, I think they are going about this the wrong way. Here in the US we have MVNO's. These opperaters lease network time from the big 4. Generally they have lower cost plans. Not sure if Candada has the same thing in place, but thats where Id start. Force the big 3 to lease out network time for a reasonable price. Get some of these MVNO's to help create competetion. Thats how you bring down prices. 

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Force the big 3 to lease out network time for a reasonable price. Get some of these MVNO's to help create competetion. Thats how you bring down prices. 

 

 

 

 

That's more or less the way they have approached it,  They said your prices are too high so either drop them or be fair about leasing out your infrastructure to smaller providers or face consequences when the spectrum allocations come due.

 

Quote

it could look at restricting the Big Three’s access to future spectrum auctions that they need in order to expand their networks, and forcing them to let smaller providers piggyback on their networks

 

To me what I see is the big 3 have a bit of a monopoly going on and that has caused their prices to be unquestionably too high for the economy,  The government has basically told them to fix it or we'll step in and fix it for you and you may not like the lack of control and resources.

[leadeater]

44 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Theres plenty of people who still print out a resume and physically hand them in and get jobs.

 

Theres also plenty of public places you can go for free wifi (cafes, mcdonalds, libraries, etc).

Both of these put you at a significant disadvantage to everyone else job seeking. Many places here actually do not accept applications through any other form than through their recruitment website or through a recruitment website such as Seek (the biggest one here). The only way to get around that is for you to pay for the services of a recruitment agency, but that costs money you potentially don't have.

 

The final catch net after that, here, is going on the unemployment benefit which requires you to be job seeking while on it or upskilling/training. The job opportunities they help find for you are in no uncertain terms not well paying.

 

The ability for you to find job easily, quickly apply for them, to the standard an employer is expecting is rather important. The way you find and apply for jobs today might not be anything like it used to be in the past but it's they way it is now, and that fact is important to now.

[leadeater]

41 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Force the big 3 to lease out network time for a reasonable price. Get some of these MVNO's to help create competetion. Thats how you bring down prices.

They tried that, Telus countered with threats of massive job cuts and cease to all network expansions and technology improvements. Should have grown a spine and went through with it but they didn't so yea, now Telus knows they can get away with basically anything via threats so good job on that one.

[RonnieOP]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Both of these put you at a significant disadvantage to everyone else job seeking. Many places here actually do not accept applications through any other form than through their recruitment website or through a recruitment website such as Seek (the biggest one here). The only way to get around that is for you to pay for the services of a recruitment agency, but that costs money you potentially don't have.

 

The final catch net after that, here, is going on the unemployment benefit which requires you to be job seeking while on it or upskilling/training. The job opportunities they help find for you are in no uncertain terms not well paying.

 

The ability for you to find job easily, quickly apply for them, to the standard an employer is expecting is rather important. The way you find and apply for jobs today might not be anything like it used to be in the past but it's they way it is now, and that fact is important to now.

True. But even then there are plenty of free avenues for internet. And access to internet is not the same as mobile data. Mobile data is one way to access the internet but not the only.

 

If the government is going to start considering it a right to have internet they should be the ones responsible for that imo. I dont know CAN laws but ill use US as an example.

 

We have a constitutional right to mail. So we have the post office. They have to keep that in service. They dont go to Fedex or UPS and tell them how to do their business and what they can charge.

[leadeater]

Just now, RonnieOP said:

True. But even then there are plenty of free avenues for internet.

Again puts you at a disadvantage to everyone else. Free access isn't the issue, when and how is and it doesn't help if it costs you money to get to that free internet access. It's not free if it costs you money to get there and your time isn't free either. In the time it took to get there you probably could have look over 10 jobs and applied to one that is suitable, then with that extra time you could spend on attaining skills and education that make you more employable.

 

4 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

If the government is going to start considering it a right to have internet they should be the ones responsible for that imo.

They already are, there are specific telecommunications laws. So that is already a thing.

 

5 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

They dont go to Fedex or UPS and tell them how to do their business and what they can charge.

Yes they do, they are also subject to postal laws.

[Donut417]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

They dont go to Fedex or UPS and tell them how to do their business and what they can charge.

Technically they do. Ever heard of Labor laws, FAA regulations, Traffic Laws? Technically they are regualted like any other. 

 

Great example, packages have to be marked if the have Lithrum Ion Batteries in them, or have a regulated material like aerosol cans and such. I know this because my employer ships these types of things via UPS. They have to be handled in a certian way. UPS and FedEx both have planes and have to oppeate in occordence to federal law. They can just take off and land when ever they want. UPS and FedEx can not discriminate when it comes to hiring employees. Again government regulation. Can a UPS driver speed? Nope, they have to follow the same rules as USPS on the roads. The only real difrence is if you touch a mail box that isnt yours you go to Federal Pound you in the ass prison. Because tampering with the mail or mail box is illegal under Federal Law. While stealing UPS packages is just a standard local crime. 

 

In the case of this thread its how the airways are being used. The governmnet controls the airways. If they dont like how a company uses them, they have the legal right to do something about it. ALSO the government has the right to protect consumers from poor business practices. In this case the government could declare a monopoly with the telecoms and maybe break them up in to smaller companies, forcing competetion. 

[RonnieOP]

Just now, leadeater said:

Again puts you at a disadvantage to everyone else. Free access isn't the issue, when and how is and it doesn't help if it costs you money to get to that free internet access. It's not free if it costs you money to get there and your time isn't free either. In the time it took to get there you probably could have look over 10 jobs and applied to one that is suitable, then with that extra time you could spend on attaining skills and education that make you more employable.

If a person is worried about the cost to get to a cafe or library are they going to be able to afford a phone and plan anyway? We arent talking about free here with these cuts we are talking about cheaper. If they cut the plans is it going to be cheaper then going to the library?

 

I mean how far away do these people live where traveling to a place with wifi is going to be that long? and what does that say about their ability to get to the job?

 

How far are these people traveling to where they could learn a bunch of skills in that amount of time?

 

There many many ways someone could be at a disadvantage over another potential hire, that's not really a government issue.

[RonnieOP]

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Technically they do. Ever heard of Labor laws, FAA regulations, Traffic Laws? Technically they are regualted like any other. 

 

Great example, packages have to be marked if the have Lithrum Ion Batteries in them, or have a regulated material like aerosol cans and such. I know this because my employer ships these types of things via UPS. They have to be handled in a certian way. UPS and FedEx both have planes and have to oppeate in occordence to federal law. They can just take off and land when ever they want. UPS and FedEx can not discriminate when it comes to hiring employees. Again government regulation. Can a UPS driver speed? Nope, they have to follow the same rules as USPS on the roads. The only real difrence is if you touch a mail box that isnt yours you go to Federal Pound you in the ass prison. Because tampering with the mail or mail box is illegal under Federal Law. While stealing UPS packages is just a standard local crime.

Yes I worded that horribly. I Shouldnt of said how they do business but what they charge for their service.

 

The government has regulations on my business as well when it comes to how I store and serve food. But they dont get to tell me how much I can charge for a meal. The market determines that.

 

If they are going to say internet access is a right then they should provide it. Not rely on private companies to provide it.

 

If they are saying that they have a monopoly up there then thats against the laws and they should be focusing on that.

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

If a person is worried about the cost to get to a cafe or library are they going to be able to afford a phone and plan anyway? We arent talking about free here with these cuts we are talking about cheaper. If they cut the plans is it going to be cheaper then going to the library?

Rural communities, urban communities. We aren't talking about just areas with wired services, we're also talking about areas that could be expensive to live in or lacking in the infrastructure that was promised decades ago. 

Quote

I mean how far away do these people live where traveling to a place with wifi is going to be that long? and what does that say about their ability to get to the job?

Rural communities. You think people aren't discriminated against? There was an incident a few years ago about a business parsing algorithm discriminating on applicants based on name and address. You think it's all about a person's skills? People that go to jail usually have a lower chance of receiving a job even after having paid their dues to society. 

Quote

How far are these people traveling to where they could learn a bunch of skills in that amount of time?

Irrelevant. There may not be buses or other mass transit in areas for people. It could be expensive. 

 

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

If a person is worried about the cost to get to a cafe or library are they going to be able to afford a phone and plan anyway? We arent talking about free here with these cuts we are talking about cheaper. If they cut the plans is it going to be cheaper then going to the library?

Sure they are, because having the ability to communicate is an essential capability. Most houses here don't even have land lines, it's an age thing mostly but cellphones are the household phone. Affordability and cost of living is important, some things are not actually a luxury item despite it being so in the past.

 

13 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

I mean how far away do these people live where traveling to a place with wifi is going to be that long? and what does that say about their ability to get to the job?

When is the last time you took a bus a reasonable distance? One way can easily be an hour while not actually traveling very far, it's why walking can sometime be a time competitive option to the bus.

 

Then also consider that they do have a car, great can get there in 30-40 minutes. How much does parking cost for you? Few hours here is anywhere from $6-$20. So maybe like $3-$4 fuel and $10 parking each time you want to find and apply for a job, better not do that every day.

13 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

There many many ways someone could be at a disadvantage over another potential hire, that's not really a government issue.

Yes that totally is.

[Donut417]

5 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

But they dont get to tell me how much I can charge for a meal. The market determines that.

They can. The government can manipulate the prices as they need. The US government has done it in the past with oil. We have a national reserve. When OPEC decides to be pricks, sometimes we tap in to that reserve to lower prices. The government can also deterim that the market is wrong. The Government MAKES THE RULES. They just have to pass a law and the telecoms have to legally follow it. Just like the Net Neutrality laws many US states have. ISP's have to follow the law within those boards, or else suffer the consquences. 

 

10 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

f they are going to say internet access is a right then they should provide it. Not rely on private companies to provide it.

Here in the states many local governments across the country do. Ever heard of Municipal broadband? Guess what..... Its fucking cheaper. Holy shit. Legally the government cant make a profit, so they only bring enough in to pay employees and buildout/ maintain the network. The only reason this process is not everywhere is because telecoms have paid state government officals to make laws aginst this practice. The same telecoms that want to rape your wallet each month. 

[WkdPaul]

@RonnieOP Canada heavily regulates telecommunication, Internet was rules a basic service years ago ;

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/crtc-internet-essential-service-1.3906664

 

They also already dictates what cellphone providers can charge around data overages and roaming fees, among other things ;

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/phone/mobile/codesimpl.htm

 

I'm always surprised that people don't know Canada is a heavy handed socialist country, hell, in my province, milk price is regulated, gaz price is regulated, beer price is regulated, they even force restaurant to use computerized billing so that everything is reported to the government for each and every sale ... And I don't know how many other things!

 

Canada is a lot closer to Europe when it comes to government regulation and involvement.

 

Telling mobile providers to lower their price is something they 100% have the power to do, not saying that they SHOULD, but they certainly can.