corona virus

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, dizmo said:

Yeah, for a country as large as China it's medical system is shockingly lacking. Not too surprising if you really think about it, though. China has only been a developed country for maybe 2 decades, and there are still massive parts of it that simply aren't.

This, people don't realize the direction china is going nor do they properly consider where they have come from.   Sure there is a lot to be angry about, but to be fair and unbiased there are a few good arguments for them doing a better job moving forward right now than the US is.

 

2 hours ago, dizmo said:

Why would it? People eat exotic things all over the world.

 

 

 

Like Charles darwin who many hold in high esteem as being the father of evolution and a figure head for scientific thinking,  whom was also of white European decent and a member of a club that enjoyed eating strange and exotic animals.

[atxcyclist]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

Somewhat relevant:

 

 

 

EDIT:  Also sorry to all my American friends who are actually rational about this, one of the problems with social media is that we all get colored by the one brush.   But you get the implication.

 

I get the implication, but let's be real: There were a few really stupid and vocal people, like bimbo actress Jenny McCarthy, that conned some gullible rubes into thinking vaccines caused autism. It got very publicly debunked, and now only the dumbest people might still believe that here. During all of this, the medical community in the United States has continuously been for vaccinations, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that isn't vaccinated here outside of some little insane communities. I still have my original vaccination records in my safe, just in case there's ever a question.

 

Meanwhile, Chinese "doctors" are selling ointments to cure cancer, and tiger genitals as a substitute for Viagra. Beyond the medical quackery, China has things like the wet market where possible pandemics are starting. So, regardless of whatever comedy zinger that Twitter dude was going for, I'm going to very satisfyingly drop the mic over here.

[Bombastinator]

19 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

 

I get the implication, but let's be real: There were a few really stupid and vocal people, like bimbo actress Jenny McCarthy, that conned some gullible rubes into thinking vaccines caused autism. It got very publicly debunked, and now only the dumbest people might still believe that here. During all of this, the medical community in the United States has continuously been for vaccinations, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that isn't vaccinated here outside of some little insane communities. I still have my original shot records in my safe, just in case there's ever a question.

 

Meanwhile, Chinese "doctors" are selling ointments to cure cancer, and tiger genitals as a substitute for Viagra. Beyond the medical quackery, China has things like the wet market where possible pandemics are starting. So, regardless of whatever comedy zinger that Twitter dude was going for, I'm going to very satisfyingly drop the mic over here.

Not the doctors. The traditional medicine herbalists.  I watched a documentary for “omega” something that was basically $80 for fish oil tablets that were supposed to cure chronic pain.  I don’t see how American marketing pretending to be doctors has anythhinf other that what amounts to the same thing.

[mr moose]

28 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

 

I get the implication, but let's be real: There were a few really stupid and vocal people, like bimbo actress Jenny McCarthy, that conned some gullible rubes into thinking vaccines caused autism. It got very publicly debunked, and now only the dumbest people might still believe that here. During all of this, the medical community in the United States has continuously been for vaccinations, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that isn't vaccinated here outside of some little insane communities. I still have my original shot records in my safe, just in case there's ever a question.

Not buying it, it's possibly even worse coming from the US because you had an outbreak of an already controllable disease solely because enough people believed the shit on youtube and facebook.    We don't know what the social media landscape is like in china with regard to medicine and health.

 

Quote

Meanwhile, Chinese "doctors" are selling ointments to cure cancer, and tiger genitals as a substitute for Viagra. Beyond the medical quackery, China has things like the wet market where possible pandemics are starting. So, regardless of whatever comedy zinger that Twitter dude was going for, I'm going to very satisfyingly drop the mic over here.

You know there are plenty of Americans selling exactly the same thing.  black salve, miracle bleach, poo transfusions. you name it, it's in the us too.  This isn't a Chinese thing.

 

EDIT: And if you'd like a list of doctors who have joined in the anti vaccine cult I can provide that too.  There is literally no rational way to criticize the Chinese health ministry/practices for causing this when there are so many flaws in your own system. 

[atxcyclist]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Not buying it, it's possibly even worse coming from the US because you had an outbreak of a controllable disease solely because enough people believed the shit on youtube and facebook.    We don't know what the social media landscape is like in china with regard to medicine and health.

 

You know there are plenty of Americans selling exactly the same thing.  black salve, miracle bleach, poo transfusions. you name it, it's in the us too.  This isn't a Chinese thing.

I guess you don't have to buy it, but you don't live here or see this end of it either. The "outbreak" here is nothing like 50 million people in quarantine and exporting strange new diseases to dozens of countries. The social media landscape in China is state-run, so something is not working in the medicine and health concepts if a snake virus is killing hundreds of people and turning into a pandemic.

 

We call those infomercials, and those people are not doctors. There's a reason they play those ads at 3am on public television channels. 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I guess you don't have to buy it, but you don't live here or see this end of it either. The "outbreak" here is nothing like 50 million people in quarantine and exporting strange new diseases to dozens of countries. The social media landscape in China is state-run, so something is not working in the medicine and health concepts if a snake virus is killing hundreds of people and turning into a pandemic.

 

We call those infomercials, and those people are not doctors. There's a reason they play those ads at 3am on public television channels. 

Not doctors:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

 

doctor who sells woo to the public

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherri_Tenpenny

 

another doctor who makes money selling anti vax shit in the US

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/when-the-doctor-is-a-vaccine-skeptic/513383/

An article about there being a lot more we don;t know about

 

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

You had a preventable outbreak because of these DOCTORS.  Don't try and blame infomercials.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

I guess you don't have to buy it, but you don't live here or see this end of it either. The "outbreak" here is nothing like 50 million people in quarantine and exporting strange new diseases to dozens of countries. The social media landscape in China is state-run, so something is not working in the medicine and health concepts if a snake virus is killing hundreds of people and turning into a pandemic.

 

We call those infomercials, and those people are not doctors. There's a reason they play those ads at 3am on public television channels. 

It was dinner time.  Maybe late dinner time, but it wasn’t three am.  Absolutely an infomercial.  Marketing.  I was eating dinner in a resteraut and the tv was on.  The herbalists in China aren’t doctors either.  They put on the same kind of front though.  It’s marketing not medicine.  There are real doctors in China.   Ironically it was a “Chinese” restaurant.  Well “Asian”. They had a sushi bar.  Not authentic Chinese food either.  The stuff they call American food when it’s served in China.

[atxcyclist]

17 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Not the doctors. The traditional medicine herbalists.  I watched a documentary for “omega” something that was basically $80 for fish oil tablets that were supposed to cure chronic pain.  I don’t see how American marketing pretending to be doctors has anythhinf other that what amounts to the same thing.

Except that is what many people in rural China credit as medical professionals, because that's what they have. There are many articles about the blurring of those herbalists and medical professionals in China, the distinction isn't clearly made. A place that cleans your ears in China might claim they have professionals on staff, and there's no system in China that will punish them for false claims or set any type of standards for medical care to separate the two.

 

When you walk into a hospital here, you see doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals; A guy on a TV commercial is going to sell you fish oil capsules, not someone that has a combined decade or more of medical school and surgical/specialty training.

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Except that is what many people in rural China credit as medical professionals, because that's what they have. There are many articles about the blurring of those herbalists and medical professionals in China, the distinction isn't clearly made. A place that cleans your ears in China might claim they have professionals on staff, and there's no system in China that will punish them for false claims or set any type of standards for medical care to separate the two.

 

When you walk into a hospital here, you see doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals; A guy on a TV commercial is going to sell you fish oil capsules, not someone that has a combined decade or more of medical school and surgical/specialty training.

The “because that is what they have” thing hits home with me a bit.  I currently cannot get medical insurance because of the new return of preexisting conditions. I can’t “walk into a hospital” it’s too expensive. I had doctors appointments.  I had to cancel them all.  I’m in the same boat as those villagers.  Who don’t live in Wuhan.  The Chinese people with corona virus have better access to medical care than I do right now.

[atxcyclist]

On 1/31/2020 at 8:45 AM, mr moose said:

Not doctors:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

 

doctor who sells woo to the public

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherri_Tenpenny

 

another doctor who makes money selling anti vax shit in the US

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/when-the-doctor-is-a-vaccine-skeptic/513383/

An article about there being a lot more we don;t know about

 

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

You had a preventable outbreak because of these DOCTORS.  Don't try and blame infomercials.

 

 

I've never heard of either one of those people, it's possible than no one I've ever known has heard of those two people.

 

I don't put myself into a group that includes anti-vaxxers, so it's not my glass house anyway.

 

 

You're pretty quick to blame all of the US health system on the actions of two nobodies. There's over 300 million people in this country, 9.8 million square kilometers of land, and we apparently have two very dishonest doctors. Wow.

 

On 1/31/2020 at 8:53 AM, Bombastinator said:

The “because that is what they have” thing hits home with me a bit.  I currently cannot get medical insurance because of the new return of preexisting conditions. I can’t “walk into a hospital” it’s too expensive. I had doctors appointments.  I had to cancel them all.  I’m in the same boat as those villagers.  Who don’t live in Wuhan.  The Chinese people with corona virus have better access to medical care than I do right now.

I am sorry for your position, though if you get an ACA plan it has to cover those pre-existing conditions by law. I've not heard of this issue with pre-existing conditions, but I don't know if your state insurance is different than ACA plans. Here in Texas we can get an ACA plan or personal insurance, but the personal plans may not have to follow ACA rules.

 

You are being a bit disingenuous about medical care here though; If you enter a hospital or doctor's office in the US you will see a board certified and licensed doctor. You might see an herbalist, med school dropout, or possibly a doctor in a hospital in China, but you wouldn't know which. You will receive better and more consistent care here in the US.

[Letgomyleghoe]

4 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

This is not how disease, evolution, or natural selection works. This is just a cynical idea in your head. There is no divine force out there that determines when a disease hits and how infectious or deadly it is. 

Yeah ik there's no "divine force" but we've went many years without a serious pandemic, and overpopulation is making it easier for disease and viruses to spread.

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I am sorry for your position, though if you get an ACA plan it has to cover those pre-existing conditions by law. I've not heard of this issue with pre-existing conditions, but I don't know if your state insurance is different than ACA plans. Here in Texas we can get an ACA plan or personal insurance, but the personal plans may not have to follow ACA rules.

 

You are being a bit disingenuous about medical care here though; If you enter a hospital or doctor's office in the US you will see a board certified and licensed doctor. You might see an herbalist, med school dropout, or possibly a doctor in a hospital in China, but you wouldn't know which. You will receive better and more consistent care here in the US.

Yeah the aca is better known as “Obamacare” that doesn’t have the preexisting condition requirement anymore.  It was quite famously removed.  I can get insurance coverage for things that might go wrong in the future.  I’ve had no joke hundreds of calls at all hours.  Not a one can cover the stuff I have though.   Or rather, none of them is legally required to so not a single one does.

 

none of this matters for purposes of the point though.  Attempting to Poop on the chinese for their “backward ways” when they’re not an inch more backward than anything in the USA is just ridiculous.

[mr moose]

17 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I've never heard of either one of those people, it's possible than no one I've ever known has heard of those two people.

 

I don't put myself into a group that includes anti-vaxxers, so it's not my glass house anyway.

 

 

You're pretty quick to blame all of the US health system on the actions of two nobodies. There's over 300 million people in this country, 9.8 million square kilometers of land, and we apparently have two very dishonest doctors. Wow.

I'm not blaming the US health system, I am pointing out that sitting there and pontificating about the flaws in another countries health system (which you likely don't understand) when your own country has flaws is hypocritical.  You are literally pointing at the Chinese and accusing them of doing the same stupid things that people in the US are doing.   People in the US honestly believe that black salve works and that vaccines are dangerous, just like some people in china still follow the old medicine practices.   Call it whatever you want but don't pretend you are in a position to judge.

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Yeah the aca is better known as “Obamacare” that doesn’t have the preexisting condition requirement anymore.  It was quite famously removed.  I can get insurance coverage for things that might go wrong in the future.  I’ve had no joke hundreds of calls at all hours.  Not a one can cover the stuff I have though.   Or rather, none of them is legally required to so not a single one does.

 

 

https://www.healthcare.gov/coverage/pre-existing-conditions/

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

 

 

https://www.healthcare.gov/coverage/pre-existing-conditions/

It’s that word “marketplace” that gives it away.  I am not allowed to access the “marketplace”

 

and it still doesn’t matter.

[atxcyclist]

On 1/31/2020 at 9:18 AM, mr moose said:

I'm not blaming the US health system, I am pointing out that sitting there and pontificating about the flaws in another countries health system (which you likely don't understand) when your own country has flaws is hypocritical.  You are literally pointing at the Chinese and accusing them of doing the same stupid things that people in the US are doing.   People in the US honestly believe that black salve works and that vaccines are dangerous, just like some people in china still follow the old medicine practices.   Call it whatever you want but don't pretend you are in a position to judge.

 

What don't I understand? Doctors in China don't have to be doctors, and these wet markets will continue operating and spawning possible pandemics. When this coronavirus has passed, all of this will start right back up in China. China sells fake chemical eggs, rat-poisoned pet food, and radioactive drywall; The last two things on that list were exported and harmed/killed people and pets in other countries, so clearly the government has no checks in place either. That explicit lack of caring about any standards or safety measures is why I do point at them.

 

"People in the US honestly believe..." Some people in the US believe that stuff, but the vast majority of our medical professionals and citizens don't, and our governing bodies don't. I am somewhat in a position to judge, I've been working in hospital/medical facility design for almost twenty years, and have a good grasp on what the standards surrounding both the construction, and operation of those facilities are. 

 

On 1/31/2020 at 9:21 AM, Bombastinator said:

It’s that word “marketplace” that gives it away.  I am not allowed to access the “marketplace”

 

and it still doesn’t matter.

Even your own state's website, MNSure.org says in the FAQ's that you cannot be denied because of pre-existing conditions. I don't know why you've been told that, but neither the ACA, nor your state's insurance site validate that claim. If you're going through a 3rd party insurer and they're telling you this, they are trying to screw you.

 

https://www.mnsure.org/new-customers/whatis-mnsure/faq/index.jsp

 

"All plans sold through MNsure provide comprehensive coverage and consumer protections such as no discrimination based on pre-existing conditions (you cannot be denied coverage or charged a higher premium based on your health status, for example). In addition, all plans sold through MNsure include 10 essential health benefits. Other plans available may not include the same benefits and protections guaranteed when purchasing a plan through MNsure."

 

 

Not trying to be a jerk, my mother's life was practically saved when pre-existing condition prohibitions were removed on insurance plans, so I don't like other people getting ran around about it.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

 

What don't I understand? Doctors in China don't have to be doctors, and these wet markets will continue operating and spawning possible pandemics. When this coronavirus has passed, all of this will start right back up in China. China sells fake chemical eggs, rat-poisoned pet food, and radioactive drywall; The last two things on that list were exported and harmed/killed people and pets in other countries, so clearly the government has no checks in place either. That explicit lack of caring about any standards or safety measures is why I do point at them.

 

"People in the US honestly believe..." Some people in the US believe that stuff, but the vast majority of our medical professionals and citizens don't, and our governing bodies don't. I am somewhat in a position to judge, I've been working in hospital/medical facility design for almost twenty years, and have a good grasp on what the standards surrounding both the construction, and operation of those facilities are. 

If you want to believe you are all perfect over there and don't have issues (even with preventable disease outbreaks and councilors falling victim to stupid internet jokes ) whilst hypocritically attacking another country then by all means, but remember by doing that you are exemplifying why the US has a bad reputation for being loud and hypocritical. 

 

 

[atxcyclist]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If you want to believe you are all perfect over there and don't have issues (even with preventable disease outbreaks and councilors falling victim to stupid internet jokes ) whilst hypocritically attacking another country then by all means, but remember by doing that you are exemplifying why the US has a bad reputation for being loud and hypocritical. 

 

 

 

Please point to where I used some version of the word "perfect" in describing the US in this discussion. The US has plenty of problems, but having to quarantine 50 million people because we have zoo meat markets is not one of them, and neither is allowing fake doctors to run around hospitals and pretend to be professionals without any recourse.

 

It's funny how no one seemed to worry about that reputation when we created manufacturing assembly lines, digital computing, the internet, or intervened and turned the tides in the last World War. But hey, it doesn't matter that my viewpoint here is based on facts, I'm from the US so I'd better know my place in the world as a loud hypocrite. 

[mr moose]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:38 AM, atxcyclist said:

 

Please point to where I used some version of the word "perfect" in describing the US in this discussion. The US has plenty of problems, but having to quarantine 50 million people because we have zoo meat markets is not one of them, and neither is allowing fake doctors to run around hospitals and pretend to be professionals without any recourse.

 

It's funny how no one seemed to worry about that reputation when we created manufacturing assembly lines, digital computing, the internet, or intervened and turned the tides in the last World War. But hey, it doesn't matter that my viewpoint here is based on facts, I'm from the US so I'd better know my place in the world as a loud hypocrite. 

 

Because you keep criticizing the Chinese like you are above them.  Quarantining 50 million people is a perfectly reasonable response to a deadly virus outbreak you have no control over.  Having people die of a preventable disease in a first world country because you have soccer mums preaching on facebook that vaccines are dangerous is not reasonable at all.  All I am saying is you are a hypocrite for continually trying to criticize china over this when you have the same if not worse health practices in your own damn country.  

 

The fact you refuse to accept that one irrefutable truth is evidence you think you are better, I used the term thinking of yourself as perfect and maybe that was wrong, it doesn't matter though, there are lots of words that describe that attitude and none of them are nice.

 

 

 

Quote

It's funny how no one seemed to worry about that reputation when we created manufacturing assembly lines, digital computing, the internet, or intervened and turned the tides in the last World War. But hey, it doesn't matter that my viewpoint here is based on facts, I'm from the US so I'd better know my place in the world as a loud hypocrite. 

Just on this one you probably have funny ideas about these things,  but we don't need a dick measuring contest, every country has it's own list of major advances.  

[GoldenLag]

17 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

manufacturing assembly lines

actually, that would be the venetians in around 1104 with their ship building industry. or China if you believe in decentralized manufacturing assembly lines. or if you want to disregard those. the UK with their production lines. so the concept has stuck around for a long, long time. 

18 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

intervened and turned the tides in the last World War.

its actually likely the war would have been won by the allies regardless, however the war was certainly shortened, and the soviet union would have gotten a greater share of europe had they not joined in as their losses would be greater. 

22 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

But hey, it doesn't matter that my viewpoint here is based on facts

and you have a deep understanding of the chinese health and medical system and the current conditions it is in? 

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

and you have a deep understanding of the chinese health and medical system and the current conditions it is in? 

Even if he does/did/doesn't,  The whole point is not to criticize another country when your own country is failing at some of the most basic tasks of any health system. 

[KnoT]

The one thing i dont get is how you get 2-11% mortality rate when it looks more like 50+% according to this: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

 

[Danioki]

1 minute ago, KnoT said:

The one thing i dont get is how you get 2-11% mortality rate when it looks more like 50+% according to this: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

 

according to that link you get like 1%, check your math.

[KnoT]

4 minutes ago, Danioki said:

according to that link you get like 1%, check your math.

You check your math why are you getting the mortality rate from dead/infected ? Infected can still die or get better so they are still fighting the virus their outcome is not know yet.

[GreatnessRD]

Man listen, y'all better stop going outchea eating bad box!