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AMD Ryzen has issues with high frequency RAM! - Fix will come in 1-2 months

kladzen
By kladzen
in Tech News
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Posted
2 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

But Linus said...

That was for DDR3

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
Just now, SamStrecker said:

That was for DDR3

It was also wrong back then.

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

That was for DDR3

 

12 minutes ago, MageTank said:

It was also wrong back then.

Yeep. I swapped my 1600Mhz memory for 2133Mhz memory for my 2500k and wouldn't you know it, higher minimum framerates. Wonder how that happened.

 

 

a5viI92PAF89q.gif

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Just now, Kloaked said:

 

Yeep. I swapped my 1600Mhz memory for 2133Mhz memory for my 2500k and wouldn't you know it, higher minimum framerates. Wonder how that happened.

 

 

 

Space Magic.

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

Does memory speed impact gaming performance? Click here to find out!

On 1/2/2017 at 9:32 PM, MageTank said:

Sometimes, we all need a little inspiration.

 

 

 

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Posted
Just now, MageTank said:

Space Magic.

Probably placebo, because Linus is absolutely never wrong about absolutely anything.

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37 minutes ago, MageTank said:

You are nitpicking. In the context of gaming, CPU overhead is I/O overhead. You can easily test any game you wish, that has the CPU holding the GPU back. Even MMO's show drastic improvements with faster memory, and they are notoriously "CPU bound". 

 

No need to be bashful against a simple point. Depending on ones setup, and the specific application involved, faster memory can be a serious boon. I can name several titles that can see even a 20% boost in minimum framerates from faster memory alone depending on ones setup. 

No, you are the one nitpicking. I might have come off as pedantic, but my statements hold true across the board. I'm sure there is a bunch of intellectual people in here who didn't have to had it clarified, but I'm also certain that the vast majority do.

 

I'm not trying to be bashful, I'm simply trying to clarify some things. As you say, some titles will see a 20% boost from faster memory, isn't it then important that we point out where the bottleneck is with correct terminologies? Instead of having people upgrade their I5 to an I7 and still run with 1333MHz memory, because a game was "CPU bound"?

Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

"the last 20 percent – going from demo to production-worthy algorithm – is both hard and is time-consuming. The last 20 percent is what separates the men from the boys" - Mobileye CEO

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I heard the news and looked at the spec sheet of this Asrock motherboard:
http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/Fatal1ty X370 Gaming K4/index.asp#Specification
If you go down to the memory segment it says:

Quote

 

- Dual Channel DDR4 Memory Technology
- 4 x DDR4 DIMM Slots
- Supports DDR4 2667/2400/2133 ECC & non-ECC, un-buffered memory*
- Max. capacity of system memory: 64GB**
- 15μ Gold Contact in DIMM Slots
 

*Please refer to below table for DDR4 UDIMM maximum frequency support.
A-Series APUs:
UDIMM Memory Slot Frequency(MHZ)
A1 A2 B1 B2
- SR - - 2400
- DR - - 2400
- SR - SR 2400
- DR - DR 2133
SR SR SR SR 1866
SR/DR DR SR/DR DR 1866

Ryzen Series CPUs:
UDIMM Memory Slot Frequency(MHZ)
A1 A2 B1 B2
- SR - - 2667
- DR - - 2667
- SR - SR 2667
- DR - DR 2400-2667
SR SR SR SR 2133-2400
SR/DR DR SR/DR DR 1866-2133


SR: Single rank DIMM, 1Rx4 or 1Rx8 on DIMM module label
DR: Dual rank DIMM, 2Rx4 or 2Rx8 on DIMM module label

 

That is a bad sign if the max they recommend are 4 slots on max 2400mhz and up to 2667
 
The MSI X370 carbon memory compatibility list (https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/X370-GAMING-PRO-CARBON.html#support-mem) contains RAM DIMMs with supported speeds up to 3200mhz with 2 DIMMs and only up to 2400mhz on 4 DIMMs but have a note that says:
Quote

Note:
1) DDR4 2400 MHz and higher memory module will only run at maximum of DDR4 2400Mhz due to AMD® chipset limitation when using 7 th Gen A series CPU
2) To ensure system stability with A-XMP enabled, DDR4 memory might run a different frequency/timings/voltage setting when using Intel XMP spec memory and set A-XMP item to enabled in AMD system.
3) Always insert memory modules in the DIMMA2 slot first. Link
4) The stability and compatibility of installed memory module depend on installed CPU and devices when overclocking.


So it looks like 4 high speed DIMMs will be an issue not just with ASUS but more manufactures, if this can be fixed post launch, I'll be a happy person, if not, kinda crappy.
 

I just bought half of my system and I'm waiting for Ryzen reviews to either go AMD or Intel but I already bought my G.Skill 2x8GB 3000mhz RGB ram (to get my system to the next RGB level). So I won't have a problem but upgrading might be an issue which I do see happening....

---------
As for the Faster ram is faster discussion. In many cases faster ram does not equal better performance but there are situations/use cases where it does matter. one instance comes to mind that back in the day of GTA 4, we figured out on a LAN party that it was better to have 4GB of 800mhz DDR2 than 8GB of 677mhz. Now this looked like a bottleneck in a sence of a minimum speed vs faster ram == more fps because with my 1066mhz ram I didn't see any improvements over the 800mhz.

Forward to 2017 and DDR4 look at this article (http://techbuyersguru.com/gaming-ddr4-memory-2133-vs-26663200mhz-8gb-vs-16gb?page=1) which basically tells you that faster ram does not make a significant impact on FPS, going from 2133 to 3200mhz they saw a 1,5fps increase. for that you better spend your dollars on a better GPU/CPU or overclocking gear.
For non gaming scenario's, I have no clue, someone with a bigger/greyer beard of wisdom may answer that ;)

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But will it work with RGB ram? if so then it's all good. 

PC - NZXT H510 Elite, Ryzen 5600, 16GB DDR3200 2x8GB, EVGA 3070 FTW3 Ultra, Asus VG278HQ 165hz,

 

Mac - 1.4ghz i5, 4GB DDR3 1600mhz, Intel HD 5000.  x2

 

Endlessly wishing for a BBQ in space.

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Looking at the Memory QVL for the GA-AX370-GAMING5 the best combo for 4 stick memory is a kingston hyperX at 2666mhz with 4 DIMMs which is already better than max 2400mhz yet no where near 3200mhz. Though they didn't test any DIMMs higher as far as I can see anyway, not even with just 2 DIMMs so hard to say what it means for faster ram. I guess they need to test again/more ram with the new BIOS to officially say they support higher speeds. Looking good already ;)
And if da MEGAHERTZZ are limited, you could always try to crank down the latency which is half the battle right?

 

1 hour ago, Kierax said:

But will it work with RGB ram? if so then it's all good. 

Worst case scenario I'm stuck with Rainbow road mode all the time which is "IMO DOPE AF" as Linus would say, G.Skill only lists Z270 chipset based motherboard on their website but Linus said that G.Skill said that "Ryzen will be supported soon"™ I mean, you can't properly claim if it works if you can't test it because it isn't out right? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scQXZAJ7ohU)

 

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10 hours ago, blackmambo said:

Seems like click-bait AF to me.
Why should I believe 1 random bloke on the internet claiming something?
Yet, at the same time, another random bloke on the internet is claiming something else?

Yeah, I'll wait until some professional websites do some thorough reviews regarding the RAM speeds and compatibility.

Maybe because Lucky_N00b is stupid and doesn't realize the claim was that Ryzen struggles with 4 high speed DIMMS installed?

 

Claim: Running 4 sticks of RAM at 2400MHz or higher causes issues on Ryzen CPUs.

AMD fanboys: No it doesn't! Look this guy is using two sticks on 3000MHz RAM and it works fine! It's just clickbait and fake news!

 

For crying out loud, even this statement is false:

Quote

Which was later confirmed by an ASUS rep, with info posted in that thread.

Most of the ASUS boards do NOT support 3200mhz RAM when 4 DIMMs are used. They only go up to 2666mhz currently. ASUS expects a new bios revision to fix that issue.

 

Wanna know what the Asus rep actually said?

Quote

I’ve decided to provide some recommendations on DDR4 limitations concerning AM4 currently.

As it stands the AMD code has restricted RAM tuning options which means many RAM kits at launch will not be compatible. This is the same for our competitors also.
What we recommend is the following:
If fully populating a system with 4 DIMMs (2DPC), use memory up to a max of 2400MHz.
If using 1DPC (2 DIMMs) ensure they are installed in A2/B2 and use memory up to max of 3200MHz.

The indication I have received from HQ is that AMD has focused all their efforts on CPU performance so far and will release updated code in 1~2 months when we expect improved DDR4 compatibility and performance."


In short if filling all 4 DIMM's set your speed to 2400MHz and work up from there.
If using 2 DIMM's put them in the A2/B2 slots and a max of 3200MHz should be possible.

In our testing only the Crosshair board achieved 3000-3200MHz, the others were in the 2400-2666MHz range.

BIOS updates will come!

 

Again, DO NOT TRUST ANYTHING SAID ON /r/AMD!

THE PEOPLE THERE ARE 100% FINE WITH LYING TO MAKE AMD LOOK BETTER.

 

It is a forum full of AMD fanboys. It is one of the least trustworthy places you can go to get AMD news.

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11 hours ago, Tomsen said:

Well, it isn't absolute truth either, it depends on the exact scenario. Any time CPU overhead (and to precise, it has to be I/O overhead) is holding the GPU back, faster memory will show an improvement. If you are CPU bound, faster memory wont do anything. This has being known for decades now.

Don't you mean GPU bound?

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X2 8GB 16GB kit is what many performance builds use anyway lmao

 

 

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I had no intentions of filling those 4 slots yet. I was going to buy 2 sticks of 8 gb and a latter date upgrade. With the conversion rate of the CAD it's the best approach IMO.

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1 hour ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Don't you mean GPU bound?

Nope.

Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

"the last 20 percent – going from demo to production-worthy algorithm – is both hard and is time-consuming. The last 20 percent is what separates the men from the boys" - Mobileye CEO

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On 2/24/2017 at 0:10 PM, Mr.Meerkat said:

Kinda true and not true where it doesn't really in gaming but in other tasks, possibly...(such as Winrar) 

Modern video games do benefit from faster RAM to a great degree. 

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6 minutes ago, Tomsen said:

Nope.

Uhh.... ok.  Well, everything I've seen and heard on the topic has said/shown that when you're suffering from a CPU bottleneck, faster RAM will help, and if you're not, it doesn't really make a difference.  You're saying, and I quote, "If you are CPU bound, faster memory wont do anything".  Which Linus has also said in the past... (well, he just outright says it doesn't matter with no qualifiers on it at all, but I digress).  I think there's some sort of miscommunication or misunderstanding here :/ 

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good these issues are coming out and will be fixed before the APU and Opteron releases

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ψ ︿_____︿_ψ_   

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2 hours ago, Tomsen said:

Nope.

You should:

Because faster RAM does make a difference when there is a CPU bottleneck in multiple games.

Edit: The same applies to AMD's FX series as well, though the IMC can be a bit more limiting due to AMD not being that good at designing them. Compare the memory bandwidth of; DDR3 1333 on Piledriver, DDR3 800 on Arrandale, DDR3 1333 on Danube -you'll find that the write and copy speeds are extremely close between Piledriver and Arrandale, and that Danube is faster in all areas with lower latency as well.

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7 hours ago, Godlygamer23 said:

Modern video games do benefit from faster RAM to a great degree. 

Fair enough :P 

Looking at my signature are we now? Well too bad there's nothing here...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What? As I said, there seriously is nothing here :) 

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22 hours ago, Tomsen said:

No, you are the one nitpicking. I might have come off as pedantic, but my statements hold true across the board. I'm sure there is a bunch of intellectual people in here who didn't have to had it clarified, but I'm also certain that the vast majority do.

 

I'm not trying to be bashful, I'm simply trying to clarify some things. As you say, some titles will see a 20% boost from faster memory, isn't it then important that we point out where the bottleneck is with correct terminologies? Instead of having people upgrade their I5 to an I7 and still run with 1333MHz memory, because a game was "CPU bound"?

If you could specify exactly where I was nitpicking, i'd gladly admit to it. Last I checked, the person you quoted made a general statement (the first half being true the vast majority of the time). You seem so keen on explaining without providing any sources for people to study up on. If your intent is to offer clarification, provide the means for people to understand what you are saying. Dumbing it down to "CPU Overhead" is easier, because it's a terminology that's commonly used to describe the type of CPU bottleneck that holds a GPU back. The entire industry uses it, as does the people that researched memory and it's impact on gaming performance. Look back as far as a few years ago, and you see titles like this: http://www.overclock.net/t/1487162/an-independent-study-does-the-speed-of-ram-directly-affect-fps-during-high-cpu-overhead-scenarios

http://www.overclock.net/t/1586767/digital-foundry-memory-overclocking-and-how-it-affects-fps-in-8-different-games

Looking at the videos on that second link, you have DigitalFoundry using the words "CPU Overhead". Why? Because a blanket term is easier to convey than trying to explain CPU I/O to people in graphic detail. While it might not be the "correct" terminology to use, as long as it conveys the same information, it's good enough.

 

If you have information as to why memory bandwidth is helping alleviate CPU overhead, I'd appreciate it. I know that it helps, but I personally lack the understanding of why it helps. All I know is, when a specific part of a game is holding my GPU back on the CPU side of things, faster memory makes a very noticeable difference in minimum framerates. If we teach people why that is, then we can finally put that old LTT video to rest. 

My (incomplete) memory overclocking guide: 

 

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9 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Uhh.... ok.  Well, everything I've seen and heard on the topic has said/shown that when you're suffering from a CPU bottleneck, faster RAM will help, and if you're not, it doesn't really make a difference.  You're saying, and I quote, "If you are CPU bound, faster memory wont do anything".  Which Linus has also said in the past... (well, he just outright says it doesn't matter with no qualifiers on it at all, but I digress).  I think there's some sort of miscommunication or misunderstanding here :/ 

That is because people use the wrong terminologies. You are not CPU bound if faster memory yield any major performance increase, you are I/O bound.

 

6 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

-

Same as above.

Please avoid feeding the argumentative narcissistic academic monkey.

"the last 20 percent – going from demo to production-worthy algorithm – is both hard and is time-consuming. The last 20 percent is what separates the men from the boys" - Mobileye CEO

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A very interesting post regarding Ryzen and its memory bandwidth over at OcUK
 

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/30542496/

 

Quote

Some food for thought which I posted in the memory thread.

 

First off we had some rumours about weak IMC due to supposedly low speed. This was followed by a rumour that actually Zen had insane efficiency way above Intel and as such lower speeds actually had same performance as higher on Intel.

 

http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_run.php?q=c2ffcdffd9b8d9e4dceadceddae3c5b78aba9cf99ca191b7c4f9c9&l=en

 

This is a Zen getting 33.99GB/s out of 2133Mhz memory, which has a theoretical maximum bandwidth of 34.128GB/s... meaning, epic efficiency.

 

For comparison you have

 

http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_run.php?q=c2ffcdffd9b8d9e4dcefdae3d5e7c1b38ebe98fd98a595b3c0fdcd&l=en

 

Broadwell-e with 3200Mhz memory achieving 74.97GB/s with max theoretical of 102.4GB/s, so around 75% efficiency.

 

http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_run.php?q=c2ffcdffd9b8d9e4d3ebd3ead3e6c0b28fbf99fc99a494b2c1fccc&l=en

 

Skylake with similar (lower latency though) memory achieving 26.52GB/s at 2133Mhz, with obviously max theoretical of 34.128GB/s. A little over 75% efficiency. Another way to look at the results, if true, is that Zen has 28% higher bandwidth at the same memory speed.

 

If that scales at the same rate then 2666Mhz on Zen would give the same bandwidth that Skylake(and thus Kaby) would at 3400Mhz.

 

Along with those rumours was a mention that Zen was currently locked at 1t, we also have Asus managing to get higher memory speed. I wonder if Asus unlocked some settings that aren't supposed to be unlocked yet and in doing so managed to lower timings to up memory speeds, but sacrificing efficiency.

 

Basically I'm just trying to say, heads up, new platform, don't assume 2666Mhz is even bad, OR that 3200Mhz(at potentially much lower timings) is automatically better than 2666Mhz.

 

http://www.corsair.com/en-eu/blog/2014/september/ddr3_vs_ddr4_synthetic

 

Posted this before, but another thing to bear in mind, Haswell tanked in bandwidth efficiency after 2400mhz. We absolutely do not know that super fast memory speeds will bring ANY better performance yet. I mean Sisoft doesn't usually get faked afaik, and the result fits with some rumour 1-2 weeks back, it would also explain most issues of getting higher memory speeds. 

 

I would say, don't jump on a £250 board because someone is telling you 3200Mhz needs a £250 board, because we don't even know if 3200Mhz is faster, besides the fact that I fully expect lots of cheaper boards to be updated and tweaked to achieve ballpark similar clock speeds at some point anyway.

5950X | NH D15S | 64GB 3200Mhz | RTX 3090 | ASUS PG348Q+MG278Q

 

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