Updated: Intel Removes Intel Power Gadget Utility Download Amidst MacBook Pro Controversy

[ARikozuM]

Why is Apple messing around with BMW's i9?

[Amazonsucks]

15 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

Tin foil hat on: Apple begged Intel to rig the power gadget for Mac so that people like Linus and Dave2D will stop complaining about the i9 MBP's lack of capability to maintain 2.90 GHz. 

How is that tin foil hat? Its the most logical conclusion.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

You mean things like lie about the actual TDP of the Chip?
Or violate the TDP and overshoot???

 

And don't offer hard TDP Limits that would have prevented this mess??

...and that seems to be the biggest problem here and that its not possible for the manufacturer of the Device to define Power Limits and implement it so that they can make their cooling for the chip.

To be fair if some review guy Dave can test the chip I'm sure Apple could have. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ARikozuM said:

Why is Apple messing around with BMW's i9?

It's an iCar. They are having trouble due to lack of windows. 

[abazigal]

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Ähm, no. 

The Problem here is you pay more to get less performance. That is the point and the reason why people are angry.

And if you don't flame the companies responsible for this shit, nothing will change and it will only get worse.

So you have to tell those guys that you don't like that.

 

 

Sadly I doubt that there will be a "fixed version"...

At best, we will probably see a firmware update which cranks up the fan speeds. 

 

In the long run, this will just accelerate Apple's migration to ARM Macs, since it's clear that Intel is no longer able to meet their needs with regards to processors that don't run hot under load. 

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

1 hour ago, ARikozuM said:

Why is Apple messing around with BMW's i9?

So BMW can make a hassle free dealer network based on Apple's industry leading philosophy on who can repair units and order replacement parts, while lynching and sticking a fork up the arse of those who don't comply. 

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, abazigal said:

At best, we will probably see a firmware update which cranks up the fan speeds. 

Yes, that would be a good idea...

Or give the User the possibility to change between a silent and performance setting.

 

1 minute ago, abazigal said:

In the long run, this will just accelerate Apple's migration to ARM Macs, since it's clear that Intel is no longer able to meet their needs with regards to processors that don't run hot under load. 

There is another option.

They can do semi-custom Chips from another company.

 

[Dylanc1500]

17 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, that would be a good idea...

Or give the User the possibility to change between a silent and performance setting.

 

There is another option.

They can do semi-custom Chips from another company.

 

Absolutely, I'm sure VIA would love to have a contract as large as apple.

[lewdicrous]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

Members aren't really supposed to post comments like that, supposed to come from moderators. Generally quotes from sources should be put in to the quote formatting that the editor has.

 

Other than that it meets the key requirements, source + quote from source + personal input.

Sorry

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, lewdicrous said:

Sorry

It's fine, some people could just find it rude or annoying if multiple people/the first few comments in a thread is just quotes of the posting guidelines.

[captain_to_fire]

3 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

It's an iCar. They are having trouble due to lack of windows. 

If it costs $50K but is still using manual transmission then no thank you

[mark_cameron]

20 hours ago, Giiman95 said:

Source Article: https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/21/intel-power-gadget-mac-removed/

 

• “The download link for the Intel Power Gadget, which reports info like Mac CPU temperature and current clock speed, has been conspicuously removed from the Intel website today. There’s no explanation on the page as to why the company suddenly removed the download, although it sure is convenient timing. The utility has been used by many tech reviewers to highlight possible thermal problems with the 6-core 2018 MacBook Pros.”
• This Utility has shown processors in the new MacBook Pros dropping below Apple specified clock speeds. Multiple media outlets have used this Utility to verify the clock speeds produced by these chips.
• Intel has not responded for request for comment, although has since re-released the utility citing bug fixes.

 

Personal notes: @LinusTech showed throttling on the MacBook Pro around 20 minutes of unboxing it using this tool. Good thing he downloaded it before Intel removed it.

https://youtu.be/jtHhvcdjNWw

This is disgraceful.

 

Also to try and hide Apple's blushes.

 

I hope Apple gets hammered in court and/or by the regulators and I hope Intel does too for complicity in trying to brush it under the carpet. By removing said software.

 

Bearing in mind this is a major consumer scandal. Involving a badly designed device sold at a premium by Apple.

[AlwaysFSX]

6 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

See that is the Problem right now!

 

The CPU consumes on average more than the TDP! 

And THAT is the Problem!

Energy going in is not going to be the same as energy coming off the CPU in the form of heat. I don't think you understand that. It's still doing work, it's not a pure space heater.

 

None of this is Intel's fault unless they lied about what the TDP is, and how the define it. Which as far as I'm concerned, they probably didn't. Apple failed to, or did not care, to test their cooling solution for these chips under any workload to see if it could maintain clock speeds.

[Stefan Payne]

17 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Energy going in is not going to be the same as energy coming off the CPU in the form of heat. I don't think you understand that. It's still doing work, it's not a pure space heater.

....

And to what is the Energy converted? Light? Movement? Naa, I don't think so. So that only leaves heat!

Ever heard about the Conservation of Energy?

Your statement is in violation of that law.

Wich makes it impossible!

 

Quote

None of this is Intel's fault unless they lied about what the TDP is, and how the define it. Which as far as I'm concerned, they probably didn't. Apple failed to, or did not care, to test their cooling solution for these chips under any workload to see if it could maintain clock speeds.

Look at the picture of leadeater...

What does that tell you??

Doas THAT look like 45W TDP to you?

[mr moose]

36 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's fine, some people could just find it rude or annoying if multiple people/the first few comments in a thread is just quotes of the posting guidelines.

It annoys the shit out of me, it insinuates the mods aren't doing their job or are quick enough and two if that's the only thing people have to say in a thread then why are they even reading it in the first place?

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

They seem to have lied about the TDP, look at the picture of leadeater...

What I showed was actual power draw, TDP stands for Thermal Design Power. TDP is used by cooler manufacturers only, in this case Apple, to design appropriate coolers for the rated TDP. If you look again at the picture/videos you'll notice after throttling directly after max peak boost the CPU power draw drops to around 45W ish but the cooler is still not able to even dissipate that so base clock are therefore unable to be maintained.

 

Now looking at the graphs I personally feel that i9 should carry a 50W or 55W TDP not 45W but I'm not Intel and I also don't define their TDP spec, there is no industry standard spec either which is a problem in itself. Secondly the cooler on the MacBook Pro does not meet the 45W requirement.

 

Third, like literally everyone in the tech space knows CPUs do boost and go above the TDP figure in actual power draw so designing a cooling solution that only exactly meets the TDP spec is a bad design and one that will not allow the product to perform to it's full potential but it will still perform as stated by the product. A CPU with such a large extreme between base and boost should not have a 45W cooling solution, 60W seems much more appropriate along with more thermal mass to delay heat saturation and throttling.

[mr moose]

14 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

....

And to what is the Energy converted? Light? Movement? Naa, I don't think so. So that only leaves heat!

Ever heard about the Conservation of Energy?

Your statement is in violation of that law.

Wich makes it impossible!

 

Look at the picture of leadeater...

What does that tell you??

Doas THAT look like 45W TDP to you?

You don't understand TDP.   I think I have explained it too many times in these apple threads for people to still be making naive posts regarding TDP. So please stop capitalising words yelling at others, especially  when you are wrong!

 

TDP is NOT the absolute maximum power draw or dissipation that a CPU will exhibit according to anyone least of all Intel.  It is a reference point for engineers to design a cooling solution around. It is simply a point on a scale that tells engineers how much cooling they need to maintain base clocks with a real world almost 100% load.

[Dabombinable]

21 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

....

And to what is the Energy converted? Light? Movement? Naa, I don't think so. So that only leaves heat!

Ever heard about the Conservation of Energy?

Your statement is in violation of that law.

Wich makes it impossible!

 

Look at the picture of leadeater...

What does that tell you??

Doas THAT look like 45W TDP to you?

I had a HP Pavilion DV6 3010AX that managed to cool both a 35W TDP Phenom II N970 and 30W+ TDP (I had a 144MHz OC) Mobility Radeon HD5650 well enough that both would struggle to hit 80^oC under full load (which wasn't difficult to achieve). Apple's cooling solution is just plain shit.

 

Edit: Note as well that the power brick was rated for 90W at most, and that higher TDP first gen i7 (the good quad core ones without an iGPU) were also used in the exact same chassis.

[Stefan Payne]

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What I showed was actual power draw, TDP stands for Thermal Design Power. TDP is used by cooler manufacturers only, in this case Apple, to design appropriate coolers for the rated TDP.

Yes, I know that.

 

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If you look again at the picture/videos you'll notice after throttling directly after max peak boost the CPU power draw drops to around 45W ish but the cooler is still not able to even dissipate that so base clock are therefore unable to be maintained.

See, that was what I was going at.

The CPU shouldn't throttle in the first place!

 

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Now looking at the graphs I personally feel that i9 should carry a 50W or 55W TDP not 45W but I'm not Intel and I also don't define their TDP spec, there is no industry standard spec either which is a problem in itself.

Exactly that was my point, thank you!

Its a bit above the 45W.

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Secondly the cooler on the MacBook Pro does not meet the 45W requirement.

No, it is designed exactly for 45W, not 55 or 50W but 45W and handles that somewhat.

There is already proof of that:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-2018-Much-more-performance-with-a-few-clicks.317552.0.html

 

So with a hard 45W TDP Limit, it works better

 

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Third, like literally everyone in the tech space knows CPUs do boost and go above the TDP figure in actual power draw so designing a cooling solution that only exactly meets the TDP spec is a bad design and one that will not allow the product to perform to it's full potential but it will still perform as stated by the product. A CPU with such a large extreme between base and boost should not have a 45W cooling solution, 60W seems much more appropriate along with more thermal mass to delay heat saturation and throttling.

Öhm, if a 45W TDP CPU "needs" a 60W Cooling solution, doesn't that mean its a 60W TDP CPU and not a 45W one??

 

So you kinda agree with what I'm saying that this i9 CPU shouldn't have been a 45W TDP CPU, right?

And so Apple isn't completely at fault here, Intel als is partially at fault because of this boost...

[Stefan Payne]

25 minutes ago, mr moose said:

TDP is NOT the absolute maximum power draw or dissipation that a CPU will exhibit according to anyone least of all Intel.  It is a reference point for engineers to design a cooling solution around. It is simply a point on a scale that tells engineers how much cooling they need to maintain base clocks with a real world almost 100% load.

Yes and Apple has a 45W TDP Cooling Solution, thus the CPU throttles because a 45W TDP Cooling Solution isn't enough.

That is exactly what I was saying. 

 

So what is your claim that this 45W TDP Cooling Solution Apple uses isn't a 45W TDP Cooling Solution?

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes and Apple has a 45W TDP Cooling Solution, thus the CPU throttles because a 45W TDP Cooling Solution isn't enough.

Are you serious?  First you claim the CPU uses more than the TDP therefore the TDP figure is wrong, then you claim the mac has a 45W cooler proving what exactly?

 

 

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, it is designed exactly for 45W, not 55 or 50W but 45W and handles that somewhat.

There is already proof of that:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-2018-Much-more-performance-with-a-few-clicks.317552.0.html

 

So with a hard 45W TDP Limit, it works better

It performs better because without the limit it boost up, hits thermal junction then throttles down below base as it's supposed to do in that situation. Software limiting only stops the wild spikes it doesn't actually mean the cooler can actually cool 45W it just handles the situation better when there are no 90W spikes.

 

Look at the graphs again and note the package power drops throughout the test, that's thermal junction being hit on a core and the CPU throttles due to that. It only takes one core for that to happen, package temps won't show it but package power indicates that it's happening. So the cooler cannot actually dissipate a sustained 45W load.

[D13H4RD]

1 hour ago, captain_to_fire said:

If it costs $50K but is still using manual transmission then no thank you

I would. 

 

Screw autos 

[captain_to_fire]

3 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

I would. 

 

Screw autos 

I used to say that until I’ve finally learned to like automatic transmission. Though if there’s an advantage of manual is that you can push it when the battery is dead. Can’t do that with auto. 

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

I used to say that until I’ve finally learned to like automatic transmission. Though if there’s an advantage of manual is that you can push it when the battery is dead. Can’t do that with auto. 

To be fair 1990's to early 2000's auto transmissions really were crap.