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AMD once again violating power specifications? (AMD RX-480)

Majestic
By Majestic
in Tech News
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Posted
3 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

That's a fairly good point. If it's reproducible on production models (cause of that whole custom bios for reviewers thingie) then yes it could be an issue.

Hopefully we can push some reviewers to get proper test equipment and start testing the cards on multiple boards and see how things fare. It is pretty concerning that you can hear the power draw straining the motherboard through your speakers, that's a lot of stress that will quickly wear a board out in no time. Honestly if you're going to market a card for the budget gamer at least make sure you won't kill their budget board. :/

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Posted
3 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Hopefully we can push some reviewers to get proper test equipment and start testing the cards on multiple boards and see how things fare. It is pretty concerning that you can hear the power draw straining the motherboard through your speakers, that's a lot of stress that will quickly wear a board out in no time. Honestly if you're going to market a card for the budget gamer at least make sure you won't kill their budget board. :/

I know even Tek Syndicate went with a Logan review instead of Wendell: he just mumbled useless crap as usual whereas Wendell always drops fucking science on the motherboard reviews he should handle the GPU reviews and with additional testing equipment and such.

 

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

I know even Tek Syndicate went with a Logan review instead of Wendell: he just mumbled useless crap as usual whereas Wendell always drops fucking science on the motherboard reviews he should handle the GPU reviews and with additional testing equipment and such.

I haven't watched Tek Syndicate in a long time simply because of that. I'll take a look at his video regardless though. I do agree, Wendell really should be more of a thing in the reviews because he actually knows what's going on inside the hardware and how to explain what's happening and whether it's good, bad, or just okay.

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Posted
2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

when power draw exceeds 150W with the reference 480 design, the extra power is routed from the pci-e slot and not the 6-pin connector. That's the biggest problem. and this is at stock too. Tom's didn't do any serious overclocking because they were afraid for their specialized test rig.

Well then. Maybe some after market cooling solutions could fix this

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 hour ago, laminutederire said:

Issue is Nvidia is never punished for their lies :/

295X2? AMD isn't either, however I'd say this is much more eggregious. As it could potentially cause damage, instead of simply being a smear on the product (as it didn't really affect the performance).

39 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

Here's what someone had to say over in hardforum.com, take with a giant grain of salt, but its pretty interesting.

 

and from reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/4qfwd4/rx480_fails_pcie_specification/

 

 

Interesting, and that also coincides with what I said earlier. I think the easiest option, given the fact the cards are being sold as we speak, is to neuter the cards. 

I'm not going to wear my tinfoil hat and say they did this with foreknowledge to get better reviewscores, but it's questionable if all outlets will revise their reviews once AMD restricts the cards.

 

Board partners might want to delay their aftermarket models and retrofit them with 8pins though ^^

Pascal Undervolting topic, get more out of your card with less power!

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1 hour ago, TheRandomness said:

You literally just picked the two worst AMD AiB partners. Sapphire & MSI <3

i dont buy Ati cards last one i purchased was a 9800 Nvidia has been good for me, although i would buy AMD CPU if they had something worth buying

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/4qfwd4/rx480_fails_pcie_specification/d4sy0c3

Clarification on this Issue
By AMD Robert
 

Quote

1) The RX 480 meets the bar for PCIe compliance testing with PCI-SIG. //edit: and interop with PCI Express. This is not just our internal testing. I think that should be made very clear. Obviously there are a few GPUs exhibiting anomalous behavior, and we've been in touch with these reviewers for a few days to better understand their test configurations to see how this could be possible.
2) Update #2 made by the OP is confused. There is a difference between ASIC power, which is what ONLY THE GPU CONSUMES (110W), and total graphics power (TGP), which is what the entire graphics card uses (150W). There has been no change in the spec, so I would ask that incorrect information stop being disseminated as "fact."
We will have more on this topic soon as we investigate, but it's worth reminding people that only a very small number of hundreds of RX 480 reviews worldwide encountered this issue. Clearly that makes it aberrant, rather than the rule, and we're working to get that number down to zero.
/edit for absolute factual clarity

 

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17 minutes ago, Majestic said:

295X2? AMD isn't either, however I'd say this is much more eggregious. As it could potentially cause damage, instead of simply being a smear on the product (as it didn't really affect the performance).

Interesting, and that also coincides with what I said earlier. I think the easiest option, given the fact the cards are being sold as we speak, is to neuter the cards. 

I'm not going to wear my tinfoil hat and say they did this with foreknowledge to get better reviewscores, but it's questionable if all outlets will revise their reviews once AMD restricts the cards.

 

Board partners might want to delay their aftermarket models and retrofit them with 8pins though ^^

I would expect all but the more cheap/basic cards to come with 8pin power anyway. 

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4 minutes ago, Prysin said:

you really are salty about the 295x2 aint ya.

i mean, i know you love to shitpost and everything. But you should read a few fucking books before making a post. Like books about, lets say.... electro technical fomulaes, laws and safety limits.

Whether it works is up the the individual parts. Whether it violates specifications is not even up for debate. Because it does.

I can't be arsed to argue specifics about wheter it works on specific combinations and compare gaugesizes to argue it's not a problem.

 

Simple fact of the matter is: it shipped with 2x 8pin and together with PCI-E slot puts it up to 366W max. It pulls 500W. End of story.

Pascal Undervolting topic, get more out of your card with less power!

Why high refreshrate monitors look better even without Freesync/G-sync in one image.
Stutters, framedrops, "lag". How to provide detailed information with your "bottleneck" question, as well as a few solutions.

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For all the people screaming about some extra wattage being pulled through the PCIe lanes and mobo 24-pin power connector, I'm just gonna leave this here....

And yes, I realize that there are other things that can factor into why the PCIe lanes are limited to a 75W TDP, things like interference with signals in neighboring circuits and what not. Blah-blah-blah.... (Insert Charlie Brown's teacher here....) 

No, I am not an electrical engineer and I do not have any kind of engineering degree, but I'm pretty sure if MSI can feed both a 6700k and dual 980's just through PCIe/MXM interface then I think AMD should be ok in this situation. There is a very good chance that this is just people freaking out before all the details are out there and that it's going to wind up to be nothing. Wait until AMD can work with Tom's and get to the bottom of this before you start getting into a flame war.

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2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Whether it works is up the the individual parts. Whether it violates specifications is not even up for debate. Because it does.

I can't be arsed to argue specifics about wheter it works on specific combinations and compare gaugesizes to argue it's not a problem.

 

Simple fact of the matter is, it shipped with 2x 8pin and that, together with PCI-E slot puts it up to 366W It pulls 500W. End of the story.

which specification?

the ATX spec?

the one that was removed March 2007?

 

Also, NO. it does not draw 500w.

Except in your cherry picked polished benches.

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2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

... it shipped with 2x 8pin and that, together with PCI-E slot puts it up to 366W...

not that it makes any difference in this context but shouldn't that be 375?

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19 minutes ago, Majestic said:

295X2? AMD isn't either, however I'd say this is much more eggregious. As it could potentially cause damage, instead of simply being a smear on the product (as it didn't really affect the performance).

Interesting, and that also coincides with what I said earlier. I think the easiest option, given the fact the cards are being sold as we speak, is to neuter the cards. 

I'm not going to wear my tinfoil hat and say they did this with foreknowledge to get better reviewscores, but it's questionable if all outlets will revise their reviews once AMD restricts the cards.

 

Board partners might want to delay their aftermarket models and retrofit them with 8pins though ^^

They're getting punished enough right now since a lot of people, me included, don't buy their products even though they would have.

While Nvidia has still a loooooot of people buying their products even when they lie or else.

For all we know, AMD haven't seen that issue and they're as embarrassed as we are, while nvidia plainly lied.

But that's another debate.

I think it's either a wrong manipulation from reviewers, or some faulty chips, or a faulty design. In either cases, AMD isn't doing so well, so they have to be kind to their customers, because they lack customers to be frank.

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6 minutes ago, DevilishBooster said:

For all the people screaming about some extra wattage being pulled through the PCIe lanes and mobo 24-pin power connector, I'm just gonna leave this here....

 

And yes, I realize that there are other things that can factor into why the PCIe lanes are limited to a 75W TDP, things like interference with signals in neighboring circuits and what not. No, I am not an electrical engineer and I do not have any kind of engineering degree, but I'm pretty sure if MSI can feed both a 6700k and dual 980's just through PCIe/MXA interface then I think AMD should be ok in this situation. There is a very good chance that this is just people freaking out before all the details are out there and that it's going to wind up to be nothing. Wait until AMD can work with Tom's and get to the bottom of this before you start getting into a flame war.

That mainboard was specifically designed in-house by MSI to function as the mainboard for these units, expect precautions were taken. How is something that custom even remotely relevant. Do you think all mainboard manuf. outfit all their boards with those specifications? 

 

Also, PCI-E limitation is not measured in TDP...

5 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

not that it makes any difference in this context but shouldn't that be 375?

Someone said earlier it was 66W when talking about the license. It doesn't really matter much in this case though. The only saving grace of the 295X is that it mainly pulls hard on the 8-pins. The PCI-E slot remains at 28W. 

 

So you CAN correct for the ridiculous power usage with a better power supply on the 295X. You can't with the 480X

Pascal Undervolting topic, get more out of your card with less power!

Why high refreshrate monitors look better even without Freesync/G-sync in one image.
Stutters, framedrops, "lag". How to provide detailed information with your "bottleneck" question, as well as a few solutions.

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3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Someone said earlier it was 66W when talking about the license.

Well as far as I know PCIe slots* are normally limited to 25 W except for GPUs, in which case they are allowed up to 75.  But I could be wrong...

 

*(16x ones)

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7 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Well as far as I know PCIe slots* are normally limited to 25 W except for GPUs, in which case they are allowed up to 75.  But I could be wrong...

 

*(16x ones)

Yes, that's right.

And 8 pin connectors are allowed a maximum of 150W by the PCIe Standard.

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3 minutes ago, Nineshadow said:

Yes, that's right.

And 8 pin connectors are allowed a maximum of 150W by the PCIe Standard.

Yes.  And, electrically, they can probably handle more than that, and not all cards may or may not follow that, but that is the specification to which things should be adhering.

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56 minutes ago, Prysin said:

which specification?

the ATX spec?

the one that was removed March 2007?

 

Also, NO. it does not draw 500w.

Except in your cherry picked polished benches.

Mate, I really can't be arsed with your post-purchase rationalization. If you're seriously going to suggest the 295X doesn't take a few shortcuts in terms of power delivery, even if they can be compensated with overdesigned power supplies, you seriously lose all credibility you have.

 

And you do realise AMD themselves aknowledge this, right?

 

Quote

 

The PCI-SIG electromechanical specification rates a 16-lane PCI Express slot for up to 75 W. A six-pin auxiliary connector is rated for the same 75 W. And you get 150 W from an eight-pin connector. Two of those eight-pin plugs plus a motherboard slot should add up to 375 W, leaving us about 125 W short of our target.

According to AMD, that’s not a problem. Representatives from the PCI-SIG declined comment, but AMD says:

"The PCI spec was created as a guideline for wide compatibility and thermal density within a two-slot form factor. The 295X2 is about pushing performance, not wide compatibility, and as a result requires carefully-chosen infrastructure by DIYers. This selection criteria for PSUs and cases…will appear on amd.com after launch. When it comes to PSUs, the 295X2 will separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. The best PSUs will use low-gauge wiring and high-output MOSFETs...”

We’ll get into the hardware you need to support a Radeon R9 295X2 shortly. The takeaway for now is that AMD’s new flagship pushes well beyond the specification we’ve long-assumed was a ceiling, but now know doesn’t have to be (so long as you own the right equipment).

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-r9-295x2-review-benchmark-performance,3799-2.html

The bottom-line is, had they included a third 8-pin on there, any power supply with 3 connectors would've done the job. As it was designed per-spec. This is why you have standards and specifications, to create wide compatibility and guarantee of compatibility.

Sure, lets toss out all specs and standards. Let's have manufacturers F.E. decide what voltages to use on USB ports because increasing the voltage means they can slim the wiring (less amps). Or lets have manufacturers chose their own hole lineout on the motherboard backplates. I'm sure nobody will mind.

Seriously, **** your rationlizing and apologetic nonsense, Prysin. Pardon my French.

Pascal Undervolting topic, get more out of your card with less power!

Why high refreshrate monitors look better even without Freesync/G-sync in one image.
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1 minute ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Yes.  And, electrically, they can probably handle more than that, and not all cards may or may not follow that, but that is the specification to which things should be adhering.

Exactly.

It either follows the spec/standard or it doesn't. And in the case of (some?) RX 480-s, it doesn't.

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6 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Mate, I really can't be arsed with your post-purchase rationalization. If you're seriously going to suggest the 295X doesn't take a few shortcuts in terms of power delivery, even if they can be compensated with overdesigned power supplies, you seriously lose all credibility you have.

 

And you do realise AMD themselves aknowledge this, right?

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-r9-295x2-review-benchmark-performance,3799-2.html

The bottom-line is, had they included a third 8-pin on there, any power supply with 3 connectors would've done the job. As it was designed per-spec. This is why you have standards and specifications, to create wide compatibility and guarantee of compatibility.

Sure, lets toss out all specs and standards. Let's have manufacturers F.E. decide what voltages to use on USB ports because increasing the voltage means they can slim the wiring (less amps). Or lets have manufacturers chose their own hole lineout on the motherboard backplates. I'm sure nobody will mind.

Seriously, **** your rationlizing and apologetic nonsense, Prysin. Pardon my French.

oh i never questioned the issue of the PCIe connector. that IS an issue

 

Also thanks for staying civil.

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32 minutes ago, Majestic said:

SNIP

Guess what m8 it does not break any laws at all, so stop that crying about it and stop talking like that.

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4 minutes ago, Prysin said:

oh i never questioned the issue of the PCIe connector. that IS an issue

 

Also thanks for staying civil.

This isn't the first time you apologetically show up to defend the 295X, but fine i'll remove the last scentence if you will edit it out aswell.

However you were accusing me of cherrypicking and using outdated standards as a way to make a point, which makes you apologetic to tossing out specs and standards to rationalize your purchase. Which is very annoying.

Pascal Undervolting topic, get more out of your card with less power!

Why high refreshrate monitors look better even without Freesync/G-sync in one image.
Stutters, framedrops, "lag". How to provide detailed information with your "bottleneck" question, as well as a few solutions.

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So if most 480's are barely staying within the pci-e slot specs at stock speeds, that means that with overclocks the cards will be breaking spec. Makes me curious about the xfx black edition cards, and whether xfx changed the circuitry or not.  AMD_Roberts explaination is horsepoo because he can only vouch for stock clocked 480's, which i guess is how they legally stay within spec, because its the power draw of the shipped product that passes certification. But then that brings into question their overclocking tools. Even though people click a disclaimer that they use the wattman at their own discretion, AMD has shipped the tool with drivers and that means they are encouraging people to overclock.

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1 minute ago, Briggsy said:

So if most 480's are barely staying within the pci-e slot specs at stock speeds, that means that with overclocks the cards will be breaking spec. Makes me curious about the xfx black edition cards, and whether xfx changed the circuitry or not.  AMD_Roberts explaination is a horsepoo because he can only vouch for stock clocked 480's, which i guess is how they legally stay within spec, because its the power draw of the shipped product. But then that brings into question their overclocking tools. Even though people clock a disclaimer that they use the wattman at their own discretion, AMD has shipped the tool with drivers and that means they are encouraging people to overclock.

82W is already over spec, tom's hardware reports over 100W during OC, so they quickly stopped.

Pascal Undervolting topic, get more out of your card with less power!

Why high refreshrate monitors look better even without Freesync/G-sync in one image.
Stutters, framedrops, "lag". How to provide detailed information with your "bottleneck" question, as well as a few solutions.

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1 minute ago, Majestic said:

82W is already over spec, tom's hardware reports over 100W during OC, so they quickly stopped.

Oh i know, I'm just saying even in the best case scenario the AMD PR is trying to paint, they still have their pants down.

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