Pirates Crack Microsoft’s UWP Protection, Five Layers of DRM Defeated

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, ModuleLFS said:

Throw it in a dumpster and do the explosion walk?

Cool guys don't look at explosions 

 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

UWP and windows store are so lame, that explosion would mostly sound like a silent fart with barely noticeable smoke coming out of it

farts should not smoke !!! what have you been eating!

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, RagnarokDel said:

UWP isnt going to die because it was cracked lol. It's still much harder then win32.

It was harder, now the ice is cracked and those cracks will spread quickly. Just like denuvo, securom and all other trash before them. BTW UWP will have a slow and painful death from abandonment...

 

/EDIT

BTW if we count WP this crapware died 3 times already. They pushing it so hard but it still failing....

Edited February 18, 2018 by jagdtigger

[leadeater]

8 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

What's wrong with it?

I don't want to use another management platform for my games. I'm invested in Steam, I have well over 300 games on it and the library management is extremely good. Moving games, backing them up, keeping them up to date, adding DLC, signing up to Betas, everything about it works very well. The Windows Store no matter how good or bad it is makes a hard split between my games and how I have to manage them, Windows Store only is fundamentally bad for this reason.

 

If someone wants to use Windows Store that's fine but not publishing on any other platform to force people over to yours is a right pain and it's even worse when it's not better than what you are currently using.

 

If you want a custom launcher and account for your service do it like the Total War series does, it's just an application part of the actual game files and runs when you click play in Steam. From that launcher screen you can actually start any of the Total War games you have and see any news announcements etc, it's not breaking the Steam side of things like Uplay and Origin does when those are on Steam.

[Trik'Stari]

On 2/17/2018 at 5:12 PM, SC2Mitch said:

Been saying it for ages, DRM is useless and it never will effect game sales massively. 

No but I am likely to buy any game I want from the Windows Store that isn't sold anywhere else on the PC market, then download from somewhere else.

 

Without that capability, I would simply not buy that game.

 

Only one I can think of is State of Decay 2. Which IIRC is only going to be available on the Windows Store for PC. Which is f**king shitty as all hell.

 

If I can't purchase it then download elsewhere, I won't purchase it. Because F**K the Windows Store, F**K DRM, and F**K Microsoft.

[ItsMitch]

36 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Only one I can think of is State of Decay 2. Which IIRC is only going to be available on the Windows Store for PC. Which is f**king shitty as all hell.

And Xbox one consoles, no word on steam yet (closely following it)

[RagnarokDel]

9 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

It was harder, now the ice is cracked and those cracks will spread quickly. Just like denuvo, securom and all other trash before them. BTW UWP will have a slow and painful death from abandonment...

 

/EDIT

BTW if we count WP this crapware died 3 times already. They pushing it so hard but it still failing....

There's more and more legitimate games on the windows store. Let's make baseless claims by pulling shit out of our butt.

[CyanideInsanity]

14 hours ago, RagnarokDel said:

that is... wow.  UWP isnt really an issue by itself. The issue is with the store.

 

It kind of is. Its console-ification of the pc in the sense that it runs the way its made to and you cant tinker with it much, if at all. Phantom dust originally seemed to read resolution from the display and would render sideways, on the left, in a correctly rotated window on the gpd win and there didnt seem to be a way to manually change a config file because the user doesnt have ownership of the folder.

[Trik'Stari]

6 hours ago, SC2Mitch said:

And Xbox one consoles, no word on steam yet (closely following it)

I don't consider that a viable source for purchasing a game.

 

(I've got a water cooled 1080ti, why would I buy a console?)

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I don't consider that a viable source for purchasing a game.

 

(I've got a water cooled 1080ti, why would I buy a console?)

For the same reason I have a PS4, looks good on the shelf.

 

Plus the DS4 makes the best controller for the PC, you can use input mapper to make the touch pad work as a mouse pad.

[MilitantCro]

Now do Forza please

[LAwLz]

On 2/18/2018 at 2:08 AM, mr moose said:

Problem with that is if you bought it legitimately you don't need to remove the cd copy protection to get it working. 

Haven't read the thread so someone might have posted this already, in which case I apologize for the repost.

 

What you're saying is not necessarily true.

The most recent example that comes to my mind would be SafeDisc and SecuROM (some versions).

Microsoft blocks both of these DRMs from working in Windows 10 (they explicitly coded it to not allow those two to work).

Those two were developed by Macrovision and Sony respectively, and Microsoft decided to ban those DRMs on their platform. The reason stated was that they introduced security holes.

 

So if you have a game that uses SafeDisc or certain versions of SecuROM, then you have to disable the DRM in order to play those games, and it is completely out of the developers hands (short of potentially rewriting parts of their games so that the DRM is disabled on the game level).

 

There are also DRMs like Spore where you were only allowed to install the game three times. If you ever wanted to install it a fourth time you needed to buy a new copy. I'm not talking about having it installed on three separate computers either. I'm talking, after three installs, even on the same computer, your CD key is permanently rendered useless.

 

There are countless of examples like this where legitimate customers can no longer use the products they bought because of DRM.

 

 

On 2/18/2018 at 2:22 AM, Canada EH said:

What is UWP and DRM

I'd describe it as an onion.

Under the first layer of DRM is another, and under that another, and they all make you cry.

 

No but seriously.

UWP = Universal Windows Platform. It's a framework for developing applications for Windows 10, Windows Mobile, Xbone and a few other things.

The "apps" you find in the Microsoft Store on Windows 10 are UWP.

 

DRM = Digital Rights Management. It's a collective term for different technologies which control how users can use, modify and distribute products. For example a CD-key is a very primitive DRM technology. It prevented anyone who did not have a CD-key from installing the software on their computer. A more recent version is PlayReady 3.0 which is used by for example Netflix. What it does is check your hardware as well as software to determine if your configuration can be "trusted" with 4K HDR video. And by "trusted" it currently means you use Internet Explorer or Edge, and you have a recent Intel processor. Anything else, like an AMD processor will be blocked from accessing the video.

[Canada EH]

I will try to focus and read the meanings

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Haven't read the thread so someone might have posted this already, in which case I apologize for the repost.

 

What you're saying is not necessarily true.

The most recent example that comes to my mind would be SafeDisc and SecuROM (some versions).

Microsoft blocks both of these DRMs from working in Windows 10 (they explicitly coded it to not allow those two to work).

Those two were developed by Macrovision and Sony respectively, and Microsoft decided to ban those DRMs on their platform. The reason stated was that they introduced security holes.

 

So if you have a game that uses SafeDisc or certain versions of SecuROM, then you have to disable the DRM in order to play those games, and it is completely out of the developers hands (short of potentially rewriting parts of their games so that the DRM is disabled on the game level).

 

There are also DRMs like Spore where you were only allowed to install the game three times. If you ever wanted to install it a fourth time you needed to buy a new copy. I'm not talking about having it installed on three separate computers either. I'm talking, after three installs, even on the same computer, your CD key is permanently rendered useless.

 

There are countless of examples like this where legitimate customers can no longer use the products they bought because of DRM.

 

 

I'd describe it as an onion.

Under the first layer of DRM is another, and under that another, and they all make you cry.

 

No but seriously.

UWP = Universal Windows Platform. It's a framework for developing applications for Windows 10, Windows Mobile, Xbone and a few other things.

The "apps" you find in the Microsoft Store on Windows 10 are UWP.

 

DRM = Digital Rights Management. It's a collective term for different technologies which control how users can use, modify and distribute products. For example a CD-key is a very primitive DRM technology. It prevented anyone who did not have a CD-key from installing the software on their computer. A more recent version is PlayReady 3.0 which is used by for example Netflix. What it does is check your hardware as well as software to determine if your configuration can be "trusted" with 4K HDR video. And by "trusted" it currently means you use Internet Explorer or Edge, and you have a recent Intel processor. Anything else, like an AMD processor will be blocked from accessing the video.

So as I have already said, that is not a case of DRM being the Issue, But companies not properly supporting there products.   If MS won't allow DRM to run due to security then it is up to Sony to fix it.   This is not a DRM issue but a company one.

[jagdtigger]

16 hours ago, RagnarokDel said:

There's more and more legitimate games on the windows store. Let's make baseless claims by pulling shit out of our butt.

A few wrapped win32 programs wont change anything, quite the contrary. It just proves how useless UWP really is....

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

A few wrapped win32 programs wont change anything, quite the contrary. It just proves how useless UWP really is....

It's because you don't see the UWP picture.

 

Native UWP are program that gives a great experience on any types of device, and can be made available for all sorts of devices. Sure, you can do that with Win32, but it is hell from a developer perspective. Heck, many programs are having difficulty supporting high-DPI screen on Win32... forget multiple different HIgh-DPI monitors setups, or touch screen, or pen support.

 

And I'll just mention this in the case you didn't know. You don't have to get UWP apps from the Store. If devs wants it, they can package UWP apps and make it downloadable from its website. And like the classic fashion, you can download them, double click on it, and have it installed.

[jagdtigger]

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

It's because you don't see the UWP picture.

I see the big picture where they failed 4 times already.... (This one is failed too, how long 10 is out now? 2 years? And its still pretty much ignored in my experience. Making possible to wrap win32 into it was a last ditch effort on MS's part but it seems it won do any good.)

[LAwLz]

12 hours ago, mr moose said:

So as I have already said, that is not a case of DRM being the Issue, But companies not properly supporting there products.   If MS won't allow DRM to run due to security then it is up to Sony to fix it.   This is not a DRM issue but a company one.

I disagree that it isn't a DRM issue.

It is the DRM preventing the customer from accessing the product they have purchased, and by circumventing the DRM they are once again able to enjoy the product they paid money for.

Sure, if Sony themselves went and patched the hundreds if not thousands of games using their old DRM then they might be able to solve some of the issues we have today with their DRM, but both you and I know that's impractical and completely unrealistic. Especially not since they aren't the ones blocking the DRM to begin with.

 

At the end of the day, DRM's sole purpose is to limit what the users can do with the product they have bought, and I think that's wrong on a moral level.

[mr moose]

37 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I disagree that it isn't a DRM issue.

It is the DRM preventing the customer from accessing the product they have purchased, and by circumventing the DRM they are once again able to enjoy the product they paid money for.

Sure, if Sony themselves went and patched the hundreds if not thousands of games using their old DRM then they might be able to solve some of the issues we have today with their DRM, but both you and I know that's impractical and completely unrealistic. Especially not since they aren't the ones blocking the DRM to begin with.

 

At the end of the day, DRM's sole purpose is to limit what the users can do with the product they have bought, and I think that's wrong on a moral level.

 

So some is a problem because it's obsolete software and some is a problem because sony won't support their own products.   Either way companies supporting their products would change that.  

 

Given DRM doesn't stop anyone playing the latest games there is no need to crack it. 

[suicidalfranco]

5 layers? no wonder UWP games run like crap when also present on other platforms as standard Win32 games. 

[leadeater]

27 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

So some is a problem because it's obsolete software and some is a problem because sony won't support their own products.   Either way companies supporting their products would change that.  

 

Given DRM doesn't stop anyone playing the latest games there is no need to crack it. 

Or design DRM that doesn't rely on or die with company support, like requiring server check-in. Or make it so companies are legally required to update the final supported version of the game so it will always work after servers and support have been discontinued.

[gGODg]

isn't x86 itself and all forms of programming languages built ontop of it, all forms of DRM anyway and performance and compatibility will be compromised for conveniences until down to machine code.

 

much like amd tried with mantle just to get replaced by vulcan and directx12 due to convenience of developers not performance.  in an already drm everything world with drm forms like c++ , visual c, java, javascript , hvec , avi , etc etc etc.   

 

sure its not the same as what's referred to as DRM today. already so deep into disguising machine code, which virtually no one is taught to produce in today, best form of DRM there is, eh

[LAwLz]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Or design DRM that doesn't rely on or die with company support, like requiring server check-in. Or make it so companies are legally required to update the final supported version of the game so it will always work after servers and support have been discontinued.

The ones I mentioned did not necessarily rely on online servers to validate the game (although in some instances SecureROM did).

It's just that Microsoft though it was too "deeply embedded in the system" and "supporting SecuROM could have been a possible loophole for computer viruses".

 

So even if you design a DRM like you suggested, a company like Microsoft might decide to block it in the future.

 

DRM will always introduce the possibility that you may one day not be able to use the product you legally bought.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, gGODg said:

isn't x86 itself and all forms of programming languages built ontop of it, all forms of DRM anyway

No.

[mr moose]

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Are you playing ignorant or do you genuinely don't understand the issues here?

Different opinion doesn't mean ignorance.

 

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Sony and Macrovision developed the DRMs, not the games. It is completely out of their control if a game gets updated or not, and it was used in hundreds if not thousands of games.

It doesn't matter who developed the DRM, the company that implemented it and didn't support the product with it in is the problem.

 

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Also, I think it is quite frankly insulting to art as a whole by suggesting that things like games can become "obsolete". What's next, you're going to say that nobody should read the Lord of the Rings books because we have the movies?

Games, and art in general, do not become obsolete.

Some old games become obsolete because they are on a cd's which many pc's don't have drives for,  because they are written in code that you have to manufacture third party emulation software for (dosbox, or any of the ROM emulators) in order to play them.  We are not talking about the art being obsolete, but the technology they use. 

 

Also, As I said right back at the start of this, why do people keep going back to decades old sofware when defending pirates cracking today's DRM? If that's not illogical then I don;t know what is.

 

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

And once again you're just shifting the blame. Yes it is possible for companies, or users, to work around the DRM which is currently causing the issues, but that does not change the fact that it is the DRM itself causing the issues.

Not shifting the blame at all.  You think the DRM is the issue, I think it is the company that implements it.

 

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

If my hard drive breaks then I don't say "the issue is that I haven't changed my hard drive" right? I say the hard drive is the issue, since that's the part that doesn't work. It's the same thing here. The DRM is the issue. Workarounds (from either the company or the users) is the solution. The lack of workarounds is not the core issue, the DRM is.

That doesn't even make sense as an analogy let alone explain anything.

 

11 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

 

Also, why are you so hellbent on defending DRM, to the point where you're shifting the blame and doing other mental gymnastics just to avoid saying anything negative about it?

I can't think of a single instance where the consumers has benefited from DRM. I can also not think of a single time where a product wouldn't have been better if the DRM was removed.

Actually, I'm just pointing out that if people buy their games and software legitimately then DRM is not an issue Especially with the latest stuff.  Cracking all the latest titles is little more than piracy, and for what ever reason the idea that that is wrong upsets people.

 

17 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Or design DRM that doesn't rely on or die with company support, like requiring server check-in. Or make it so companies are legally required to update the final supported version of the game so it will always work after servers and support have been discontinued.

That would be, by my definition, companies providing adequate support for their products.  

 

 

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The ones I mentioned did not necessarily rely on online servers to validate the game (although in some instances SecureROM did).

It's just that Microsoft though it was too "deeply embedded in the system" and "supporting SecuROM could have been a possible loophole for computer viruses".

 

So even if you design a DRM like you suggested, a company like Microsoft might decide to block it in the future.

"Might", that sounds like a concrete reason to promote piracy, they "might" block it in the future.

 

 

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

DRM will always introduce the possibility that you may one day not be able to use the product you legally bought.

 

 

.

So does many facets of technology, like discs becoming obsolete and OS's becoming so far removed from the originals that software was written for, not too mention hardware dropping legacy features needed for older programs. But DRM itself doesn't have to, it can be written in order to not be the issue. It can even be totally made redundant by a company if they wanted by simply releasing the serial keys.   Again it is the way it is implemented, not what it is.