Europe Parliament accelerating transition to Electric Cars

[Dabombinable]

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Yes, but fuelcells need hydrogen. Debsity of Hydrogen is god awful, like its terrible. 

 

The density just makes it a logistical nightmare.

HFC have far greater ranges with:

•  fuelling time measured in minutes not hours
• sustainability via natural gas or electrolysis (both of which would be best when paired with nuclear power)
• less pollution during manufacturing
• less environmental damage from mining the materials

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

I know, thats why i wrote under that image:

 

Plus there are 4T models that have catalyzer, 2T dont have them because the oil would clog it up over time (its a slow process because most modern 2T engines use ~1:50 mix).

 

/EDIT

Unless you use liquid form to store it....

Or just highly compress it. It may be the least dense gas but its also got the highest energy potential.

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

I know, thats why i wrote under that image:

 

Plus there are 4T models that have catalyzer, 2T dont have them because the oil would clog it up over time (its a slow process because most modern 2T engines use ~1:50 mix).

 

Ah, sorry for some reason was blind to that. Yed there are better examples, but last time i checked a 2013 motorbike vs a 2013 car they were still quite a bit apart.

 

Yeah they still use 1:50 mixture (at least from my 2013 model reference).

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

HFC have far greater ranges with:

•  fuelling time measured in minutes not hours
• sustainability via natural gas or electrolysis (both of which would be best when paired with nuclear power)
• less pollution during manufacturing
• less environmental damage from mining the materials

Its great, but the logistical nightmare that is hydrogen prevents it from being used in smaller vehicles. There is a general consensis it will be used in larger vehicles such as trucks. In smaller vehicles electric is going to be the thing. 

[Dabombinable]

2 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Its great, but the logistical nightmare that is hydrogen prevents it from being used in smaller vehicles. There is a general consensis it will be used in larger vehicles such as trucks. In smaller vehicles electric is going to be the thing. 

Thing is, when used in drones for example a fuel cell provides greater range than the original lithium ion batteries while also being significantly lighter...meaning that less energy is wasted in overcoming its weight. Also, you really don't need that much hydrogen to power small vehicles.

[RejZoR]

18 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Since we are talking about EVs now. Anyone heard of public transport? Its this great thing that lets you cross countries while being asleep. 

 

There are some points allready adressed in your post allready adressed somewhere in the 9 page forum post there now is. I wont blame you for repeating as noone would read through the entire thing to make a post at the end.

 

Yes range on EVs arent up to par with regular gas vehicles. Nor is the charge rate. That still leaves a majority of a population that doesnt need the range. For those that need range there are things like plugin hybrids.

Planning a day or two ahead for everything because you're limited by range is a problem. Plugin hybrids are total BS. They are just heavy because they stuff extra electro motor and tons of batteries in it and you don't really benefit anything from it other than fancy large "MPG" number on the dash which is just a sand thrown in the eyes of the foolish. The pure EV is always at some stupid low speed and usually lasts for like 25 kilometers (with the best options!) which is just worthless.

 

16 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

The thing that takes double amount of time in case of commute than when i go to work with motorbike? No thanks......

In the time I'd be waiting for a bus to even arrive I'd already come to a destination with a car. And that's exactly what I do. Plus I'm not tied to anything and I don't need to smell other people's armpits and inhale their coughs...

 

13 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Still not understanding why hydrogen fuel cells aren't being pursued for electric cars. They are a hell of a lot greener, sustainable and convenient.

My guess is, someone along the way smelled big business with the batteries. I mean, just look how they are selling them literally per tonnes now. It's a big business making and selling batteries. Hydrogen fuel cell cars have all the benefits of the petrol car with none of the inconveniences of the battery ones. But they are still EV's in the end.

[GoldenLag]

28 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Thing is, when used in drones for example a fuel cell provides greater range than the original lithium ion batteries while also being significantly lighter...meaning that less energy is wasted in overcoming its weight. Also, you really don't need that much hydrogen to power small vehicles.

You dont need a lot no. But it is the weight of hydrogen that makes it hard to handle. Its it very un-dense. Which is one of the main reasons it not used as a rocketfuel (it is but kerozene and methane are preffered) 

 

Im not saying ots impossible, but from an engineering standpoint creating small vehicles with sufficient hydrogen is not easy. The tanks containing hydrogen generally have to be huge, or highly pressurized. (both options add weight) (also hydrogen really doesnt like being on fire.) (lets not forget to mention a pressurized tank is not nice if it gets punktured)

[GoldenLag]

8 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Planning a day or two ahead for everything because you're limited by range is a problem. Plugin hybrids are total BS. They are just heavy because they stuff extra electro motor and tons of batteries in it and you don't really benefit anything from it other than fancy large "MPG" number on the dash which is just a sand thrown in the eyes of the foolish. The pure EV is always at some stupid low speed and usually lasts for like 25 kilometers (with the best options!) which is just worthless.

a Prius (2017) claims roughly 50km EV (what best options are you comparing to?). how many have commutes larger than 35km (1 way as you can charge at work)? as far as i know hybrids drop the heavy transimission for a generator. (you are familiar with the electric transmission) its heavy, but its not like an full EV + full CV in a single vehicle. 

 

one of the main benefits is not having to spend fuel on commutes while also being able to do very long trips. 

 

im not saying CVs dont have their benefits, hybrids just cover a gap between CV and EVs. 

[RejZoR]

Why everyone just automatically assume you can just plug cars everywhere. That's not how any of it works.

[GoldenLag]

5 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Why everyone just automatically assume you can just plug cars everywhere. That's not how any of it works.

*looks outside

shure as hell appears to be the case in more and more locations. its almost like its supply and demand..........

[Mihle]

@RejZoR most people don't do a 200 km trip+ every week. If you do you are rather the minority rather than the majority. Also, never said electric car is for everyone. Some people can't, but they could probably have hybrid.

 

There will be more superchargers over time. 30 min or less get you relatively long range.

 

And if you like take long trips 3 times a year for example, you can just rent a car for those three. But as I said electric is not for everyone, but it can for a lot of people.

 

Price depend on the country. My country no tax or vat or what you would call it on electric cars at all, but more than most other countries on petrol/diesel ones.

 

Also, price of electric cars will hopefully go down compared to its range in the future.

 

Also, even if your country runs on coal, that hopefully changes in the future, if not, in my opinion another government that will should be voted in.

 

Also even even if not, electric cars move the gasses out of the cities because the power plants usually isn't in the cities.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, GoldenLag said:

Ah, sorry for some reason was blind to that. Yed there are better examples, but last time i checked a 2013 motorbike vs a 2013 car they were still quite a bit apart.

NP, i missed one of your post too... BTW even if they are apart in big cities where jams are common place the motor will be less polluting than a car sitting in the jam...

 

1 hour ago, GoldenLag said:

Its hery nice for those who cant afford a motorbike, or fuel, or maintinence. But can scrape together enough for a bus pass each month. 

 

If its that fast ti commute. Why not an electric motorbike, or just a bicicle

Electric bikes are still more expensive than a used 2T, and the monthly buss pass costs as much as my fuel cost per month so no point dwelling on it...

[GoldenLag]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

Electric bikes are still more expensive than a used 2T, and the monthly buss pass costs as much as my fuel cost per month so no point dwelling on it...

you do avoid maintinence cost. i can get a county-pass for busses for about 30-40$ (as a student) allows me to travel everywhere within the county by buss. this county is also littered with ferries and a vehicle just makes it a lot more expencive.

 

hopefully electric bikes drop in cost. tbf, the used market is littered with t2 mopeds and bikes. as far as i know electric is just catching on in regions, its not all that surprising. 

 

4 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

NP, i missed one of your post too... BTW even if they are apart in big cities where jams are common place the motor will be less polluting than a car sitting in the jam...

very true, but imo (and this is very much my opinion) traffic should be moved out of cities in favor of public transport options. all the crossections in cities are doomed to be filled with jams (and not the sweet or groovy kind of jam)

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

you do avoid maintinence cost

Like a 2T would need a lot of maintenance... To top it off you can do it all yourself at home which is pretty big pro vs an electric bike where you need to take it to a specialist.

 

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

for about 30-40$

My fuel cost is about half of that.

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, Mihle said:

@RejZoR most people don't do a 200 km trip+ every week. If you do you are rather the minority rather than the majority. Also, never said electric car is for everyone. Some people can't, but they could probably have hybrid.

 

There will be more superchargers over time. 30 or less get you relatively long range.

 

And if you like take long trips 3 times a year for example, you can just rent a car for those two. But as I said electric is not for everyone, but it can for a lot of people.

 

Price depend on the country. My country no tax or vat or what you would call it on electric cars at all but more than most other countries on petrol/diesel ones.

 

Also, price of electric cars will hopefully go down compared to its range in the future.

 

Also, even if your country runs on coal, that hopefully changes in the future, if not, in my opinion another government that will should be voted in.

 

Also even even if not, electric cars move the gasses out of the cities because the power plants usually isn't in the cities.

This is it, outside of specialty uses, a hybrid will easily make up the difference where you can't charge or don't have time to charge.

 

I have friends who are completely off the grid and they bought a hybrid.  Which means the only time they can charge the car is during the day when the sun is shining,  Even with this huge ass issue to contend with and the fact we are semi rural and have no charging stations around,  they still use fuck all petrol and manage to run mostly as an EV.   Living proof that it isn't all death and suffering.

[jagdtigger]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

they still use fuck all petrol

Oh yeah because the petrol engine wont consume more when its charging that big-ass battery.... /s

[GoldenLag]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

My fuel cost is about half of that.

its a county pass. you get commute passes for cheaper. also the county is littered with ferries, they cost about 8$ each way. if you do commute between two towns the cost racks up very quickly. im unshure about pricing in other counties. 

 

2 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Like a 2T would need a lot of maintenance... To top it off you can do it all yourself at home which is pretty big pro vs an electric bike where you need to take it to a specialist.

that is one of the reasons 2t bikes are super popular. especially mopeds as they can easily be fitted with larger engines and so fourth. personally i would own an electric bike, but used market didnt allow it. (my commute passes by a checkupstations)

[Ross Siggers]

Governments should push for EV taxis in cities. Set up charge points at taxi ranks and popular locations, and provide incentives for taxi drivers to purchase an EV when upgrading/replacing their vehicle.

This sort of work is mostly inner city, can often involve being parked up at assigned taxi ranks periodically during the day, are predominantly short trips, and when combined, probably do a huge percentage of a cities driven mileage each day. It's a untapped use case.

 

18 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

The monthly buss pass costs as much as my fuel cost per month so no point dwelling on it...

Your public transport network must be appalling. I can get a quarterly bus pass for my city for £30 a month...I probably spend £100-120 on petrol if I commute daily.

As it stands, I drive half the time, and bus the other. It's the fact that the service isn't on time, and in summer, the buses are unbearably hot(no ac). But like I said a few posts earlier, governments should push improvements to public transport to get people away from petrol vehicles. It's a stepping stone to lower emissions. Also the buses in my city are hybrids, which is good.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Oh yeah because the petrol engine wont consume more when its charging that big-ass battery.... /s

It uses 3 litres to perform a full recharge.  And much less while driving because it also has regen breaking. 

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, Ross Siggers said:

Governments should push for EV taxis in cities. Set up charge points at taxi ranks and popular locations, and provide incentives for taxi drivers to purchase an EV when upgrading/replacing their vehicle.

the issue is to make an EV capable to be charged in the brake time that such drivers have to take, but also to make it able to drive constantly in that period while they are working, with some overhead. 

 

using heavy vehicles and laws on them in my region is would be 4 and a half hour driving and a 45min brake (charging during the brake). the law has extra notes for longer driving periods, but i dont want to get into details there. 

[jagdtigger]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It uses 3 litres to perform a full recharge.

Gasoline has 35,3 kWh/gal, thats about 10 kWh/l. Then there are are losses in the system too so i highly doubt thats true.

[Mihle]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

1. Read the qoute...

 

2. Same with pedestrians, if you fear death dont go out from you house...

 

Its hungarian but the main point is understandable i think:

  Reveal hidden contents

3. As for other gases motorbikes do not stand still in the jam unlike cars so in the long run they are better.

 

4. Most ppl gets 400€ vage, half that goes into the house(rental/loan and other expenses). So no, they cannot afford to buy an EV then pay even more more to rent a car whenever they need the bigger range.

 

5. Its basic chemistry, the lower the temperature the lower the capacity. And based on my experience with my phone and helmet cam its pretty close to half.....

1. I did, yes Tesla is for rich people but I don't consider i3 as it. More like middle of middle class and up, depending on how much you want to prioritize car over other stuff. (4.)Depends on the normal salary in the country tho. Like in East Europe with poorer salary, then it's something else.

 

2. Actually, no. Being a pedestrian is much safer than motorcycle. Normal bike is also a lot  safer if you don't bike as an idiot. Motorcycle is the single least safe normal method of transport.

 

3. Never said anything against that motorbike can get faster last traffic jam. But the number of traffic jams you go through depend on where you live, where you work and what time you usually travel at.

 

5. Electric cars usually have a feature where you can set a set time each day where you usually travel away, and it warms the battery up somewhat while charging to that time. Also while you are using it it doesn't get that cold.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

Gasoline has 35,3 kWh/gal, thats about 10 kWh/l. Then there are are losses in the system too so i highly doubt thats true.

Doubt all you want, I don't care, I've seen it with my own eyes.  And thee spec sheet even claims a recharge of 9.8Kwh. so accounting for losses 3L sounds accurate.

 

[jagdtigger]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And thee spec sheet even claims a recharge of 9.8Kwh.

Spec sheets claim that petrol cars can go under 6l/100km, in reality not so much. Pull your head out of the sand....

[Mihle]

5 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

Because density of hydrogen sucks. Its basicly one of the buggest reasons why not to use hydrogen. 

 

5 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

I'm talking about fuel cells, not burning hydrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#Fuel_cell_electric_vehicles_(FCEVs)

 

Hydrogen is really really energy inefficient to make. It takes so much energy to split hydrogen out of water, the most common way to make it. Electric cars are much more efficient. Also, recharging/refilling whatever you call it would be more expensive than full electric because if it. 

 

@Dabombinable also, it gets even less efficient making it to a liquid, we are talking 50% of that of electric or something, can't quite remember the exact numbers.

 

[GoldenLag]

17 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Spec sheets claim that petrol cars can go under 6l/100km, in reality not so much. Pull your head out of the sand....

Considering my brothers old-ish Saab does around 6L per 100km during long stretches of road and trips, that isnt unreasonable. (I cant confirm the numbers, but those are numbers spouted by my brother regurarly)

Edited October 5, 2018 by GoldenLag