corona virus

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Exactly. Like, if you look at when the US started mass purchasing vehicles, they've had what...60? 70 years? China's had maybe a third of that. In 40 years, they'll be so far ahead of where the US is right now, it won't even be funny. Yes, some of that has to do with advancements that have been made, but it also has to do with how their developments have significantly less red tape.

There is a good video about an excavator company in china on youtube,  even if we assume it is only half accurate it still is quite the achievement given where they came from.

8 minutes ago, dizmo said:

 

While he's not right in what he said, you're not blameless yourself.

I am not criticizing the Chinese for this.  I know and accept there are fruit bats in the health care system every where.

8 minutes ago, dizmo said:

The way you word things basically lumps all Americans in the same boat. Which is, frankly, just as wrong as what he's assuming.

 

No, in fact my first post included an apology to all the rational Americans who were not being hypocrites.  II even reiterated that several posts later.  The difference between him and me is that I accept there are flaws in my countries health care system and crazy fruit bats that cause unnecessary deaths,  He does not see the hypocrisy of pretending everything in the US is above reproach while criticizing china without any real knowledge on the subject.

 

8 minutes ago, dizmo said:

He (likely) has nothing to do with the soccer moms preaching on Facebook, so why is that relevant? He's not wrong to point out deficiencies in China, as they're facts, not personal opinions. China's healthcare sector is, frankly, pathetic. While the US has issues with costs, at least it's present.

 

Many of the things he points to (right wrong or indifferent) are not proof of anything, he hasn't provided anything that shows a how this virus could have been avoided or what caused it to come into existence in the first place.   I do not bother rebutting moot points.  why bring up the US's efforts in ww2?  I am afraid it was because I showed him the US system is not perfect and people die there due to misinformation and clinging to the same alternative health practices that he accused the Chinese of.  he couldn't deny it so he tried to deflect and move the glory somewhere else. I am not buying into unfounded arguments, I will only discuss what we know.

 

1 minute ago, Cora_Lie said:

Unfortunately this irrationality already caused a death in Sydney, Australia.

 

A 60 yo man collapsed in the street and bystanders refused to perform CPR because "he might be sick and have the coronavirus"!

When police and first responders arrived it was too  late and man had died.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/30/man-died-chinatown-people-refused-give-cpr-coronavirus-fears-12155013/

 

:sigh:

That is sad and it does worry me where all this social media health advice is going.    FFS,  I even carry face shield with me every where, I never want to question if I should save someones life because of that niggling fear int eh back of the head put there by crazy fuck wits.

[Bombastinator]

On 2/1/2020 at 2:14 AM, dizmo said:

T

Spoiler

 

here's been multiple times over the course of human history where, even if accidental, local populations have been affected by military R&D.

It's actually not worse than the regular flu. The regular flu has a 14%ish chance of killing everyone affected, if you're over 65, then that jumps to 85%. So the regular flu strain is still substantially more dangerous.

Exactly. Like, if you look at when the US started mass purchasing vehicles, they've had what...60? 70 years? China's had maybe a third of that. In 40 years, they'll be so far ahead of where the US is right now, it won't even be funny. Yes, some of that has to do with advancements that have been made, but it also has to do with how their developments have significantly less red tape.

China sells tons of things by many, many different companies. Do you know where else this happens? In the US. From US companies. Sure, it might not be rat poison, but there have been many, many recalls on US produced pet food as well. That radioactive drywall you bring up? Yup, houses made from US based drywall started having the exact same problems, likely because the chemical makeup is similar. The fake egg example is hit or miss depending on which source you go with, but it's likely not far off the fake rice stories that used to go around, which was also a hoax. Eggs are stupid cheap in China. It wouldn't make sense to spend the money and resources to fake them.

 

China has exploded in the past 30 years. It's not surprising that it's going to take time before they get proper regulatory stuff in place.

While he's not right in what he said, you're not blameless yourself. The way you word things basically lumps all Americans in the same boat. Which is, frankly, just as wrong as what he's assuming. He (likely) has nothing to do with the soccer moms preaching on Facebook, so why is that relevant? He's not wrong to point out deficiencies in China, as they're facts, not personal opinions. China's healthcare sector is, frankly, pathetic. While the US has issues with costs, at least it's present.

I really doubt that. The US propped the UK up while they were under bombardment with supply shipments, they had the highest number of Allied casualties, the highest number of wounded soldiers, they were the reason Japan left the war...without the US, the Axis would have won. There simply aren't enough soldiers or equipment for the Allied forces to have won without them.

Because that's what mortality rate is. The amount of people killed by a virus. It has nothing to do with the potential deaths.

Yeah, they've been able to shut it down decently well. It's interesting how something similar wouldn't work in most other countries, as it would violate people's rights.

I could see Japan pulling something like that hospital off. Have you ever seen the videos of them fixing massive sinkholes in roadways in the middle of cities a few hours? Insane. I would, however, question the quality of the work in buildings so quickly constructed.

 

 

I respect your writing stamina.  I got lost in all that I’m afraid.  
 

a vague general impression:

there seemed to be a theme of disease vs epidemic vs. pandemic.  This is a disease that could become a pandemic.  Swine flu was a nasty flu, and it had potential to become a pandemic.  There are only a few pandemics I’ve ever heard of happening: the Black Plague and the WW1 flu epidemic.  There is disagreement as to whether this one was a full pandemic though.   I also vaguely recall a cholera epidemic in London centering around water.  That one had a book written about it.  Not a pandemic though I understand it wiped out (pun not intended) a good percentage of London.

Wuhan is having an epidemic of sorts.  China is huge though and I don’t know if it might be considered a pandemic even if it never got out of China.  It has gotten out of China though.

 

re: flu in old people and death rates:

Your numbers are likely far harder than mine.  They seem in line though.  Flu vaccines mostly lessen infection chances, the severity of the disease, and lower death rate.  They’re not a perfect preventative.  Perhaps a silver lining to this horror will be the creation of a corona virus vaccine.  If it was offered I’d take it.

Edited February 11, 2020 by LogicalDrm

[mr moose]

14 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

  Perhaps a silver lining to this horror will be the creation of a corona virus vaccine.  If it was offered I’d take it.

Ditto, I'd have it with my annual flu shot, and pertussis booster.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

 

Wuhan is having an epidemic of sorts.  China is huge though and I don’t know if it might be considered a pandemic even if it never got out of China.  It has gotten out of China though.

 

 

There is no debate, this is an epidemic in China - an epidemic is a disease that is present in the population with a large incidence. A pandemic must have large incidence globally, so for instance the 1918 Spanish Flu, and the 2009 flu pandemic. 

[Donut417]

7 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

The outbreak of e-coli in salads a few years ago? Which is not yet solved per se

Well, they still havent found the asshole whos shitting on the lettuce. 

7 hours ago, Cora_Lie said:

Want to discuss the amount of sweeteners or corn syrup (aka glucose-fructose syrop, aka HFCS) in american sodas? If corn syrup is forbidden in Europe there's a reason for that..

Well Eurpoe is the new California. Everyting in California causes caner. Europe seems to be the same way. 

 

Dont get me wrong. Our food over here is terrible. This is what happens when corporations are allowed to run rampant. 

 

My take on this who Virus is this. China has a shit load of people living on a little bit of land. They dont have much when it comes to environmental regualtions. Not saying the US is much better, but you tend to get fined or put in prison or both if you chuck toxic waste in a drinking water. But as it stands, when you get a large number of people packed together. You tend to have sickness. Also, considering the way we treat mother nature, this is just her fighting back. 

[mr moose]

9 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

There is no debate, this is an epidemic in China - an epidemic is a disease that is present in the population with a large incidence. A pandemic must have large incidence globally, so for instance the 1918 Spanish Flu, and the 2009 flu pandemic. 

 

I always confuse pandemic, epidemic and endemic.    So does the media by some accounts.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I always confuse pandemic, epidemic and endemic.    So does the media by some accounts.

Easy! ^o^

Think in term of global (pan-), country (epi-) and local (end-)

[dizmo]

26 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I respect your writing stamina.  I got lost in all that I’m afraid.  
 

a vague general impression:

there seemed to be a theme of disease vs epidemic vs. pandemic.  This is a disease that could become a pandemic.  Swine flu was a nasty flu, and it had potential to become a pandemic.  There are only a few pandemics I’ve ever heard of happening: the Black Plague and the WW1 flu epidemic.  There is disagreement as to whether this one was a full pandemic though.   I also vaguely recall a cholera epidemic in London centering around water.  That one had a book written about it.  Not a pandemic though I understand it wiped out (pun not intended) a good percentage of London.

Wuhan is having an epidemic of sorts.  China is huge though and I don’t know if it might be considered a pandemic even if it never got out of China.  It has gotten out of China though.

 

re: flu in old people and death rates:

Your numbers are likely far harder than mine.  They seem in line though.  Flu vaccines mostly lessen infection chances, the severity of the disease, and lower death rate.  They’re not a perfect preventative.  Perhaps a silver lining to this horror will be the creation of a corona virus vaccine.  If it was offered I’d take it.

You only have to look for your username to find the part relevant to you, not the entire post  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

I always confuse pandemic, epidemic and endemic.    So does the media by some accounts.

Endemic - Disease present in population, but same as background incidence. 

Epidemic - Disease present in population, much higher than background incidence - you would see a large spike on a timeline of incidence. 

Pandemic - Simply a global epidemic. 

Another term would be Sporadic, where there is little incidence of disease with an unpredictable pattern. (That does imply that epidemics are somewhat predictable, which they are). 

 

An easy way to think about it is that Endemic diseases can give way to an Epidemic, then to a Pandemic, so its a sort of hierarchy. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Well Eurpoe is the new California. Everyting in California causes caner. Europe seems to be the same way. 

Hum... Not really! As I've said in a previous post Europe is far from perfect and many problems regarding health issues, environmental poisoning, etc.

And too often the "state" doesn't really care about that or just wants to deny its responsability, as for example for France and the Kepone scandal in Guadeloupe and Martinique.

A ticking timebomb about to explode with the Kepone used up until very recently in the banana plantations and both islands are contaminated (soil, water) and the cancer cases have started to pile up. And the State tried to debny responsability and it is still in "negociations"... Shameful!

12 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

 

Dont get me wrong. Our food over here is terrible. This is what happens when corporations are allowed to run rampant.

Agreed.

[atxcyclist]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

No, in fact my first post included an apology to all the rational Americans who were not being hypocrites.  II even reiterated that several posts later.  The difference between him and me is that I accept there are flaws in my countries health care system and crazy fruit bats that cause unnecessary deaths,  He does not see the hypocrisy of pretending everything in the US is above reproach while criticizing china without any real knowledge on the subject.

 

Many of the things he points to (right wrong or indifferent) are not proof of anything, he hasn't provided anything that shows a how this virus could have been avoided or what caused it to come into existence in the first place.   I do not bother rebutting moot points.  why bring up the US's efforts in ww2?  I am afraid it was because I showed him the US system is not perfect and people die there due to misinformation and clinging to the same alternative health practices that he accused the Chinese of.  he couldn't deny it so he tried to deflect and move the glory somewhere else. I am not buying into unfounded arguments, I will only discuss what we know.

 

I got vocal when you tried to put me into the anti-vaxxer group I wasn't part of, then hammered on me to apologize for it post after post, when I clearly am not going to apologize for something I'm not a part of. I never used the words perfect or flawless, only mentioned that our healthcare system and many other things are better here, and I'm not incorrect.

 

If the wet markets didn't exist or operated differently, SARS and this coronavirus wouldn't have been spread, and that's been proven by the scientific bodies that have studied them. You ignored that I said this and instead kept up your tirade of calling me a hypocrite, like I cannot reiterate what has already been proven. In your mind the US has some problems here and there and because of that we're not allowed to have a viewpoint on this subject. I brought up WWII and that other stuff because the world sure is happy AF to use technology we've invented and milestones we've met, then call us loud hypocrites in the next breath. The internet, your computer, every piece of technology and scientific advancement we've developed you happily use, but we cannot have a viewpoint on world issues. It's why your apology means nothing, because clearly you think you're better than us, and that's sentiment Americans are both familiar with and expect.

 

 

[mr moose]

29 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I got vocal when you tried to put me into the anti-vaxxer group I wasn't part of, then hammered on me to apologize for it post after post, when I clearly am not going to apologize for something I'm not a part of. I never used the words perfect or flawless, only mentioned that our healthcare system and many other things are better here, and I'm not incorrect.

 

If the wet markets didn't exist or operated differently, SARS and this coronavirus wouldn't have been spread, and that's been proven by the scientific bodies that have studied them. You ignored that I said this and instead kept up your tirade of calling me a hypocrite, like I cannot reiterate what has already been proven. In your mind the US has some problems here and there and because of that we're not allowed to have a viewpoint on this subject. I brought up WWII and that other stuff because the world sure is happy AF to use technology we've invented and milestones we've met, then call us loud hypocrites in the next breath. The internet, your computer, every piece of technology and scientific advancement we've developed you happily use, but we cannot have a viewpoint on world issues. It's why your apology means nothing, because clearly you think you're better than us, and that's sentiment Americans are both familiar with and expect.

 

 

I didn't put you in the same boat as antivaxxers, I said when they exist in your country causing your country to have just as many failings then it is hypocritical to criticize another country for similar issues.   Hell you've even got people in this very thread explaining how they can't access medical treatment because.your systems has flaws and there are DOCTORS in your country selling woo science and anti vaccines nonsense endangering even more people. 

 

The issue you are missing here is you are in no position to criticize china for anything, you lack the knowledge on the ground, you lack an understanding of this virus and the country you are in is in no moral or ethical position to pass judgment. 

 

You are the exact person that tweet was aimed at, and that is showing evidencing itself in the fact that you are the only one who has a problem with it and are trying to argue it as fallacious. Everyone else seems to understand this or at the very least saw the irony in people from western worlds criticizing china for something that is uncontrollable when their own country can't even control something we've had a vaccine for for decades.

 

 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I got vocal when you tried to put me into the anti-vaxxer group I wasn't part of, then hammered on me to apologize for it post after post, when I clearly am not going to apologize for something I'm not a part of. I never used the words perfect or flawless, only mentioned that our healthcare system and many other things are better here, and I'm not incorrect.

 

If the wet markets didn't exist or operated differently, SARS and this coronavirus wouldn't have been spread, and that's been proven by the scientific bodies that have studied them. You ignored that I said this and instead kept up your tirade of calling me a hypocrite, like I cannot reiterate what has already been proven. In your mind the US has some problems here and there and because of that I'm not allowed to have a viewpoint on the subject. I brought up WWII and that other stuff because the world sure is happy AF to use technology we've invented and milestones we've met, then call us loud hypocrites in the next breath. The internet, your computer, every piece of technology and scientific advancement we've developed you happily use, but we cannot have a viewpoint on world issues. It's why your apology meant nothing, because clearly you think you're better than us, and that's sentiment Americans are familiar with.

 

 

The Internet???  YOU (the US) created the Internet???  All by yourself? On your own?

And the Apollo program too, of course, all on your own! The 1600+ German scientists you brought back in the US after WWII (Operation Paperclip) have absolutely nothing to do with that...

 

Yes, the US did make some technological advancement, absolutely. But certainly not all on his own. And yes!! Sure! We will use it! We PAY for it!!

 

But I will certainly not forget to thank the CERN too for "inventing" the email, the World Wide Web, HTML, etc.

And also Linus Torvald - you know, that Finnish guy! - who developped one of the most stable OS for the Internet. Most of the servers around the world run on it.

Oh! And another one we should absolutely NOT forget about: Turing! Without him forget about the great computers "you" created all on your own...

 

 

Edited to add:
Science, development are collaborative. It comes from confrontation, exchange, communication, from everywhere and everyone. New developments don't just appear out of thin air.
I'm amazed to have to write something so obvious down.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Guest

[Bombastinator]

Everything everywhere causes cancer.  Just not very much.  Oxygen causes cancer.  It’s just a lot less deadly to breathe.   You did a little every day.

 

The problem is we’ve gotten really good at detecting carcinogens and marketers have gotten really good at playing on people’s fears. Every time is see “scientists say” I can pretty much assume that no they probably actually didn’t.  There are exceptions.  Generally when there’s a vested interest denying it something may deserve a closer look.
 

The question is what causes a LOT of cancer?   Generally the things that cause barely any are trumpeted in health and food news because it makes someone rich richer, and the things that cause a lot are carefully hidden because someone is making a lot of money off them and wants to get away from retribution before the bottom falls out.

[atxcyclist]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:15 AM, mr moose said:

Spoiler

 

I didn't put you in the same boat as antivaxxers, I said when they exist in your country causing your country to have just as many failings then it is hypocritical to criticize another country for similar issues.   Hell you've even got people in this very thread explaining how they can't access medical treatment because.your systems has flaws and there are DOCTORS in your country selling woo science and anti vaccines nonsense endangering even more people. 

 

The issue you are missing here is you are in no position to criticize china for anything, you lack the knowledge on the ground, you lack an understanding of this virus and the country you are in is in no moral or ethical position to pass judgment. 

 

You are the exact person that tweet was aimed at, and that is showing evidencing itself in the fact that you are the only one who has a problem with it and are trying to argue it as fallacious. Everyone else seems to understand this or at the very least saw the irony in people from western worlds criticizing china for something that is uncontrollable when their own country can't even control something we've had a vaccine for for decades.

 

 

 

But they don't include everyone in my country, so I have every ability to say what my viewpoint is, even if you, the self-proclaimed arbiter of all things says I can not; Get over yourself. That guy having problems has something very unique, I don't know why he cannot access that system but that's his state's system and not mine. There's maybe a handful of doctors doing that, and they are not respected by most of the population, so what is your actual point other than you don't understand how many doctors we have here?

 

I have the same position to criticize as you do, unless you've concluded that whatever problems your country has invalidated your viewpoint as well. The biologists and doctors studying these diseases have said what they've said and I've reiterated it; China wet markets are a health hazard, that's not debatable.

 

How do you figure? Because I don't believe that some guy on Twitter has all the answers? Because I'm aware that a country known for egregious health and safety issues has aspects that are worse than mine? You have no skin in this game, you can flame me all you want because you think the US has no business having a viewpoint. Typical, and you guys wonder why people in the US have connotations about people elsewhere, it's basically this insistence that we shouldn't speak about issues.

Edited February 11, 2020 by LogicalDrm

[mr moose]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:27 AM, Cora_Lie said:

Spoiler

 

The Internet???  YOU (the US) created the Internet???  All by yourself? On your own?

And the Apollo program too, of course, all on your own! The 1600+ German scientists you brought back in the US after WWII (Operation Paperclip) have absolutely nothing to do with that...

 

Yes, the US did make some technological advancement, absolutely. But certainly not all on his own. And yes!! Sure! We will use it! We PAY for it!!

 

But I will certainly not forget to thank the CERN too for "inventing" the email, the World Wide Web, HTML, etc.

And also Linus Torvald - you know, that Finnish guy! - who developped one of the most stable OS for the Internet. Most of the servers around the world run on it.

Oh! And another one we should absolutely NOT forget about: Turing! Without him forget about the great computers "you" created all on your own...

 

 

 

PSSST, don't let him know that most of the science behind everything nuclear is founded on the work of russians.    

 

At any rate,m all that talk about who did what and when is irrelevant and simply a distraction tactic to avoid having to accept that in the greater scheme of things his country is just as messed up as everyone else's.

Edited February 11, 2020 by LogicalDrm

[Donut417]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:27 AM, Cora_Lie said:

The Internet???  YOU (the US) created the Internet???  All by yourself? On your own?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET

 

That right there is the foundation that would become the internet. Is was created for the US military. This was due to the fact that certian cities in the US were communication hubs. If a nuke took out one of those cities large parts of the country would be cut off in terms of communications. So yes, we at least invested the foundation of what would become the internet. Your WELCOME. 

 

Dont get me wrong. I have tons of contempt for my country. I mean its ran by a bunch of morons. But you just like to take the knife stick it in and twist. Dont worry I have just as much or even more contempt for the EU. 

 

On 2/1/2020 at 4:37 AM, mr moose said:

don't let him know that most of the science behind everything nuclear is founded on the work of russians.    

Thats kinda funny considering they had to steal the plans for the Atomic Bomb from the US. 

[Bombastinator]

On 2/1/2020 at 3:39 AM, atxcyclist said:

Spoiler

 

I got vocal when you tried to put me into the anti-vaxxer group I wasn't part of, then hammered on me to apologize for it post after post, when I clearly am not going to apologize for something I'm not a part of. I never used the words perfect or flawless, only mentioned that our healthcare system and many other things are better here, and I'm not incorrect.

 

If the wet markets didn't exist or operated differently, SARS and this coronavirus wouldn't have been spread, and that's been proven by the scientific bodies that have studied them. You ignored that I said this and instead kept up your tirade of calling me a hypocrite, like I cannot reiterate what has already been proven. In your mind the US has some problems here and there and because of that we're not allowed to have a viewpoint on this subject. I brought up WWII and that other stuff because the world sure is happy AF to use technology we've invented and milestones we've met, then call us loud hypocrites in the next breath. The internet, your computer, every piece of technology and scientific advancement we've developed you happily use, but we cannot have a viewpoint on world issues. It's why your apology means nothing, because clearly you think you're better than us, and that's sentiment Americans are both familiar with and expect.

 

 

 

The wet market thing isn’t wrong exactly but it’s woefully out of date.  Chinese people don’t like getting sick anymore than anyone else.  Look what happened with that baby formula thing.

Edited February 11, 2020 by LogicalDrm

[mr moose]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

But they don't include everyone in my country,

 

And neither do the practices you are so liberally trying to imply about china. That is the irony and hypocrisy of your claims.  You are trying to dismiss it as it happens in your country but you are happy to argue it is as common as breathing in china.

 

 

 

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Thats kinda funny considering they had to steal the plans for the Atomic Bomb from the US. 

I understand they weren’t stolen.  Someone was more terrified of US nuclear dominance than nuclear bombs in Russian hands and gave them to them.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

Thats kinda funny considering they had to steal the plans for the Atomic Bomb from the US. 

 

what goes around comes around.  No one is a standout "we did it all ourselves",   every person, scientist, country and business develops what they do of the back of other peoples work.

[Donut417]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

I understand they weren’t stolen.  Someone was more terrified of US nuclear dominance than nuclear bombs in Russian hands and gave them to them.

Did the Russians have permission? No... They were stolen. 

[atxcyclist]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:27 AM, Cora_Lie said:

Spoiler

 

The Internet???  YOU (the US) created the Internet???  All by yourself? On your own?

And the Apollo program too, of course, all on your own! The 1600+ German scientists you brought back in the US after WWII (Operation Paperclip) have absolutely nothing to do with that...

 

Yes, the US did make some technological advancement, absolutely. But certainly not all on his own. And yes!! Sure! We will use it! We PAY for it!!

 

But I will certainly not forget to thank the CERN too for "inventing" the email, the World Wide Web, HTML, etc.

And also Linus Torvald - you know, that Finnish guy! - who developped one of the most stable OS for the Internet. Most of the servers around the world run on it.

Oh! And another one we should absolutely NOT forget about: Turing! Without him forget about the great computers "you" created all on your own...

 

 

Edited to add:
Science, development are collaborative. It comes from confrontation, exchange, communication, from everywhere and everyone. New developments don't just appear out of thin air.
I'm amazed to have to write something so obvious down.

 

 

 

Yes, we. We spearheaded the project and built infrastructure here and tested it before anyone else ever saw it.

 

And the thousands of US scientists/engineers that worked on it as well, like my grandfather that worked with and knew von Braun personally.

 

Without our work on the "meat and potatoes" it wouldn't exist, so while their inclusions are great we essentially built the bones of it.

Edited February 11, 2020 by LogicalDrm

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Did the Russians have permission? No... They were stolen. 

Arguably.  But not by them.

[SpikeSpiegel]

 

This doctor cannot leave the hospital and collapses from exhaustion