thoughts on Obama's education plan for 2015

[Real_PhillBert]

My issue with this is simple, I do not want to pay to give other people free stuff.

 

I got a job early in high school, I worked hard, and as a result I paid for every single penny of my engineering degree out of my pocket. I received exactly zero help from banks, the government, or my parents. I did not go to an ivy league university, but I did go to a good (top 50 engineering programs in the US) university. 

 

The idea that people seem to wrapped up in that college is to expensive for people to afford, I find laughable. YOU DO NOT NEED A MERCEDES!! Stop spending money on stupid, pointless, and irreverent things and you will find that paying for your own damned education is not impossible!!!!!!!

 

/Rant off.

[FuzzyYellow]

I think its good for people to have to work for their education, it motivates them. Just like the welfare system is taking billions of dollars out of the hard working peopl's pockets and sticking it in fat, lazy people who spend it all on booze and drugs, this is the same concept.

Kinda like way back when if you didnt work, you didn't eat. We need to go back to a time like that, and get rid of the entitlement people think they have.

I am not saying welfare is bad, there is a time and a place for it. But the welfare system is being abused. To such a degree that a majority of Americans received done form of government assistance. And frankly, the US doesn't have money to spend on stuff like this. WE ARE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DEBT PEOPLE!!!

[Phillyphries]

Making states pick up the cost...

 

Arizona does not have money to throw around on things like this. Which means higher taxes, per demand of the federal government.

 

Ugh.

 

This is a terrible plan. We can't afford to hand out people free things anymore. We can hardly fund our own public schools without compromising our other needs.

 

WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR SOMEBODY ELSE TO GO TO COLLEGE. I AM PAYING FOR MY OWN EDUCATION, NOT YOURS.

[handymanshandle]

I think its good for people to have to work for their education, it motivates them. Just like the welfare system is taking billions of dollars out of the hard working peopl's pockets and sticking it in fat, lazy people who spend it all on booze and drugs, this is the same concept.

Kinda like way back when if you didnt work, you didn't eat. We need to go back to a time like that, and get rid of the entitlement people think they have.

I am not saying welfare is bad, there is a time and a place for it. But the welfare system is being abused. To such a degree that a majority of Americans received done form of government assistance. And frankly, the US doesn't have money to spend on stuff like this. WE ARE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DEBT PEOPLE!!!

 

To some degree that is sort of true but at least it goes back into the economy, Whereas when people have millions upon billions of dollars and most of it lie in either a domestic bank or a foreign bank and it hurts the economy -- Shopping local also helps the economy, if the US cut the Military budget by 10% there would be more in the pot for social programs but to pay of the US debt every US citizen would have to pay about $57,254.81 to pay of the total debt of the US which is (As of 8 Jan 2015 is $18,098,246,253,000) and most of the debt that the US owes is to Social Security. Another great way of making money is to legalize Cannabis/Marijuana for recreational use as it has yielded Colorado more than they had anticipated. His proposal is a good step but it's not going far enough for higher education. Though I find it hard to see this country being anything great nor was it ever really, I know odd I was born and grew up in the US and I don't have the ridiculous sense of egotism and nationalism/patriotism that is found in many Americans of course I must say it's better than a lot of third world countries in terms of health, etc. but it comes at a cost that almost makes life comparable to that of a third world nation of course not as bad though this country has the corruption, and violence of a third world nation but it lacks the visible poverty. I would much rather live in France, Sweden, Iceland, Germany or the Netherlands as these countries have exemplary qualities of life and so much more that the US lacks or can't see that it needs to fix, in other words I feel that if the bible belt got what it wanted since/during Civil War times and maybe a lot more could get done for those who actually want to make things better for the people not the wealthy or if Justin Trudeau's party gets majority this year maybe then what's left of the US can annex into Canada.

[Poohy14]

Ehh I dont know how well this will work. My community college I go to relies on people coming there to update equipment for new technology into fields. My major I'm in is electricity and since our college doesn't have enough money as it is and we are stuck with equipment from the 70's to early 2000's its hard to use the new equipment due to the fact that its too expensive to buy. The college I go to is rated higher than a University for the electrical program by companies since they know more. I don't know how much this will impact the colleges but I'm sure it will impact it enough to see that it was a bad idea, possibly.

[FuzzyYellow]

To some degree that is sort of true but at least it goes back into the economy, Whereas when people have millions upon billions of dollars and most of it lie in either a domestic bank or a foreign bank and it hurts the economy -- Shopping local also helps the economy, if the US cut the Military budget by 10% there would be more in the pot for social programs but to pay of the US debt every US citizen would have to pay about $57,254.81 to pay of the total debt of the US which is (As of 8 Jan 2015 is $18,098,246,253,000) and most of the debt that the US owes is to Social Security. Another great way of making money is to legalize Cannabis/Marijuana for recreational use as it has yielded Colorado more than they had anticipated. His proposal is a good step but it's not going far enough for higher education. Though I find it hard to see this country being anything great nor was it ever really, I know odd I was born and grew up in the US and I don't have the ridiculous sense of egotism and nationalism/patriotism that is found in many Americans of course I must say it's better than a lot of third world countries in terms of health, etc. but it comes at a cost that almost makes life comparable to that of a third world nation of course not as bad though this country has the corruption, and violence of a third world nation but it lacks the visible poverty. I would much rather live in France, Sweden, Iceland, Germany or the Netherlands as these countries have exemplary qualities of life and so much more that the US lacks or can't see that it needs to fix, in other words I feel that if the bible belt got what it wanted since/during Civil War times and maybe a lot more could get done for those who actually want to make things better for the people not the wealthy or if Justin Trudeau's party gets majority this year maybe then what's left of the US can annex into Canada.

But we still shouldn't be putting taxpayers money into other, lazier peoples pockets. That money could be used elsewhere. If people want higher education, they can pay for it themselves. The government already pays for the first 12 years of your education, isn't that enough? The solution to the debt issue is to cut spending on unnecessary and frivolous things, like providing assistance to people who are too lazy to work for it, or paying for perfectly capable people's college education.

Think of it this way. If these people, instead of getting free handouts, what if those people contributed to society instead of being a burden?

I understand helping people who are struggling, or have a disability, but perfectly capable people should not be sitting on their asses all day getting high and watching Tv.

But I think this is all a part of Obama's plan. He is slowly turning our country into a communistic mess. Think about it. He is making more and more people dependent on the government to provide them with necessities so no one will have control over anything. He's trying to take away rights, he's using executive order like a dictator. Eventually, well lose all our rights, we won't be able to say what we want to say, or buy food, because the government owned everything, and splits everything up "equally" no matter how hard you contribute, or don't.

It sounds crazy, now, but in a few years, it may not.

[handymanshandle]

But we still shouldn't be putting taxpayers money into other, lazier peoples pockets. That money could be used elsewhere. If people want higher education, they can pay for it themselves. The government already pays for the first 12 years of your education, isn't that enough? The solution to the debt issue is to cut spending on unnecessary and frivolous things, like providing assistance to people who are too lazy to work for it, or paying for perfectly capable people's college education.

Think of it this way. If these people, instead of getting free handouts, what if those people contributed to society instead of being a burden?

I understand helping people who are struggling, or have a disability, but perfectly capable people should not be sitting on their asses all day getting high and watching Tv.

But I think this is all a part of Obama's plan. He is slowly turning our country into a communistic mess. Think about it. He is making more and more people dependent on the government to provide them with necessities so no one will have control over anything. He's trying to take away rights, he's using executive order like a dictator. Eventually, well lose all our rights, we won't be able to say what we want to say, or buy food, because the government owned everything, and splits everything up "equally" no matter how hard you contribute, or don't.

It sounds crazy, now, but in a few years, it may not.

Erm he's out next year or well the beginning of 2017, I really hope Bernie Sanders wins but Hillary would be okay too. Many jobs require a degree as a simple High School diploma does not go as far as you might think. I guess if privatized education is really what this cesspit wants I guess making the loans forgivable can at least help. Communism only fails when it's under an authoritarian regime which does tend to follow Communism, I'm not saying Communism is good - Mixed Market Socialism is much better. I find it interesting how people fretted and fretted how Obama was going to take away our rights and really none of that has happened (Scare tactics much?) I must say both the republican and democratic parties are both corrupt and corporate sponsored so really it doesn't matter. Trickle effect economy or "Reaganomics" has not benefited the US by much if not at all and only hurt the other 99%. 

 

[FuzzyYellow]

Erm he's out next year or well the beginning of 2017, I really hope Bernie Sanders wins but Hillary would be okay too. Many jobs require a degree as a simple High School diploma does not go as far as you might think. I guess if privatized education is really what this cesspit wants I guess making the loans forgivable can at least help. Communism only fails when it's under an authoritarian regime which does tend to follow Communism, I'm not saying Communism is good - Mixed Market Socialism is much better. I find it interesting how people fretted and fretted how Obama was going to take away our rights and really none of that has happened (Scare tactics much?) I must say both the republican and democratic parties are both corrupt and corporate sponsored so really it doesn't matter. Trickle effect economy or "Reaganomics" has not benefited the US by much if not at all and only hurt the other 99%.

IMO Hillary Clinton would be the worst thing for this country right now. I know Obama is out, but he has paved the way for socialism to creep in.

Also, i never said anything about a highshcool education being enough. My point was that instead of having government paid college, people could work to pay for their education, and both contribute while they are in school, and after they get their degree.

And although both parties are corrupted, it seems to me that the republican side is a little less corrupt.

[Mooshi]

Considering higher forms of education in the US is hardcore indoctrination (even primary school these days), I'm on the fence here. As long as stupid agendas are thrown out in favor of actual education.

[Corp666]

I was just listing an example. I don't solely blame the military.

I could also blame large corporations who don't pay a fair wage and who abuse the system for political gain and voice.

I could blame the system itself for allowing large corporations to be seen as a "person" with voting rights and a political assignments.

I could blame politicians who gladly accept political "donations" from Oil, Gun lobyists, the auto industry etc. all to strengthen their political reach in exchange for favors.

 

I have said these things in the past, so no I don't blame the military solely. I blame damn near everyone in power.

 

-What is a "fair wage" and who decides?  Why should a corporation be forced to pay someone more than the job is worth?  And you realize, I hope, that if you tell a corporation they must pay more for a job than the value of that job, they will just outsource overseas or automate and eliminate the job entirely.

 

-Corporations don't have voting rights.  They can donate money to political causes just as unions can.  What's the difference?

 

-Those politicians also accept "donations" from the solar power industry, high speed rail interests, stem cell research companies and USA manufacturing companies in exchange for favors.

[Corp666]

And that I can agree with whole heartedly. If you take all the people in companies that make over $10m and limit their pay to $4m and put the rest towards employees then everyone will be able to afford college. I'd also limit how much a college can charge because it isn't as expensive as they'd like to make it out to be.

 

How do you plan to force companies who make over $10mm to limit pay to $4mm?  And if it's a private sector company, what right does anyone have to tell them what to do with their earnings?   It's no different than saying "nobody needs a >$1500 computer... we will put a limit of $1,500 on computer spending and the rest will go to the poor and homeless".  It's impossible to implement.  Not to mention that communism has been tried and it fails every time.  We may as well advocate feudalism or oligarchy.

 

And same for colleges - how do you limit what they can charge?  And how is that fair?  If a college wants to charge $100,000 a year - that's their business, isn't it?  I mean, nobody is required to go there and pay that money.   There are tons of state schools that charge way less, and lots of schools that will give grants to encourage students to go there.  Why shouldn't students shop for college the way they would shop for PC parts - doing research and buying what they can afford and what will give them a ROI.

[Corp666]

To some degree that is sort of true but at least it goes back into the economy, Whereas when people have millions upon billions of dollars and most of it lie in either a domestic bank or a foreign bank and it hurts the economy -- Shopping local also helps the economy, if the US cut the Military budget by 10% there would be more in the pot for social programs but to pay of the US debt every US citizen would have to pay about $57,254.81 to pay of the total debt of the US which is (As of 8 Jan 2015 is $18,098,246,253,000) and most of the debt that the US owes is to Social Security. Another great way of making money is to legalize Cannabis/Marijuana for recreational use as it has yielded Colorado more than they had anticipated. His proposal is a good step but it's not going far enough for higher education. Though I find it hard to see this country being anything great nor was it ever really, I know odd I was born and grew up in the US and I don't have the ridiculous sense of egotism and nationalism/patriotism that is found in many Americans of course I must say it's better than a lot of third world countries in terms of health, etc. but it comes at a cost that almost makes life comparable to that of a third world nation of course not as bad though this country has the corruption, and violence of a third world nation but it lacks the visible poverty. I would much rather live in France, Sweden, Iceland, Germany or the Netherlands as these countries have exemplary qualities of life and so much more that the US lacks or can't see that it needs to fix, in other words I feel that if the bible belt got what it wanted since/during Civil War times and maybe a lot more could get done for those who actually want to make things better for the people not the wealthy or if Justin Trudeau's party gets majority this year maybe then what's left of the US can annex into Canada.

 

How do you figure that someone with "millions or billions of dollars" sitting in a bank hurts the economy?  The money is not stacked in $100 bills in the basement.  We have a federal reserve fractional banking system.  The assets of a bank are loaned out to other people.  Even if Bill Gates parks $10 billion in Citibank, that money is not out of circulation - it's loaned out, invested and circulates through the economy.

 

Why does the USA need more social programs - and what programs are you referring to, specifically?  The federal deficit averaged over $1 trillion the past 5 years... or 1,000 billion dollars.  If we cut military spending (which is around 18% of all spending), that would save about $70 billion.  We would need another 930 billion on top of that just to get back to break even.  

 

Not to mention 50% of our entire spending is already on social programs... how much more do we need and where does the money come from?

 

We also spend more on education than any other nation, but get much worse results.  The answer to our crappy education system isn't more spending - we've already proven that doesn't work.

As far as life in the USA almost being comparable to a third world nation - what third world or even second world nations have you visited personally that you would say offer a quality of life similar to the USA?  I've visited about 35 countries and haven't seen anywhere with a quality of life equal to ours.  

[Corp666]

Erm he's out next year or well the beginning of 2017, I really hope Bernie Sanders wins but Hillary would be okay too. Many jobs require a degree as a simple High School diploma does not go as far as you might think. I guess if privatized education is really what this cesspit wants I guess making the loans forgivable can at least help. Communism only fails when it's under an authoritarian regime which does tend to follow Communism, I'm not saying Communism is good - Mixed Market Socialism is much better. I find it interesting how people fretted and fretted how Obama was going to take away our rights and really none of that has happened (Scare tactics much?) I must say both the republican and democratic parties are both corrupt and corporate sponsored so really it doesn't matter. Trickle effect economy or "Reaganomics" has not benefited the US by much if not at all and only hurt the other 99%. 

 

 

What is "this cesspit" you refer to?  We don't have privatized education - we have a private and a public education system and people can choose.  One of the problems is that people are choosing expensive schools in areas of study that will never get them an income level to pay the debt they take on.  It's like buying a Ferrari to commute to your job at Burger King.  Supply and demand is an economic fact - and it's true in education as well.  The large supply of cheap money has made education costs skyrocket.  Making loans non-dischargeable in bankruptcy and guaranteed by the feds has increased costs massively as well.  

 

And how do you know communism only fails under an authoritarian regime?  Where has communism worked, ever?  It hasn't.  So how would we know it works as long as it's not under an authoritarian regime?  We are largely dealing with human nature... and human nature is that if people do not see value for their efforts, then their effort won't be given.  I've traveled extensively in the former Soviet Union and seen this with my own eyes - including when they lived under communism and after.  Nobody cared about working hard because there was no benefit to the individual for doing so.  They had a saying... "I pretend to work... you pretend to pay me".  Communism doesn't work under any circumstances and it can't be implemented except by an authoritarian regime, because people are never going to willingly and voluntarily give up their wealth, production and benefits of their work so that someone else can have it instead.  

 

You'll also have a difficult time showing that 99% of people have not prospered massively during the last 30 or so years.  Presidents don't control the economy, they have a minimal influence at best - which is why it's equally incorrect to say Reaganomics was bad as it is to say Obama is responsible for the economic disaster of 2008-2010.

[AlwaysFSX]

How do you plan to force companies who make over $10mm to limit pay to $4mm?  And if it's a private sector company, what right does anyone have to tell them what to do with their earnings?   It's no different than saying "nobody needs a >$1500 computer... we will put a limit of $1,500 on computer spending and the rest will go to the poor and homeless".  It's impossible to implement.  Not to mention that communism has been tried and it fails every time.  We may as well advocate feudalism or oligarchy.

 

And same for colleges - how do you limit what they can charge?  And how is that fair?  If a college wants to charge $100,000 a year - that's their business, isn't it?  I mean, nobody is required to go there and pay that money.   There are tons of state schools that charge way less, and lots of schools that will give grants to encourage students to go there.  Why shouldn't students shop for college the way they would shop for PC parts - doing research and buying what they can afford and what will give them a ROI.

"You can't make them."

A government makes you not do a lot of things, tacking on a few more is entirely possible, you just don't want it to happen.

[Tocsin_786]

the thing i dont understand is how university can manage to be sooo darn expensive its insane, back when my teacher went to stonybrook university 4 credits cost him 600 bucks, now 1 credit can cost you upwards of 1k. like wtf happened. 

[handymanshandle]

 

 I meant higher education (College/University) is mostly privatized, of course not all of it. Also the "cesspit" claim was an over exaggeration and an allusion to how the US has become under republican control. Communism does have it's weaknesses but eh Mixed Market or just simply Market Socialism is probably better.

If you look at Sweden citizens can go to college for free. Trickle down economics assumes that wealthy people will invest back into their country but to save a pretty penny on labor cost and maybe even taxes they send their work/operations overseas with the intention on still making money in the US market and if globalization is to continue it should be to benefit humanity not the wealthy. Also what I meant that the US is almost like a third world nation is in terms of "Inequality, Healthcare, Infrastructure, Healthcare", etc. (from: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/six-ways-america-is-like-a-third-world-country-20140305)

 

Anyways here is a video from John Oliver diving into the Income Inequality of the US.