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Majestic

AMD once again violating power specifications? (AMD RX-480)

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1 hour ago, TheRandomness said:

Why is this such a big issue? It draws more power than specs allow (10 more W..), so?

it draws power from the PCIe power lanes on the motherboard - if it exceeds the manufacturer's projected rating, it will fry your mobo in a split second

 

who's gonna' pay, AMD!? :dry:

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I don't think this is something that an 8 pin instead of an 6 pin can't fix, given if AIBs switch it. Like they added another 6 or 8 pins on 1080. Even without this I wouldn't recommend a stock 480 to anyone.


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looks like people who were on the hype train have had there face sat on and given a big pile of steaming shit from AMD


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1 minute ago, RxL said:

looks like people who were on the hype train have had there face sat on and given a big pile of steam shit from AMD

Me too, sadly...


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1 hour ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Not according to Guru3D's measurements:

not measurements, they calculated it

Tom's uses osciloscopes and other measuring tools on each rail

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23 minutes ago, zMeul said:

it draws power from the PCIe power lanes on the motherboard - if it exceeds the manufacturer's projected rating, it will fry your mobo in a split second

 

who's gonna' pay, AMD!? :dry:

That post was made assuming it was 10W over the overall spec for PCIe slot + 6 pin.


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1 hour ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I know you're being sarcastic but it certainly isn't the first time.  We can all help try to make it the last time though by sending a message about them doing this.  Maybe companies lie because every time they do, the product sells anyway and people move on and just expect it to happen again?

Issue is Nvidia is never punished for their lies :/

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7 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

Issue is Nvidia is never punished for their lies :/

And AMD, or literally any other company is any different? Most people accept something, and then move on with life. 


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2 hours ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

I can't believe how much power this card uses. When I saw the performance numbers this morning I was impressed, but that was back when I was thinking this was a card that typically uses 110W in gaming loads, not freaking 165W. So it's a slightly more power hungry GTX 970 released 21 months later. Except the 970 was 28 nm, so AMD hasn't gotten their performance per watt under control at all. Where does this leave Vega? 300W to match a 1080?

 

What a disgrace to see them use a 6-pin power connector out of spec to push the narrative of this being some great power efficient card. And then the bait and switch by advertising it as a $199 card and only sending $239 review samples with higher clocked memory to the reviewers.

This was answered, AMD specifically sent reviewers a custom bios to flash that would limit the card to 4GBs and clock speeds, bandwidth ECT to perfectly match the $199 card.


 

 

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just dont buy the reference cards fairly sure Asus and GB etc will want to push these hard and will probably redo the power setup to give it sufficient power from the PSU


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4 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

And AMD, or literally any other company is any different? Most people accept something, and then move on with life. 

3.5GB of VRAM :)


 

 

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Do they not understand PCIE does 75W too...


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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11 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

Issue is Nvidia is never punished for their lies :/

Which is as big a shame as AMD going unchecked for this.  I'm not playing favourites at all - it's just that right now AMD is in the spotlight.  I'd advocate the same harsh feelings toward any other company if they did the same thing.

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3 minutes ago, Eroda said:

just dont buy the reference cards fairly sure Asus and GB etc will want to push these hard and will probably redo the power setup to give it sufficient power from the PSU

You literally just picked the two worst AMD AiB partners. Sapphire & MSI <3


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6 minutes ago, DarkBlade2117 said:

This was answered, AMD specifically sent reviewers a custom bios to flash that would limit the card to 4GBs and clock speeds, bandwidth ECT to perfectly match the $199 card.

Actually custom bioses nonsense sounds to me that it might very well be the culprint of this.


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I wonder if other AMD cards are affected and if any Nvidia cards are affected. The 1080 obviously isn't.

 

And a reworked power delivery would obviously fix it but if a hardware fix is required, that could result in recalls if the pressure is high enough on AMD. If a software fix is possible, that would be the best scenario for all parties.

 

And I don't believe it would involve throttling (which has been suggested) as it would hardly solve the problem as the card seems willing to draw a lot of power off the bus when it should hard limit itself to 75W~. To bring it down to that through throttling, you'd have to reduce speeds considerably as the power draw seems to go somewhat hand in hand on both bus and aux, so you'd have to throttle to a point where both sources go below that at peak (hypothetically speaking of course)

 

So an actual fix is necessary, not a detrimental work around.

 

I will note that I'm glad that these things are discovered even though it saddens me that it's tainted the launch of the card.

It's good that companies are kept in check, especially when things slip past internal testing.

It can only improve future products so that we're unlikely to see this problem again.

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24 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

Do they not understand PCIE does 75W too...

when power draw exceeds 150W with the reference 480 design, the extra power is routed from the pci-e slot and not the 6-pin connector. That's the biggest problem. and this is at stock too. Tom's didn't do any serious overclocking because they were afraid for their specialized test rig.


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12 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

when power draw exceeds 150W with the reference 480 design, the extra power is routed from the pci-e slot and not the 6-pin connector. That's the biggest problem. and this is at stock too. Tom's didn't do any serious overclocking because they were afraid for their specialized test rig.

But

Why....

Why not the logical option (being the PCIe cables)?


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2 minutes ago, TheRandomness said:

But

Why....

Why not the logical option (being the PCIe cables)?

Poor engineering, faulty bios, plain stupidity...take your pick 


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15 minutes ago, TheRandomness said:

But

Why....

Why not the logical option (being the PCIe cables)?

Here's what someone had to say over in hardforum.com, take with a giant grain of salt, but its pretty interesting.

 

and from reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/4qfwd4/rx480_fails_pcie_specification/

 

Quote

With Tom's Hardware reporting that the RX 480 draws (substantailly) more than the 75W allowed from the motherboard (for example, the PCI Express high-power card spec allows a mazimum of 66W to be drawn from the 12V pins of the PCI Express slot, and the RX 480 averages 79W from the 12V lines alone) AMD seems to be violating the PCI Express(R) spec. Of course, I'd love to see HardOCP try to duplicate Tom's results.

According to the licensing contract for the spec, if they do not fix this within 3 months, AMD will NOT be able to call the card a PCI Express card. If they do, they face not only litigation, but if my understanding is correct an action before the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) to ban the importation of the card as counterfeit goods. You might think the PCI-SIG will give AMD a pass, but if they do, they risk loosing the trademark entirely. An unforced trademark gets invalidated. The SIG won't let that happen.

So what does this mean to the consumer? I think there are two possibilities, if we assume AMD will not choose to remove the PCI Express logos from these cards: Either they will alter the boards to have an 8-pin socket and to pull more power from there, or they will neuter the card to ensure it doesn't draw more power than the PCI Express specification allows. I don't see any other options.

Disclaimer: I am an attorney, but I practice patent law, not trademark law. This post does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship.

 


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2 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Poor engineering, faulty bios, plain stupidity...take your pick 

I want it to be the former or the middle one.. But something tells me it might be the latter.

1 minute ago, Briggsy said:

Here's what someone had to say over in hardforum.com, take with a giant grain of salt, but its pretty interesting.

Just reading that makes me want to get a 6 pin version just in case that happens so I can be part of a group of people who own a card which isn't a card :P


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Laptop: MacBook Pro 13.3 inch late 2013 model i7-4558U (2C/4T @ 3.3GHz Turbo) Intel Iris 5100 graphics (1200MHz boosts) 8GB DDR3-1600 Soldered on 2560 x 1600 display (Looks very nice) Win7 Pro

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Box (Brother's Rig): R5 1500X | Stock AMD Cooler | ASRock B450 Pro4 | Asus HD 7970 3GB Matrix Platinum | 2x8GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-2666 | Crucial BX200 240GB | Aerocool Strike-X 500W | Win7 Home Premium

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Spiky Box (Sister's Rig): G3258 | Cooler Master Seidon 120V V2 | Asus Z97 Sabertooth Mark I | Sapphire R9 290X 4GB Vapor-X | 2x4GB Crucial Ballistix DDR3-1600 | 1TB Seagate Barracuda | Corsair CX600 | Aerocool Xpredator X3 Red/Gold edition (My old case) | MSX 

USEFUL LINKS:

PSU Whitelist | PSU Tier List F@H stats | Mining Ethereum

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1 hour ago, Misanthrope said:

As they said themselves most durable motherboards will run into no issues and most reviewers have good motherboards and fairly clean in terms of other pci-e cards and such since well, it's a test bench. It could have honestly gone by them.

Problem being is this is a cheap graphics card for someone that doesn't want to spend a lot of money on a system. A sub $100 is not even close to being as durable as a $300+ motherboard.

 

This can really wreck some systems if people want to overclock on bad boards.


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1 minute ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Problem being is this is a cheap graphics card for someone that doesn't want to spend a lot of money on a system. A sub $100 is not even close to being as durable as a $300+ motherboard.

 

This can really wreck some systems if people want to overclock on bad boards.

That's a fairly good point. If it's reproducible on production models (cause of that whole custom bios for reviewers thingie) then yes it could be an issue.


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Current Rig

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1 hour ago, zMeul said:

it draws power from the PCIe power lanes on the motherboard - if it exceeds the manufacturer's projected rating, it will fry your mobo in a split second

 

who's gonna' pay, AMD!? :dry:

I wouldn't exactly say "split second". Besides, some boards include additional power to PCIe through molex connections. 

 

This is however, a serious issue that needs to be taken care of. It is not okay to go outside of spec on PCIE slots, because cheaper boards will fall victim to this and face potential damage if left unchecked. I am assuming this issue can be resolved with a BIOS tweak (Nvidia was able to cap the PCIE power consumption of Maxwell cards to roughly 60-65w through their BIOS). However, the additional power will have to come from somewhere, meaning additional load on 6 pin PCIE cable. While the official spec states 75w, it can safely go beyond this, but it depends entirely on the gauge of the cables themselves. Modern low end PSU's (EVGA 500B for example) tend to use 20AWG, which is perfectly fine for 100w+ on the 6 pin. I just disagree with putting that much load on these connectors for extreme long term.

 

This is indeed an oversight on AMD's part. I just hope it's fixed soon. 


My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

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