Apple Deprecating OpenGL

[normality]

Pretty big news that Apple is moving away from OpenGL API in favour of Metal for all apps. 
Will have massive implications for gaming on Apple devices and will probably come into effect in around two years:

https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/

 

Quote

Apps built using OpenGL and OpenCL will continue to run in macOS 10.14, but these legacy technologies are deprecated in macOS 10.14. Games and graphics-intensive apps that use OpenGL should now adopt Metal. Similarly, apps that use OpenCL for computational tasks should now adopt Metal and Metal Performance Shaders.

https://www.pcgamer.com/developers-fear-for-mac-gaming-as-apple-deprecates-opengl-support/

 

Quote

The move has attracted criticism from both users and game developers, partly because Apple does not officially support the Vulkan API on macOS (unofficial workarounds do exist). Vulkan, the successor to OpenGL, is also open-source and cross-platform.

If you're a game developer not using an off-the-shelf engine like Unity, this will make a massive difference to the workload involved in shipping to Apple devices, and probably mean a great deal for legacy games already on the platform.

 

Edit: I should add, I'm a 3D Artist in a Games Studio, but my no means a Technical Programmer. I'm really just relaying info from the company's Tech Director sitting next to me as we discuss the changes in the office. So, am by no means the best person to speculate on the impact of these changes, but in lieu of another thread existing on the forum, I just thought I should spread the word.

[Mira Yurizaki]

It makes me wonder where the heck Vulkan support is.

[normality]

Issue likely surrounds Apple's dislike of third-party companies developing low-level tech for their platform, including the Khronos Group. As such, changes not likely limited to Open GL but all third-party APIs. So, Vulkan will be affected in the same way. 

[Zodiark1593]

Will it be a problem or an obstacle in porting games between iOS and Android?

 

Edit: nevermind, it says the support was deprecated for Mac OS, not iOS (for now).

[normality]

Potentially. I doubt apple would deprecate Open GL without touching GLES.

[Misanthrope]

I see they're getting busy making the wall to that garden taller still.

[Humbug]

1 hour ago, M.Yurizaki said:

It makes me wonder where the heck Vulkan support is.

Apple has banned Vulkan on their platforms as they want everybody to use Metal. They don't allow Nvidia and AMD to release Vulkan drivers for OSX.

 

For that reason Valve recently paid a 3rd party company to open source a Vulkan to Metal abstraction layer known as MoltenVK so that any dev could use that Tech with no royalties

 

In light of this news now we have a deeper understanding of why Valve felt that move is necessary. There is a community of Steam games on OSX. Not comparable to Windows but still...

 

They have also deprecated openCL

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Apple-Deprecates-OpenGL-OpenCL

[Humbug]

The first couple of apps to start adopting MoltenVK for OSX have been

 

QT (the cross platform GUI development framework)

https://blog.qt.io/blog/2018/05/30/vulkan-for-qt-on-macos/

 

Dota 2 (cross platform game)

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/vulkan-can-now-run-on-mac-as-moltenvk-is-now-open-source.11297

 

Devs would rather keep their codebase as consistent across platforms as possible. 

[TopHatProductions115]

Didn't Apple just shoot down allowing the Steam Link app in their App Store? This could get hairy if Apple pursues MoltenVK next. Hopefully, Apple will realize that devs don't want to (or have the time to) write a whole new version of a game just for Apple, in addition to the codebase used for other OS's. Apple can't get special treatment just because they're Apple. There could be consequences if they continue to isolate themselves like this...

[Humbug]

19 minutes ago, TopHatProductions115 said:

 This could get hairy if Apple pursues MoltenVK next. 

It's more difficult to go after MoltenVK. Let's say you have an application engine which targets Vulkan. MoltenVK can act as a translation layer to convert the Vulkan API calls to Metal. So as far as the OS is concerned you are using metal...

[VanayadGaming]

Gaming... on ... Apple? You wot mate?

[GMWolf]

Yet another instance of Apple locking down their ecosystem.
Seriously messed up.
I would hope for devs to boycott apple platforms, but IOS has too great a marketshare.

[AlTech]

Seriously Apple? You're honestly gonna screw over cross-platform developers like that? 

[Jito463]

10 hours ago, Humbug said:

For that reason Valve recently paid a 3rd party company to open source a Vulkan to Metal abstraction layer known as MoltenVK so that any dev could use that Tech with no royalties

 

10 hours ago, TopHatProductions115 said:

Didn't Apple just shoot down allowing the Steam Link app in their App Store? This could get hairy if Apple pursues MoltenVK next.

Considering the linked article about MoltenVK was from February, I wonder if that had any bearing on Apple's decision not to approve the Steam Link app?

[Humbug]

Just now, Jito463 said:

Considering the linked article about MoltenVK was from February, I wonder if that had any bearing on Apple's decision not to approve the Steam Link app?

I think the problem with steam link may have been that it allows you to stream PC games to an iphone / ipad. Whereas Apple would rather encourage people use the app store to purchase native IOS games... Conflict of business interest.

[Jito463]

3 hours ago, Humbug said:

I think the problem with steam link may have been that it allows you to stream PC games to an iphone / ipad. Whereas Apple would rather encourage people use the app store to purchase native IOS games... Conflict of business interest.

Oh, I'm sure that was a factor in their decision, I just wonder if Valve's support of MVK could have played a part in it, as well.

[Christophe Corazza]

Mac and gaming doesn't go along anyway, you need to get a really high end model to have modest frames and since almost every iMac now have 5K displays the GPU is having even more to handle.
For that money you get a gaming PC that is more versatile and you can customize and upgrade while your gaming needs grow and you get way more games available.

Honestly I have more faith in gaming in linux than gaming in mac.

[b4ux1t3]

41 minutes ago, Christophe Corazza said:

Mac and gaming doesn't go along anyway, you need to get a really high end model to have modest frames and since almost every iMac now have 5K displays the GPU is having even more to handle.
For that money you get a gaming PC that is more versatile and you can customize and upgrade while your gaming needs grow and you get way more games available.

Honestly I have more faith in gaming in linux than gaming in mac.

Though this is slightly off-topic, I feel like it bears replying to:

 

Not everyone who wants to use their computer for gaming wants to use it solely for gaming. If you use a Mac in your every day workflow for whatever reason, it would make perfect sense to go with a slightly upgraded model for a few hundred extra dollars rather than building out a completely different machine.

[Christophe Corazza]

1 hour ago, b4ux1t3 said:

Though this is slightly off-topic, I feel like it bears replying to:

 

Not everyone who wants to use their computer for gaming wants to use it solely for gaming. If you use a Mac in your every day workflow for whatever reason, it would make perfect sense to go with a slightly upgraded model for a few hundred extra dollars rather than building out a completely different machine.

 

I was not hinting on using a gaming computer exclusively for gaming.  

[1re]

Guess I better save up faster to get off my imac 

[LAwLz]

Really shitty move, but I wonder why they did it.

What does Apple stand to gain from this? Surely it can't be because they are worried people will port MacOS software to other systems.

[79wjd]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Really shitty move, but I wonder why they did it.

What does Apple stand to gain from this? Surely it can't be because they are worried people will port MacOS software to other systems.

They hope it will lead to a better experience using Metal?

[Mira Yurizaki]

4 hours ago, Christophe Corazza said:

Mac and gaming doesn't go along anyway, you need to get a really high end model to have modest frames and since almost every iMac now have 5K displays the GPU is having even more to handle

Considering it's a 27" monitor, playing games at 2560x1440 isn't going to be that bad.

 

I played games at 2560x1440 on my 27" 4K monitor and I could barely tell the difference.

[JoeCoke]

I'm just wondering if Apple will back pedal on this when Mac OS gets less support.

[NelizMastr]

I'm not really sure why this is a bad thing. Gaming on macOS has been terrible for years. In fact, I haven't seen similar performance between macOS and Windows since the transition to Intel, aside from some very specific Mac ports like WoW and Valve's own titles. The OpenGL implementation was always rather lackluster. That, among other reasons such as cost, is a reason why people don't usually bother getting their games running on the Mac. Just bootcamp for your games and keep macOS clean for what it's designed to do well: productivity.