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Real-time raytracing in Unreal Engine and Vulkan on a PowerVR GPU

wo0t
By wo0t
in General Discussion
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Years before Nvidia IMG showed the worlds first dedicated raytracing GPU and even fully raytraced realtime demos (not only hybrid rendering demos like Nvidia). A 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same raytracing performance than the 2W PowerVR GPU in 28nm. LTT should try to get a PowerVR GPU and run some raytracing benchmarks on it.

 

Real-time raytracing in Unreal Engine and Vulkan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcf35d3z890&list=PLnOXj03cuJjmRN_Y8aN0vUH_jNbjyDXjB&index=1
https://www.imgtec.com/blog/video-ray-tracing-powervr-wizard/

 

"The initial stages involved adapting the engine’s render pass mechanism to perform a ray tracing scene build operation. The Vulkan ray tracing extension API makes this very easy, as the code flow required is very similar to an existing Vulkan raster render pass, requiring only wrapping the render sequence in with begin/end commands, and the use of a different Vulkan pipeline object with vertex and ray shaders instead of the regular raster shaders. We were able to reuse the existing “static mesh” geometry draw loop from the engine code, adapting it only to remove the frustum culling visibility checks, as we desired all geometry to be rendered into the ray tracing scene hierarchy."
https://www.imgtec.com/blog/unreal-engine-and-the-ray-tracing-revelation/

 

PowerVR Wizard GPUs running the Apartment demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxE2SYDHFtQ

 

More than 5x faster than a 980 Ti in Blender:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND96G9UZxxA&t=2m

 

A 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same raytracing performance:
https://wccftech.com/first-nvidia-rtx-2080-ti-2080-dxr-raytracing-benchmark/

 

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Very interesting. I didn't know Imagination had ray tracing GPUs. I thought they just did Apple's work. It's also interesting to see most employees went to AMD after Apple stopped using them and they got bought out. The tech they showed was 2 years old so if AMD manages to integrate a PowerVR chip onboard like a VID and use it in tandem with the normal GPU core. Then we could expect to see similar Ray Tracing results for 1/5th the price and half the power draw. 7nm chip with co processor of ray tracing would be killer considering the cost of slapping RT cores, Tensor cores, and a GPU on a package. I wanna see that AMD

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Just keeping this here as a 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Nice to see Imagination still having something that they are doing and that they haven't stopped existing after Apple decided to break up with them. Lol

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The whole catch is that the PowerVR GR6500 has a dedicated ray tracing unit (from https://www.anandtech.com/show/7870/imagination-announces-powervr-wizard-gpu-family-rogue-learns-ray-tracing)

1_PowerVR%20GR6500%20GPU%20-%20PowerVR%2

 

So any comparisons to anything other than a GeForce RTX is comparing software rendering to hardware rendering. In fact, the video that OP posted saying that the GR6500 is five times more powerful than the GTX 980 Ti, the presenter at about 2:55 says "That's the power of having dedicated fixed function hardware instead of using GPU compute."

 

On that note, I find it hard to believe that a GPU with likely orders of magnitude less transistors can do ray tracing 100 times faster than an RTX 2080 Ti. And no where in the WFFCTech article compares NVIDIA's hardware to PowerVR's. If you're going "NVIDIA needs to have 100x more power for ray tracing that this mobile GPU can do" without any other context, you may as well tell me NVIDIA needs 100 times more power to generate a 3D image period when Intel's IGPUs have no problem doing it.

 

tl;dr, ambiguous contexts leading to misleading conclusions.

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Is performance really the same though? I'm still skeptical since obviously 100x less power for same performance seems a bit exaggerated. I wouldn't be too surprised if it's a lot more efficient due to being built specifically for ray tracing but 100x is a lot

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I hope AMD will work together with IMG to adapt ray tracing in gaming and pro GPU's. Wasting sacks filled with money just for the freakin' 2080Ti is too much lmfao.

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  • Author
53 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

On that note, I find it hard to believe that a GPU with likely orders of magnitude less transistors can do ray tracing 100 times faster than an RTX 2080 Ti. And no where in the WFFCTech article compares NVIDIA's hardware to PowerVR's. If you're going "NVIDIA needs to have 100x more power for ray tracing that this mobile GPU can do" without any other context, you may as well tell me NVIDIA needs 100 times more power to generate a 3D image period when Intel's IGPUs have no problem doing it.

 

tl;dr, ambiguous contexts leading to misleading conclusions.

 

You are misleading! I never wrote that it "can do ray tracing 100 times faster than an RTX 2080 Ti".
I wrote:
"A 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same raytracing performance than the 2W PowerVR GPU in 28nm."

 

The conclusions are not misleading. The video shows that thier 2W dedicated RT GPU is more than 5 times faster in ray tracing than a 980Ti.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND96G9UZxxA&t=2m

 

In the wccftech article you can see that the 260W 2080 Ti is 6 times faster in ray tracing than the 980 Ti.
https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/NVIDIA-DirectX-Simple-Ray-tracing-Benchmark-RTX-2080-Ti-RTX-2080.jpg

 

So the 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same raytracing performance. The PowerVR GPU and the 2080 Ti both are dedicated RT. The 980 Ti only serves as an aid to compare the ray tracing performance of both GPUs. Back in 2016 there was no 2080 Ti available. I hope this explanation was comprehensible for you.
By the way, also in my opinion it is astonishing that Nvidia can't do better although they had at least 2 years more time, a much higher budget and a much better 12nm process.

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Soooo ASIC based raytracing or pathtracing is the way forward? No wonder both AMD and Nvidia are seemingly splitting their CPU paths

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1 minute ago, wo0t said:

-Snip-

If you're comparing the TDP values, that's a meaningless figure anyway and the way you're writing it makes it sound like all of that power is being used for RT when it's not. The RTX cards have a lot more other pieces inside of their GPU. It's very likely the CUDA cores and the infrastructure to support them take up most of that power because fixed function hardware tends to be more power efficient than general purpose hardware given the same task.

 

Also still, you're comparing a Blender benchmark to a DX12 demo. This is effectively an apples to oranges comparison and you cannot use this data to draw conclusions about how the RTX cards perform against the GR6500 unless you can find the RTX cards running the exact same benchmark.

 

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

Soooo ASIC based raytracing or pathtracing is the way forward? No wonder both AMD and Nvidia are seemingly splitting their CPU paths

We may be at a point due to Moore's Law running out that fixed function hardware is the only way we can achieve performance for computationally heavy problems.

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To add about comparing TDP values, two vastly different markets are being compared. When you build something for mobile, you are specifically engineering the silicon to be efficient. However, those same engineering techniques may not scale up as well for desktop applications. That or when you're designing something for the desktop environment, efficiency be damned, just squeeze as much performance out of that thing because having the hardware now is better.

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14 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Soooo ASIC based raytracing or pathtracing is the way forward? No wonder both AMD and Nvidia are seemingly splitting their CPU paths

Actually ARM and ASICs are going to get A LOT more popular. There are a lot of super computers based on ARM already and ASICs used to be used highly in military applications but mining has sparked development of companies that now specialize in it. I have a feeling the one cpu does it all thing is going to be fading out 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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40 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

If you're comparing the TDP values, that's a meaningless figure anyway and the way you're writing it makes it sound like all of that power is being used for RT when it's not. The RTX cards have a lot more other pieces inside of their GPU. It's very likely the CUDA cores and the infrastructure to support them take up most of that power because fixed function hardware tends to be more power efficient than general purpose hardware given the same task.

 

Also still, you're comparing a Blender benchmark to a DX12 demo. This is effectively an apples to oranges comparison and you cannot use this data to draw conclusions about how the RTX cards perform against the GR6500 unless you can find the RTX cards running the exact same benchmark.

 

TDP values are not meaningless and I'm not making it sound like all power is being used for RT. The PowerVR GPU also has a lot more other pieces inside that use power. Just look at the picture you posted. But both GPUs PowerVR GR6500 and 2080 Ti are dedicated RT.

 

I know that the benchmarks are different, but because in both benchmarks 980 Ti were used and because of Nvidias claim that Turing is 6 times faster in ray tracing than Pascal we can use this data to compare the ray tracing performance. That Nvidia understates the ray tracing performance of its GPU and that in Blender the 2080 Ti is going to be more than 6x faster is highly unlikely. But if you don't believe Nvidia and those benchmarks, you have to wait till Blender is making use of the RT cores of the 2080 Ti.

 

Quote

To add about comparing TDP values, two vastly different markets are being compared. When you build something for mobile, you are specifically engineering the silicon to be efficient. However, those same engineering techniques may not scale up as well for desktop applications. That or when you're designing something for the desktop environment, efficiency be damned, just squeeze as much performance out of that thing because having the hardware now is better. 

 

That does not change the fact that a 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same ray tracing performance than the 2W PowerVR GPU in 28nm.

With at least 2 years more development time, a much higher budget, a much better 12nm process, 260W of power usage and a much bigger chip size (754mm²) I would expect at least 10x more ray tracing performance. It is the biggest gaming GPU chip ever made. Only the Titan V chip is bigger.

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48 minutes ago, wo0t said:

-snip-

It wouldn't matter if we had an updated benchmark unless all the benchmark was doing was adding support for the GPU. If the benchmark changed in the slightest, that invalidates the previous data for comparison.

 

Plus I don't like the comparison being made here anyway because there are too many variables. It's a different application, likely using different API. And I don't know if Imagination used something custom to make their numbers look good or not.

 

In all, there's not enough data to accurately asses what's being claimed here. And it doesn't make logical sense that "X performs n times better than Y in A application: Z performs m times better better than Y in B application; therefore Z performs m * n better than X" or something

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Wow, I didn't know they were doing this 2 years ago already. I'm curious to see if this will impact some spinoffs or something. If some standard RT benchmarks could be run on it, results might be a nice comparison. I'm not sure about anything not raytracing though.

 

Comparing this to a 980 Ti or even a 1080 Ti i is an unfair comparison though. Their point wasn't to say "look we're so good our mobile GPU is beating a full blown desktop GPU", but to emphasize the power of dedicated hardware, which they say already in their own video. This also automatically "invalidates" any comparisons with anything below 20XX cards, as the RTX cards are the only equivalents. 

 

4 hours ago, wo0t said:

A 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same raytracing performance:

You cannot say a 200 W chip is automatically 100 times faster than a 2 W chip. The AnandTech article mentions 0.3 giga rays per second for the GR6500, compared to the 2080 Ti's 10 giga rays per second. Also keep in mind that not the whole die is RT cores, so also not the whole 200 W and that an RTX card will be a lot more powerful than a mobile GPU without any raytracing.

I think it's the fact that they both use separate, dedicated hardware for the raytracing part, is what puts them in similare leagues of performance on that front. Feed that PowerVR chip a modern AAA title and it'll probably melt in place.

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I kept trying to tell people Nvidia is making a fool of them by acting like their ray tracing is something new and something so awesome when in reality it's old tech performing as well on a mobile GPU. Of course the people in the Nvidia Reddit weren't actually listening and now they are complaining because they have no ray tracing and no decent performance for the price they paid.

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1 hour ago, asus killer said:

Hard to believe.

Why? Think of an ASIC. A GPU mining bitcoins will use ~300W and can mine at 100MH/s. An ASIC chip can use 6W and mine 200GH/s. If you scale it up to something like an antminer at 1200W for 15TH/s compared to 150,000 GPUs using a small neighborhoods power usage

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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You can raytrace on just about anything, I thought that was common knowledge. As for the article in question goes,  not too sure why it is being made out to be a big thing.   There is a huge difference between AMD/NVidia GPU's (because RT alone is not a defining measure) and smaller mobile GPU's. It's like comparing a truck to Ferrari saying they both have 550HP.  You are totally ignoring the the trailers and gearing etc.

 

Come back to me when the Imagination GPU can run any AAA title above 30fps and manages RT.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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TDP is far from being based just on raytracing workload.

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17 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Very interesting. I didn't know Imagination had ray tracing GPUs. I thought they just did Apple's work. It's also interesting to see most employees went to AMD after Apple stopped using them and they got bought out. The tech they showed was 2 years old so if AMD manages to integrate a PowerVR chip onboard like a VID and use it in tandem with the normal GPU core. Then we could expect to see similar Ray Tracing results for 1/5th the price and half the power draw. 7nm chip with co processor of ray tracing would be killer considering the cost of slapping RT cores, Tensor cores, and a GPU on a package. I wanna see that AMD

Well well wouldnt that be so nice sir? when the planets align everything seems just right.

 

For some reason i feel like AMD Radeon is not going to make any rational decisions any time soon. Like for example infinity fabric for Zen that was the best silicon developer move i have ever seen, in my book it dwarfs the  Athlon64 era when AMD was slightly better than intel for a short time.

As long as there is still process node improvements, infinity fabric will scale adding more cores at good yields/prices.

I just wish MCM GPU's would be possible, i do not know if GPU's wafer have yields problems for big chips as much as CPU's ones, on GPU wafers at least they can disable defective shader cores/units and sell it as lower model.

 

Ideally i would hope AMD pulls some hat trick for GPU's like infinity fabric MCM gpu's with HBM + PowerVR raytracing on 7nm, something like dual 250mm2 with HBM on the chip, for some power efficient small cards that pack a punch, im sick of those triple slot/triple fan, 30cm, 300Watt monster cards hanging on the PCIE slot, where the GDDR VRAM alone is blowing 50Watt+ of heat on to the board.

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On 10/6/2018 at 12:49 PM, wo0t said:

 

TDP values are not meaningless and I'm not making it sound like all power is being used for RT. The PowerVR GPU also has a lot more other pieces inside that use power. Just look at the picture you posted. But both GPUs PowerVR GR6500 and 2080 Ti are dedicated RT.

 

I know that the benchmarks are different, but because in both benchmarks 980 Ti were used and because of Nvidias claim that Turing is 6 times faster in ray tracing than Pascal we can use this data to compare the ray tracing performance. That Nvidia understates the ray tracing performance of its GPU and that in Blender the 2080 Ti is going to be more than 6x faster is highly unlikely. But if you don't believe Nvidia and those benchmarks, you have to wait till Blender is making use of the RT cores of the 2080 Ti.

 

 

That does not change the fact that a 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same ray tracing performance than the 2W PowerVR GPU in 28nm.

With at least 2 years more development time, a much higher budget, a much better 12nm process, 260W of power usage and a much bigger chip size (754mm²) I would expect at least 10x more ray tracing performance. It is the biggest gaming GPU chip ever made. Only the Titan V chip is bigger.

Same performance is not something you can assume based on the data you're given. The blender benchmark is likely something that heavily hits ray tracing. As well, it's possible the 980 ti isn't well optimized for it, idk. But the main point is it's a ray tracing benchmark, not a graphics benchmark.

 

On the other hand, the Nvidia benchmark you showed is a graphics benchmark that hits things besides ray tracing. Nvidia themselves actually say this (I pulled this from Anandtech's review of the 2080/2080ti)

Quote

NVIDIA is stating that the fastest GeForce RTX part can cast 10 Billion (Giga) rays per second, which compared to the unaccelerated Pascal is a 25x improvement in ray tracing performance.

25x. Not 6x. Same performance is most likely not true; instead we're probably looking at a couple of times more at least.

 

To add to that, 100x less power doesn't always mean that much. Lowering clock speeds means lowering voltage which has an exponential effect on power consumption. For example, Intel has 5w Y series CPUs and 95w desktop CPUs... and the desktop CPUs are a whole lot less than 20 times faster! Intel Y series CPUs are capable of 250-300 in cinebench... 5 times that is performance you could see in 140w CPUs.

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@M.Yurizaki
It does not invalidate the previous data because Nvidia itself says that Turing is only 6x times faster than Pascal. That Nvidia understates the ray tracing performance of its GPU and that in Blender the 2080 Ti is going to be more than 6x faster is highly unlikely. Also there are not too many variables, your suspicion is unfounded and there is enough data to asses the ray tracing performance. If you have other ray tracing benchmarks let us see them, otherwise you are only guessing. You don't understand that dedicated hardware can be much more effective than GPGPU. Mining was already mentioned. Another example is dedicated video decoding and encoding (for example Quick Sync in Intel CPUs).

 

Pure ray tracing makes use of both: Cuda cores and RT cores. RT cores alone are useless. The RT cores only speed up a part of the ray tracing rendering pipeline that is too thorny for the CPU or shader programs.
"RT Cores accelerate Bounding Volume Hierarchy (BVH) traversal and ray/triangle intersection testing (ray casting) functions."
 

Also power gating is done so that used parts of a chip can clock higher utilizing the TDP limit. That means that the Turing chip does not power parts not needed for the task so used parts can be clocked higher utilizing the TDP limit. So your assumption is wrong for 2 reasons.


@tikker
I'm not saying "a 200 W chip is automatically 100 times faster than a 2 W chip"!

I wrote:
"A 2080 Ti needs ~100x more power for the same raytracing performance"
and
"With at least 2 years more development time, a much higher budget, a much better 12nm process, 260W of power usage and a much bigger chip size (754mm²) I would expect at least 10x more ray tracing performance. It is the biggest gaming GPU chip ever made. Only the Titan V chip is bigger."

 

Of course, a 200 W chip would not scale perfectly but it is astonishing that Nvidia needs 100x times more power for only the same ray tracing performance. Nvidia claims Turing is only 6x faster at ray tracing than Pascal. From dedicated hardware we should expect much more.

As you can see in the benchmark Nvidias "10 jija rays" for Turing and "1.21 jija
rays" for Pascal are pure marketing BS. In reality it is only 426 million rays/s and 112 million rays/s.
More than 5x faster than the 980 Ti would be ~355 million rays/s for the PowerVR GR6500 which is much closer to IMGs number.
 

Real 10 giga rays/s would mean 33x more rays than the PowerVR GR6500 and ~80 rays per pixel on 1080p and 60fps. In that case Nvidia would not need any denoising and could show use real-time ray tracing demos instead of hybrid rendering. But even at hybrid rendering Nvidia needs denoising and nevertheless "RT ON" causes huge fps drops.

 

@mr moose

Your car comparison shows that you don't understand the topic.


@DocSwag

The topic is ray tracing performance. Blender is heavily optimized for CUDA i.e. the 980 Ti. A ray tracing benchmark is also a graphics benchmark. If you have other ray tracing benchmarks let us see them, otherwise you are only guessing.


The benchmark in the wccftech article is a DX12 ray tracing benchmark from Microsoft and was released weeks after the Anandtech review.

 

100x less power for the same performance means a lot. It means that the PowerVR GPU architecture has much more potential for even more ray tracing performance. For example by also using the 12nm process and/or increasing chip size and/or doubling or tripling the clock speed and/or by putting more chips on a single board. The 260W 754mm² Turing chip on the other hand is already maxed out and Nvidia has still a lot of work to do to improve its RT performance. Dedicated RT hardware can be much more effective.

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12 hours ago, wo0t said:

The topic is ray tracing performance. Blender is heavily optimized for CUDA i.e. the 980 Ti. A ray tracing benchmark is also a graphics benchmark. If you have other ray tracing benchmarks let us see them, otherwise you are only guessing.

CUDA isn't ray tracing. Ray tracing does different math than rasterization. The point is there's no way you CAN directly compare this ray tracing hardware to rtx cards because there's no common benchmark atm.

12 hours ago, wo0t said:

The benchmark in the wccftech article is a DX12 ray tracing benchmark from Microsoft and was released weeks after the Anandtech review.

Yeah but there's obviously rasterization happening along with ray tracing. It's more representative of what you would see performance wise if you played a ray traced game. The blender demo, meanwhile, is MUCH MUCH more ray tracing focused.

 

The timing of the article doesn't matter, that's just what Nvidia said.

12 hours ago, wo0t said:

100x less power for the same performance means a lot. It means that the PowerVR GPU architecture has much more potential for even more ray tracing performance. For example by also using the 12nm process and/or increasing chip size and/or doubling or tripling the clock speed and/or by putting more chips on a single board. The 260W 754mm² Turing chip on the other hand is already maxed out and Nvidia has still a lot of work to do to improve its RT performance. Dedicated RT hardware can be much more effective.

It definitely means something but the thing is that, as I mentioned above, you DON'T have something to directly compare through so you can't claim same performance. Also, this chip is mainly focused on ray tracing. Nvidia's GPU is made for ray tracing and a whole lot of other stuff, with only a very small section of the die (compared to the rest of the die) being used for RT hardware.

 

And to add to that, let me quote something @M.Yurizaki said

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Also if the Blender test was pure ray tracing, it would only hit the RT cores in the RTX cards and not the CUDA ones, assuming that's how the pipeline works. Therefore the GPU would be way under its TDP.

 

12 hours ago, wo0t said:

If you have other ray tracing benchmarks let us see them, otherwise you are only guessing.

And you are too! These are SEPARATE benchmarks. One is very much a ray tracing benchmark. The other is a mixture. You CAN'T directly compare them.

 

What you're doing is like testing memory latency between platform A and platform B, finding B is 2x slower, then testing SuperPI (a benchmark that loves memory bandwidth and latency) on platform B and platform C, finding C is 2x faster, and saying that platform A and platform C are equal memory latency wise. But one of these is a PURE memory latency benchmark, whereas the other is affected by many other things. You can't use one to extrapolate the other.

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23 hours ago, wo0t said:

It does not invalidate the previous data because Nvidia itself says that Turing is only 6x times faster than Pascal.

And NVIDIA says, in the very white paper you linked, that Turing in certain ray tracing tasks can be 10+ times faster than Pascal (this is on page 31, or 37 of the actual PDF)

Quote

Turing can deliver far more Giga Rays/Sec than Pascal on different workloads, as shown in Figure 21. Pascal is spending approximately 1.1 Giga Rays/Sec, or 10 TFLOPS / Giga Ray to do ray tracing in software, whereas Turing can do 10+ Giga Rays/Sec using RT Cores, and run ray tracing 10 times faster

 

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That Nvidia understates the ray tracing performance of its GPU and that in Blender the 2080 Ti is going to be more than 6x faster is highly unlikely.

Okay, so where are the test results for this Blender test?

 

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Also there are not too many variables, your suspicion is unfounded and there is enough data to asses the ray tracing performance. 

There is not enough data to assess a direct comparison. An indirect comparison sure, but that's weak evidence. But if you want to make a direct comparison, you need to have the two things you're comparing doing the same exact thing. This is why, for example, Futuremark doesn't to do any special code paths for their benchmarks depending on what hardware their application is running since this got them into a lot of trouble before: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/07/atom-nano-review/6/

 

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If you have other ray tracing benchmarks let us see them, otherwise you are only guessing.

And so are you, by using an indirect comparison. The guess has more weight to it, but it's not sufficient for a direct comparison.

 

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You don't understand that dedicated hardware can be much more effective than GPGPU. Mining was already mentioned. Another example is dedicated video decoding and encoding (for example Quick Sync in Intel CPUs).

Hum...

 

On 10/6/2018 at 11:06 AM, M.Yurizaki said:

The whole catch is that the PowerVR GR6500 has a dedicated ray tracing unit (from https://www.anandtech.com/show/7870/imagination-announces-powervr-wizard-gpu-family-rogue-learns-ray-tracing)

 

 

So any comparisons to anything other than a GeForce RTX is comparing software rendering to hardware rendering. In fact, the video that OP posted saying that the GR6500 is five times more powerful than the GTX 980 Ti, the presenter at about 2:55 says "That's the power of having dedicated fixed function hardware instead of using GPU compute."

 

On 10/6/2018 at 12:08 PM, M.Yurizaki said:

We may be at a point due to Moore's Law running out that fixed function hardware is the only way we can achieve performance for computationally heavy problems.

 

I guess I don't understand the power of fixed function hardware? ?

 

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Pure ray tracing makes use of both: Cuda cores and RT cores. RT cores alone are useless. The RT cores only speed up a part of the ray tracing rendering pipeline that is too thorny for the CPU or shader programs.
"RT Cores accelerate Bounding Volume Hierarchy (BVH) traversal and ray/triangle intersection testing (ray casting) functions."
 

The GR5600 is doing the same thing. All the ray tracing unit in either GPU is doing is determining how the rays of light interact with the environment to determine the proper lighting, letting the shader cores do the lighting calculation itself. From the AnandTech article:

Quote

All ray tracing work takes place in the RTU, leaving the USC Array to its traditional rasterization work and ultimately consuming the output of the RTU for final pixel resolution. This means that the addition of ray tracing hardware doesn’t impact theoretical rasterization performance, however in the real world it’s reasonable to expect that there will be a performance tradeoff from the RTU consuming memory bandwidth.

I mean, this is pretty damning evidence Imagination used the same overarching technique NVIDIA is doing:

09_Ray%20tracing%20in%20games_PowerVR%20

 

Plus the hardware that Imagination used was from another company, Caustic Graphics. And what they did was create a chip, whose only job was create coherent data structures for ray casting based algorithms (like ray tracing). I don't know what Caustic Graphics used, but what NVIDIA is doing is effectively the same thing.

 

See: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/161074-the-future-of-ray-tracing-reviewed-caustics-r2500-accelerator-finally-moves-us-towards-real-time-ray-tracing (note that the chip says "Imagination" on it)

 

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Also power gating is done so that used parts of a chip can clock higher utilizing the TDP limit. That means that the Turing chip does not power parts not needed for the task so used parts can be clocked higher utilizing the TDP limit. So your assumption is wrong for 2 reasons.

Not only do GPUs don't really benefit from this approach, there's nothing in any documentation that would suggest this. Otherwise why isn't my GTX 1080 running at like 3GHz when running Half-Life since it's laughably easy for it to do so on one SM? It's only going up to the speed that I've seen it do in any other scenario.

 

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"With at least 2 years more development time, a much higher budget, a much better 12nm process, 260W of power usage and a much bigger chip size (754mm²) I would expect at least 10x more ray tracing performance. It is the biggest gaming GPU chip ever made. Only the Titan V chip is bigger."

Using the AnandTech article, we can infer Turing has 33 times more performance (emphasis mine):

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For GR6500 this means that at Imagination’s reference clockspeed of 600MHz it will be able to deliver up to 300 million rays per second, 24 billion node tests per second, and 100 million dynamic triangles per second.

 

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Of course, a 200 W chip would not scale perfectly but it is astonishing that Nvidia needs 100x times more power for only the same ray tracing performance. Nvidia claims Turing is only 6x faster at ray tracing than Pascal. From dedicated hardware we should expect much more.

As you can see in the benchmark Nvidias "10 jija rays" for Turing and "1.21 jija
rays" for Pascal are pure marketing BS. In reality it is only 426 million rays/s and 112 million rays/s.
More than 5x faster than the 980 Ti would be ~355 million rays/s for the PowerVR GR6500 which is much closer to IMGs number.

And yet nobody ran the GR5600 against the DX12 RT benchmark. The performance of hardware still highly depends on the software its running. What if the GR5600 can only do 40 million rays per second when running this benchmark? And when can we see the RTX 2080 Ti running the same exact Blender benchmark so we can compare results?

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Real 10 giga rays/s would mean 33x more rays than the PowerVR GR6500 and ~80 rays per pixel on 1080p and 60fps. In that case Nvidia would not need any denoising and could show use real-time ray tracing demos instead of hybrid rendering. But even at hybrid rendering Nvidia needs denoising and nevertheless "RT ON" causes huge fps drops.

"Rays per second" is really an ambiguous term because it can mean one of two things:

  • How many paths the ray from the view port were calculated
  • How many rays in total, including rays bounced off objects, were calculated

In any case from https://computergraphics.stackexchange.com/questions/2377/how-does-everyone-count-rays-per-second, Karl Schmidt, who works at Auto Desk, gave this on the metric:

Quote

I've seen both, unfortunately. I'm not fond of rays per second as meaning exclusively primary rays and I'd suggest "paths per second" or better yet "samples per second" instead. "Complete ray" is not a common term: a ray is a (potentially unbounded) line segment and a sequence of rays is a path.

 

Rays per second in your second sense of total ray casts is not well-specified for a path tracer: do shadow rays count, for instance? It's a useful metric for evaluating an acceleration structure or intersection testing framework (i.e. Embree or OptiX) but I'd avoid it for a renderer.

 

Finally, be aware that samples per second still isn't a great metric of actual performance since sample quality will vary wildly depending on implementation details. It's probably the best thing you can do starting out though, as the better solutions involve fairly complex variance estimates.

Considering that the second way of saying what a "ray" is would give higher numbers, it's very possible that this is the metric being used in marketing materials.

 

Some other evidence to support that "rays per second" means all rays cast is supported by: https://coronarenderer.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/5000501981-rays-per-second-too-low

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Rays per second is the basic measure of the renderer's raw, brute force performance. It is the number of all rays traced per second in the renderer.

 

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@DocSwag

The topic is ray tracing performance. Blender is heavily optimized for CUDA i.e. the 980 Ti. A ray tracing benchmark is also a graphics benchmark. If you have other ray tracing benchmarks let us see them, otherwise you are only guessing.

Then the Blender benchmark is basically running a software rendering mode. Even if CUDA is capable of hitting the RT cores now, the same Blender demo used in the demonstrations likely wouldn't work because the version used wouldn't know about ray tracing and for all the drivers know, it's running a generic CUDA workload. Also in the video, the presenter said how many "passes" were done. "Passes" have no meaning to how many actual rays per second were being evaluated.

 

Ultimately conversations on the internet about ray tracing performance leads me to believe that it's highly dependent on several factors. Which I guess is also an "well duh" sort of conclusion. Sony a long time ago claimed the original PlayStation was capable of 1 million triangles per second... if the graphics hardware was only rendering triangles and nothing else. Once you included basic shading, that dropped down to 100,000 triangles per second.

 

Basically, unless you run the hardware you want to compare on the same software, you can't really make a direct comparison.

 

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