Windows 10X - Microsoft New OS - Preview

[Sauron]

15 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Basically, if the app requires a special driver to operate, then it can't run on it. Why? Well it needs a Windows 10 X version of the driver to start, but also, because the OS runs Win32 programs under a container (a sandbox if you will).

In case anyone is wondering, this probably means videogames don't work unless gpu manufacturers are all on board with providing good driver support.

 

Can microsoft just stop? Nobody wants their touch screen interface in exchange for actually having the programs you want to run work unambiguously. Why can't they just add better touch screen support to mainline Windows 10? Containers are useful for server applications, for regular use it's just pointless.

[GoodBytes]

7 hours ago, Sauron said:

In case anyone is wondering, this probably means videogames don't work unless gpu manufacturers are all on board with providing good driver support.

Hmm, well I don't see this OS running any games regardless, beside phone level graphics games that can run perfectly well with Intel integrated graphics found on U or even Y series CPUs. Maybe when Nvidia or AMD can make a compelling GPU that doesn't require a fan to cool off, things will change. But so far, I don't think it is a priority for Microsoft as the technology is not anywhere near that today.

 

Quote

Can microsoft just stop? Nobody wants their touch screen interface in exchange for actually having the programs you want to run work unambiguously. Why can't they just add better touch screen support to mainline Windows 10? Containers are useful for server applications, for regular use it's just pointless.

Did you try Windows 10 on a touch screen? Even on a Surface Pro? It is frustrating to use. "Tablet mode" kinda, somewhat, fixes the start menu and app navigation... but that is still iffy, and the the rest remains broken. They could drop Shell32 from 90's and drop other legacy stuff to fix all that, but that is Windows 10X. Touch support is something that the company tried with Windows XP (with Tablet PC edition), 7, 8 and 10, all total flops in that space.

 

As i mentioned containers is not the same container as in docker or VMs. Its loosely used term. But it adds something that Win32 never been able to bring, and that security. Sure it closes off some functionality in system tweaks space, but like you have on phones, including Android (even rooted Android) you don't have the full power that Win32 can provide. But the reality of things is that it affects nearly no one. The percentage of users that uses system tweak utilities are very small. And this is not aimed to replace desktop users who, its user base, is probably a growing user based of power users, developers, gamers, and not checking e-mails and such... those will just use their iPads or phones (already the case, heck there is a growing number of people who don't have a computer that they actually use at their home.

 

So while no one can predict the future, we can only speculates, I see the direction that Microsoft is taking here, and I think they are onto something.

I see that dual screen device will cater a large group of people in the creative space, and note taking space (via pen), and I think it is smart for the company to dive in first, and not miss the boat like they did with smart phones.

[Sauron]

8 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Did you try Windows 10 on a touch screen? Let alone a Surface Pro? It is frustrating to use.

That's what I'm saying - they should fix that rather than come out with entirely new operating systems.

9 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

They tried with Windows XP (with Tablet PC edition), 7, 8 and 10, all total flops in that space.

Yes, because they were half assed attempts that Microsoft didn't feel confident enough to invest into alongside the regular desktop. 8 was a mess because they tried to have one interface for both, all the others were a mess because they didn't dedicate enough resources to making sure the alternative modes worked well.

11 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

But it adds something that Win32 never been able to brought, security.

They could easily fix that with curated repositories rather than locking down the platform and sacrificing functionality. If they want to add containers that's fine, I just don't think they make sense for regular users.

13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

And this is not aimed to replace desktop users who, its user base, is probably a growing user based of power users, developers, gamers, and not checking e-mails and such... those will just use their iPads or phones (already the case, heck there is a growing number of people who don't have a computer that they actually use at their home).

Which begs the question - why this when Android and iOS exist and do it better? The only possible advantage I could see would be the ability to run desktop applications, but nobody will use it like that because it's not suited for it.

[DrMacintosh]

15 hours ago, scuff gang said:

Looks like Mac OS imho

Microsoft has been basing their UI off of macOS and iOS for years now. 

[79wjd]

6 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Microsoft has been basing their UI off of macOS and iOS for years now. 

The lack of basic window snapping begs to differ.

[DrMacintosh]

1 minute ago, 79wjd said:

The lack of basic window snapping begs to differ.

You've completely missed the context in which the term "UI" was used. 

[Letgomyleghoe]

26 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Microsoft has been basing their UI off of macOS and iOS for years now. 

I don’t believe that, if you have some comparisons I might change stance, but I don’t really find that true.

[BachChain]

20 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

It would be to the hardware manufacture to ensure bug free experienced, and not rely on their user to downgrade their drivers, but rather on the manufcature to fix it or pull the driver

Did Microsoft learn nothing from decades of dealing with hardware manufacturers?

[GoodBytes]

58 minutes ago, BachChain said:

Did Microsoft learn nothing from decades of dealing with hardware manufacturers?

Yes, and when they did something about it, which ended up consumers start complaining (but MS didn't back-track because the good outweigh the bad significantly). You can thank Creative Labs for their contribution to Microsoft decision. Interestingly enough, it mostly affected Creative sounds cards, so, yes the company shot themselves in the foot big time.

[weeblord]

15 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Oh boy, I can't wait to have everything fucked up and broken again because of this stuff (remember the transition from Win9x to Win2000 and beyond?). You know, like games filled with DRM drivers that will refuse to function with Win10X and no one will ever update them. Also can't wait for all the performance penalties because of sandbox fuckery. All the tiny gains we got over time with Win10 will be gone with this one. It's gonna be great!

As much as I agree with you, that's pretty pessimistic. I just hope Microsoft can get their OS straight.

[jagdtigger]

9 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

The games I tried report incompatible OpenGL version.

Thats pretty retarded, why use opengl when vulkan already covers almost every device?

[Dabombinable]

9 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Under Windows 10, Microsoft is recently started working on the return of making driver updates optional, with it's own sub section under Windows Updates. It is apparently coming, but the target release date is end of the year. So maybe they'll bring the same feature to Windows 10X

 

I'm talking more along the lines of fixing, replacing or updating from broken OEM drives. My Galaxy Tab Pro S until I discovered the re-install of W10 through the security panel, was stuck with the pre-installed Intel driver.  That driver dated back to 2016 due to that being the tablets year of manufacture, and the HD 515 did see a fair few driver improvements over the intervening 3 years.

WU as a whole however just seems to automatically download drivers that more often then not (with hardware that is semi recent, this includes my GTX 1070) are significantly out of date.

[GoodBytes]

 

Quote

Yes, because they were half assed attempts that Microsoft didn't feel confident enough to invest into alongside the regular desktop. 8 was a mess because they tried to have one interface for both, all the others were a mess because they didn't dedicate enough resources to making sure the alternative modes worked well.

There is so much you can do with an architecture that wasn't designed to do things needed for today. In coding, when you need to do big architectural changes, you just restart... it will be faster to do, cost less, and this time you'll can follow new development models standard in the industry (ahem: documentation). 

 

Quote

They could easily fix that with curated repositories rather than locking down the platform and sacrificing functionality. If they want to add containers that's fine, I just don't think they make sense for regular users.

Containers makes perfect sense for regular users. It doesn't make sense to Power Users like us, and so, we don't have it in Windows 10.

 

Quote

Which begs the question - why this when Android and iOS exist and do it better? The only possible advantage I could see would be the ability to run desktop applications, but nobody will use it like that because it's not suited for it.

Android and iOS are not multi-tasking OSs. While yes they can, it is of limited nature, and a pain for developer to implement as they need to build a service and an app that communicates with it. Heck look at Spotify, just to get music control outside of the app, they need to hack their way as a notification. So yes, there is the Surface Duo, but that is Microsoft modified Android, with Microsoft working with Google to mod the OS to get the APIs as part of the OS to encourage dev support. Even Samsung multi-app support is a Samsung modified custom Android. Yes Android 10 has support now, but still not teh same power as Samsung provides. As for iOS, Apple locks it down, and not availible for anyone else. It is so locked down, that Microsoft could not get Apple to offer any functionality for the "Your Phone" feature, beside picture browsing. You want to see and respond to SMS from your desktop/laptop, you need to buy an Apple computer to enjoy this feature (and only works with iMessage, not third party apps, if I am not mistaken). And in the end, you can't run Win32 programs on Android or iOS.

 

Surface Duo is more a phone than anything, so it makes sense to have Android, work with Google to make the dual screen, and hopefully get dev support, but even if support doesn't come you can at least put 2 apps side-by-side and multi-task to some extent.

 

Surface Neo doesn't have much apps (because UWP is not growing), and betting on PWA to help (which Google also pushes), but its saviors, is Win32 apps, like ChromeOS saving grace is Android app, until official support is coming, or PWA get more popular.

[Salv8 (sam)]

this would be useful for tabets that need to run small win32 apps such as a cataloging system or small database frountend.

only downside is that it would be extremely restricting for laptops.

the entire point of a laptop is to have a portable desktop that can run the same programs and crap as one, this would defeat the purpose since some programs may not work correctly and many don't want to deal with that.

hell businesses might not even use them because as far as i can tell, it has no active directory support which is a must for so many businesses.

and even worse is that it can't run apps on boot, which again causes problems for things like antivirus's that NEED to be run at boot.

i just don't see this taking off, i think many will stick with classic win32.

if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[GoodBytes]

13 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

I'm talking more along the lines of fixing, replacing or updating from broken OEM drives. My Galaxy Tab Pro S until I discovered the re-install of W10 through the security panel, was stuck with the pre-installed Intel driver.  That driver dated back to 2016 due to that being the tablets year of manufacture, and the HD 515 did see a fair few driver improvements over the intervening 3 years.

Well I don't know the process of Windows 10X, However, in the next version of Windows 10, one of the features if "cloud" recovery option, which skips using the device recovery image, and gets the OS from MS servers and re-installs that way. And if you do a drive replacement or the OS is unbootable, then you can recover from USB. Microsoft has this for its Surface line. I can get the image from my device when it was released from Microsoft site. Now, sure, you can point that Samsung might not do that, but this is where you vote with your wallet.  Don't buy a device from a company with poor support.

 

13 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

WU as a whole however just seems to automatically download drivers that more often then not (with hardware that is semi recent, this includes my GTX 1070) are significantly out of date.

You are not going to have a GTX 1070, let alone 1030 in foldable or dual screen device.

While I installed Steam on the VM, I did it more to test borderless, custom framework apps, and for fun more than anything. You'll only play what you could play on such system is that your typical mobile game. I mean, we will see what Intel GPU we end up having, but let's be realistic, its not going to be one that can play Redeem Redemption 2.

 

Now, we can only speak today. I was able to download an app from the web and install it like you can on Windows 10. Skip the whole Microsoft Store, an even the games from Steam downloaded and installed fine, including DirectX runtime library, so it's not locked down. I don't see why there won't be a way, in the future, where you can download and install Windows 10X drivers from the manufacture website.

[Dabombinable]

12 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Well I don't know the process of Windows 10X, However, in the next version of Windows 10, one of the features if "cloud" recovery option, which skips using the device recovery image, and gets the OS from MS servers and re-installs that way. And if you do a drive replacement or the OS is unbootable, then you can recover from USB. Microsoft has this for its Surface line. I can get the image from my device when it was released from Microsoft site. Now, sure, you can point that Samsung might not do that, but this is where you vote with your wallet.  Don't buy a device from a company with poor support.

With my tablet I can restore it if the OS won't boot, it just takes a far bit longer than most devices due to the amount of extra steps added by the locked bootloader (something that is quite typical across the majority of Windows tablet makers)

12 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

You are not going to have a GTX 1070, let alone 1030 in foldable or dual screen device.

While I installed Steam on the VM, I did it more to test borderless, custom framework apps, and for fun more than anything. You'll only play what you could play on such system is that your typical mobile game. I mean, we will see what Intel GPU we end up having, but let's be realistic, its not going to be one that can play Redeem Redemption 2.

That was an example of one of my main gripes with WU. It can find drivers for some hardware who's manufacturers (and therefore support) no longer exist, but something semi recent....nope. Stuck with outdated drivers (a bane of fresh installs with some HW). My tablet can actually run Minecraft now at 60fps and fully HW decode H265 videos (that's Samsung's fault for marking Intel's driver as OEM - W10 leaves those updates to the OEM)

12 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Now, we can only speak today. I was able to download an app from the web and install it like you can on Windows 10. Skip the whole Microsoft Store, an even the games from Steam downloaded and installed fine, including DirectX runtime library, so it's not locked down. I don't see why there won't be a way, in the future, where you can download and install Windows 10X drivers from the manufacture website.

I suppose we just have to wait and see. As long as people have the choice to install the (signed) drivers separately from WU it'll be fine.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

Thats pretty retarded, why use opengl when vulkan already covers almost every device?

Vulkan didn't exists for the games I tried (nor they would need it). My system is quiet limited (Core i7 930, can't OC due to bad luck crappy chip, 6GB of RAM, GeForce 680, 256GB SSD) Needs an upgrade, desperately. System is 10 years old.

 

So considering that I am running through a VM, my resources are even more limited. If you check the video posted, the OS runs about twice as fast than on my PC, and as it looks like he was using a touch screen device... it is probably a U series Intel Core i5 or i7 CPUs which clearly massacre mine. No it isn't Windows 10X being intensive, I have the same problem with the latest Ubuntu as well. So I didn't feel like downloading my DirectX games (which are AAA) for a maybe. And the maybe is more the VM not supporting GPU acceleration (or at least with my hardware), then actually the OS.

[GoodBytes]

56 minutes ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

this would be useful for tabets that need to run small win32 apps such as a cataloging system or small database frountend.

Yes, and more than that. You can include apps like music streaming apps, image/graphics editors, video players, chat apps, and more.

 

56 minutes ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

only downside is that it would be extremely restricting for laptops.

It's not for traditional laptops.

 

56 minutes ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

the entire point of a laptop is to have a portable desktop that can run the same programs and crap as one, this would defeat the purpose since some programs may not work correctly and many don't want to deal with that.

True, but it's not an issue for Apple with its iPad, even on day 1 when it had no apps (as in not even the SDK to make apps).

 

56 minutes ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

hell businesses might not even use them because as far as i can tell, it has no active directory support which is a must for so many businesses.

Let me check...I can link my account with a corporate account, like I can under Windows 10. Having also the experience with Windows 10 Mobile, this would push out corporate policies to the device.

 

56 minutes ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

and even worse is that it can't run apps on boot,

Well no... the anti-virus is a service, like on your phone. If it is a service, it can run at startup. All the anti-virus maker needs to do is the GUI part as a UWP app instead of a Win32  (the GUI communicates with the service, if you look now under Windows 10, you'll see under services that, well you have your anti-virus as one, you do a virus scan, kill the GUI, and teh scan will still resume). Same principal for Android and iOS anti-virus. They don't have startup apps, but they do have support for services.

 

56 minutes ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

which again causes problems for things like antivirus's that NEED to be run at boot.

i just don't see this taking off, i think many will stick with classic win32.

if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It is broken, and needs fixing. 

The OS is equipped with Widows Defender

[GoodBytes]

Just wanted to share this:

Someone on Twitter got Windows 10X installed on the Surface Go (Pentium Gold CPU, 4-8GB of RAM, so pretty shit specs), it is runs so smooth, and so responsive!

I can't imagine how it will run on much faster hardware

 

[vorticalbox]

On 2/12/2020 at 4:56 AM, williamcll said:

Could it be the return of windows mobile? I certainly hope so, I liked my HTC HD2

I love my lumia 850, app support was its only down side. 

[RejZoR]

Wanted to try it and it's bitching that I don't have latest enough Windows... Sigh. I ain't gonna install some weird ass preview to test a preview in a VM. What's the frigging point of a VM then!?

[rcmaehl]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:27 PM, GoodBytes said:

This also means that system tweak utilities won't run or work either. This also includes Win32 application sending Mouse/Keyboard Hook events. So no AutoHotKey.

Just use powershell. 

[rcmaehl]

4 Versions of Windows later, Microsoft finally brings back Quick Launch

 

[dalekphalm]

13 minutes ago, rcmaehl said:

4 Versions of Windows later, Microsoft finally brings back Quick Launch

 

With pinning, Quick Launch is kind of pointless though.

[GoodBytes]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Wanted to try it and it's bitching that I don't have latest enough Windows... Sigh. I ain't gonna install some weird ass preview to test a preview in a VM. What's the frigging point of a VM then!?

You need Windows 10 20H1, So you need to be in the Windows Insider program, or wait until April (expected time, not official could be sooner or later).