Let's grow up. Discussion - Apple - General Fanboyism (Not answered by the way.)

[Paramour85]

I used to be a fan of Apple, roughly 5-6 years back, and in some regards (okay, one regard) today I still am. Apple is basically responsible for the touchscreen smartphone era, and the same goes for tablets. Words cannot describe how pleased I am with that. I had an iPhone 4 and an iPad 1, then purchased an iPhone 5 when my iPhone 4 was on its death bed. My favorite "feature" with those devices was the outstanding stability; previously, I'd owned phones and handheld devices that were so riddled with glitches and bugs that I ended up prematurely ended my cellular contract and ate the early cancellation fee just so I could sign up with AT&T and get an iPhone, because of the stability.

 

Shortly after I received my iPhone 5, I landed a job in IT, and almost immediately realized how extremely closed Apple's business model actually is; I could do very few things I needed/wanted to do with my iPhone without jailbreaking it. I really REALLY hate closed models. If you want to see me rage, point me toward anything with restrictions pertaining to individual use - the FCC/Net Neutrality fiasco, monthly bandwidth caps (for both broadband internet as well as cellular data), people driving 20mph under the speed limit, etc. Closed models are counter-intuitive to progress and innovation, and as far as I'm concerned, are outright idiotic.

 

So, really, do I hate Apple? No. Do I refuse to use their products? No, I have a 160GB iPod Classic that I keep plugged into my car for music (I'll pass on a monthly fee for satellite radio, and I don't care about any AM/FM commercials/talk shows that take up 90% of the airwaves). iPod's are the best MP3 devices out there, and they work for my needs.

 

Apple is obviously doing well as a company. I just hate their business model. And their hipster naming scheme is pretty dumb (Time Machine is a ridiculous name for backup software). And iCloud is a bit of a joke.

[JamGorby]

Lets all grow up....

This thread exists....




Does not compute. 

[mr moose]

I've been calling apple for what it is since I signed up to these forums, the biggest problem is that some people just don't like hearing the truth.

[SSOB]

I used to be a fan of Apple, roughly 5-6 years back, and in some regards (okay, one regard) today I still am. Apple is basically responsible for the touchscreen smartphone era, and the same goes for tablets. Words cannot describe how pleased I am with that. I had an iPhone 4 and an iPad 1, then purchased an iPhone 5 when my iPhone 4 was on its death bed. My favorite "feature" with those devices was the outstanding stability; previously, I'd owned phones and handheld devices that were so riddled with glitches and bugs that I ended up prematurely ended my cellular contract and ate the early cancellation fee just so I could sign up with AT&T and get an iPhone, because of the stability.

 

Shortly after I received my iPhone 5, I landed a job in IT, and almost immediately realized how extremely closed Apple's business model actually is; I could do very few things I needed/wanted to do with my iPhone without jailbreaking it. I really REALLY hate closed models. If you want to see me rage, point me toward anything with restrictions pertaining to individual use - the FCC/Net Neutrality fiasco, monthly bandwidth caps (for both broadband internet as well as cellular data), people driving 20mph under the speed limit, etc. Closed models are counter-intuitive to progress and innovation, and as far as I'm concerned, are outright idiotic.

 

So, really, do I hate Apple? No. Do I refuse to use their products? No, I have a 160GB iPod Classic that I keep plugged into my car for music (I'll pass on a monthly fee for satellite radio, and I don't care about any AM/FM commercials/talk shows that take up 90% of the airwaves). iPod's are the best MP3 devices out there, and they work for my needs.

 

Apple is obviously doing well as a company. I just hate their business model. And their hipster naming scheme is pretty dumb (Time Machine is a ridiculous name for backup software). And iCloud is a bit of a joke.

Have wou watched WWDC2014, i did and apple is moving to a more ''Open'' business model while google is doing the opposite locking you down in their google eco system Atm. Anyway, you at least used some good arguments and yes i do agree that they are trying to lock you in to their eco-system, does that mean that each individual unit cannot function withouth one or another, absolutely not, it's just more convenient.

[SSOB]

I've been calling apple for what it is since I signed up to these forums, the biggest problem is that some people just don't like hearing the truth.

And that is?

[mr moose]

And that is?

it's all horses for courses,  you weigh up a products suitability for the given task and buy the cheapest one on offer.

 

EDIT: that and that they are just an average IT company no better or worse than the others.

[SSOB]

it's all horses for courses,  you weigh up a products suitability for the given task and buy the cheapest one on offer.

Ok so you are willing to survive on bread water and fruit instead of eating a nice steak and fries or having a nice desert so now and then.

 

nevermind

[mr moose]

Ok so you are willing to survive on bread water and fruit instead of eating a nice steak and fries or having a nice desert so now and then.

what?

[SSOB]

Nevermind 

[Infinite85]

Have wou watched WWDC2014, i did and apple is moving to a more ''Open'' business model while google is doing the opposite locking you down in their google eco system Atm. Anyway, you at least used some good arguments and yes i do agree that they are trying to lock you in to their eco-system, does that mean that each individual unit cannot function withouth one or another, absolutely not, it's just more convenient.

Google moving in the direction they are really won't be an issue for me, since I use a lot of Google's services anyway. With Apple, though, not only are they trying to lock you into their ecosystem, they basically tell you "You can use this however you want, as long as you use it how we want you to." Not to mention, their UI is very non-user-friendly once you get past the basics. I stupidly formatted my hard drive and ended up losing some very important documents that had been backed up from my phone, and the only way I could recover them is by using a third party iCloud recovery program to get what I needed, because not only did iCloud basically break my ability to restore items to my phone, I was forced to do a full restore, rather than selectively choose what I needed.

 

At least for the time being, Google is pretty lax on how their products can be used, i.e. not having an extremely nitpicky approval system for their Google Play store, as opposed to Apple setting very specific demands and requirements for apps submitted to the app store.

[Yummychickenblue]

I also agree with @CreepersCrawlers' post. Before this thread (@Yummychickenblue may recall this) I was a complete Apple hater in every sense imaginable, everywhere I went I brought my Apple hate module with me. After reading this thread, I have learned that they aren't as bad as I thought and appreciate Apple a little more. Thanks, @SSOB.

I can vouche for this. I try to not hate on them because they do actually make some really nice stuff even if they are using some dirty marketing tactics.

[mooseducks86]

I don't hate apple (much), I hate the people who fanboy about apple and claim apple is the best when it absolutely is NOT.

My rant for the day: (not from your reply, I like the way you structured your statement, although I would have added, that anyone claiming that Windows or Linux or anything else is the best is in the same boat. If there was a best, I think the whole world would be on the same page.)

 

The way I see it (my opinion, not EVERYONES) is that when people are attacking Apple for what appears to be no reason, there is good reason to defend Apple or at least call that person out for reasoning. This isn't because you hurt my ego (ow...), but for people out there looking to forums to help others, to be informed, and not to prove that anything they don't like is garbage. Just opening one's mouth and spurting out the first thing that comes to mind without doing a little researching or testing prevents others from looking into their own truth. I see a lot more people hating on Apple online than being "fanboys". If there is one "fanboy" on here for every 5 people who write Apple off with no justification... why do so many people support the haters post and not the "fanboy". I'm sure the fanboy at least owns several Apple products, I'd believe them over someone who just SAYS they own an Apple product and hate it (Why didn't you return it... or sell it? Something smells fishy). The mindset of calling someone a "fanboy" I believe adds to the prejudice of hating anyone who likes Apple. Not every Apple user is the stereotype you have in your mind.

 

Apples products are not garbage. A lot of R&D goes into them more than quite a few other products, and it used to be a company that only the elite artistic type could afford, but now that just about anybody could afford them, people seem to go crazy if one chooses that. I can't take Tek Syndicate seriously anymore (and no, it's not just them, and it's not anything about them as people or their personalities, it's the biased way he does videos like this: (It's just the freshest example in my mind because I came across the video again yesterday)

 

The reason I was drawn to LinusTechTips and it's community was the way they do their reviews. They will tell you the good and the bad. It's not "Let's just make a video to bash a product" that he doesn't even have sitting next to him!

 

I don't understand why people can't think that some of Apples products are good, and some are bad. If Apple didn't release the iPad and iPhone, we probably wouldn't (or at least not as soon as we did) get other tablets, and android, and kindles. Blackberry might still be the dominant phone on the market. Why didn't we hate blackberry users? And who is confident enough to say Blackberry is still the best and all other phones and environments are garbage?

 

I have not personally used the new Mac Pro, but I know nearly a dozen (only one person I know owns one) who use them at work and love them. I have built a comparable computer for under $3000, but it is WAY bigger, definitely not as stable, and right now there is so much heat in the home office that the CPU has been overheating, and it's not been waking. I had to have my watercooled cpu at factory clock, and now need to go from a midtower to a fulltower (my gtxs were added in the past month, and airflow is severely crimped) If he's making fun of people who spend $3000 on the Mac Pro, and they have $3000 to spend on other hardware, who cares? They're not being elitest, they are spending equal amounts. (By the way, as a pre-built solution like Apples, I haven't seen anything THAT good in specs, performance, reliability and I/O) I could run parallels on a mac pro and use all the autodesk software I want, or I could spend $3500 on a Dell solution for CAD/BIM like  http://www.dell.com/ca/business/p/precision-T3610-workstation/pd?oc=SMP3610W7P007CA&model_id=precision-T3610-workstation

 

Processor

Intel® Xeon® Processor E5-1620 v2 (Quad Core HT, 3.7 GHz Turbo, 10 MB)

Operating System

Windows 7 Professional, 64-bit (Includes Windows 8 Pro license), English

Monitor

Monitor not included

Memory6

16GB7 DDR3 SDRAM at 1866MHz

Hard Drive

1TB 3.5inch Serial ATA (7.200 Rpm) Hard Drive

Video Card

3 GB NVIDIA® Quadro® K4000 (2DP & 1DVI-I) (2DP-DVI & 1DVI-VGA adapter)

Security Software

No Security Software

Warranty

3 Year ProSupport with 3 Year NBD Limited Onsite Service After Remote Diagnosis

Optical Drive

8x Slimline DVD+/-RW Drive

Nothing against Dell, love their support, I replaced a dual Xeon Dell workstation, with a custom build and it beats the pants off it, but Dell is (like Apple) going for great support and stability.

 

PS: Apple and Intel developed Thunderbolt together. So nobody buy Intel, they're obviously all Apple fanboys now. AMD only from now on, they're the only corporation that is there for you and not trying to make money like the evil guys.

 

And for people out there thinking it's their "opinion" that fanboys are evil and Apple is the anti-whatever-you-believe-in, here's a little helpful info from an arguments writing guide from Colorado State University.

 

 

A fact is verifiable. We can determine whether it is true by researching the evidence.

 

An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence.

 

Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values.

 

Another kind of assertion that has no place in serious argumentation is prejudice, a half-baked opinion based on insufficient or unexamined evidence.

http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm

 

If you read through this, or at least the above quote, thank you... I'm not trying to be a dick or a saint. I'm not all for one company or another, I'm for giving everything a fair chance. My mind can change daily, but it's usually based on fact and experience, not hatred, jealousy or anger.

[mooseducks86]

I stupidly formatted my hard drive and ended up losing some very important documents that had been backed up from my phone, and the only way I could recover them is by using a third party iCloud recovery program to get what I needed, because not only did iCloud basically break my ability to restore items to my phone, I was forced to do a full restore, rather than selectively choose what I needed.

 

You could use data recovery software. Or turn on time machine and backup your computer. Or just redownload them from your phone? I don't understand why you had no option except an iCloud recovery program. I've never even heard of those.

 

Prosoft's Data Rescue 3 is by far my favorite data recovery software that I've tried. I (edit: don't) use time machine (so I use it) to recover files and documents that I was SURE I backed up somewhere... but didn't.

 

I also don't believe in using iCloud, or anyother cloud-based service to back up data. My phone uses iCloud for backing up contacts (and only contacts), but they're also backed up on my computer. Cloud services are (in my opinon) meant to be used for convenience, and not security or reliability.

[Infinite85]

You could use data recovery software. Or turn on time machine and backup your computer. Or just redownload them from your phone? I don't understand why you had no option except an iCloud recovery program. I've never even heard of those.

 

Prosoft's Data Rescue 3 is by far my favorite data recovery software that I've tried. I use time machine to recover files and documents that I was SURE I backed up somewhere... but didn't.

 

I also don't believe in using iCloud, or anyother cloud-based service to back up data. My phone uses iCloud for backing up contacts (and only contacts), but they're also backed up on my computer. Cloud services are (in my opinon) meant to be used for convenience, and not security or reliability.

Sorry, I should have clarified. This was after I switched from Apple to Android, and had performed a factory reset on my phone to sell it (still haven't sold it, anyone want a used-for-1-year iPhone 5 with 2 lightning cables and a wall wart?). I thought I had backed up the items I needed to another location, but I hadn't, and I royally screwed myself. The on-my-computer backups I had made were out of date and didn't have what I needed. The only option I had was to download the iCloud backup (can't remember how I did it) and scan the backup file with some third party backup program I found, which let me selectively recover the items I needed. The whole problem was my fault entirely, but the recovery process could - and rightfully should - have been FAR simpler than it was.

 

To expand on it, I've had to work on multiple customers devices that were using some combination of Apple, iCloud, and local backups, and each time they were a complete nightmare to work with. Calendars, contacts, email accounts, etc. out of sync, lost files that were very difficult to recover from backups, etc. I really wish there were an Apple store where I live so they could deal with that nonsense.

[mooseducks86]

To expand on it, I've had to work on multiple customers devices that were using some combination of Apple, iCloud, and local backups, and each time they were a complete nightmare to work with. Calendars, contacts, email accounts, etc. out of sync, lost files that were very difficult to recover from backups, etc. I really wish there were an Apple store where I live so they could deal with that nonsense.

I have an iPhone 4, so if I wanted "genius" support, I'd have to pay. And I'm cheap when it comes to post-warranty support. I'm sure you know more about Android than I do, so you may already know this, but my best friends son had a Galaxy SII that was going wonky, so before restoring it, I found SimpleADB (I think it's called Holo now) that backed up all his stuff. Apparently Kies and another one I found doesn't backup things like texts or something (I don't know). It was the phone and not the software, he ended up buying a Sony Xperia Z2, and I set up all the Google cloud services (His backup was useless because he forgot the archive password he entered for the backup a few months prior), and also have him backing it up with holo regularly. This SHOULD prevent it from happening again, but you only learn to do stuff like that once you've lost something important.

 

A note to any future (or current) Z2 users. The first day he got it, he wanted to try the waterproofness, but apparently the sim card flap wasn't completely shut (he swears it was though) he dipped it in the sink, snapped a pic, and a little while later stopped working. Water had gotten in through the port, and he had to pay something like $250 to replace it even with Bells warranty he purchased (earlier that day). Don't use your personal phone just to prove or disprove a feature! lol

[Builder]

Google moving in the direction they are really won't be an issue for me, since I use a lot of Google's services anyway. With Apple, though, not only are they trying to lock you into their ecosystem, they basically tell you "You can use this however you want, as long as you use it how we want you to." Not to mention, their UI is very non-user-friendly once you get past the basics. I stupidly formatted my hard drive and ended up losing some very important documents that had been backed up from my phone, and the only way I could recover them is by using a third party iCloud recovery program to get what I needed, because not only did iCloud basically break my ability to restore items to my phone, I was forced to do a full restore, rather than selectively choose what I needed.

 

At least for the time being, Google is pretty lax on how their products can be used, i.e. not having an extremely nitpicky approval system for their Google Play store, as opposed to Apple setting very specific demands and requirements for apps submitted to the app store.

And as a result there are thousands of Android viruses and none for iOS. There are even some viruses in the Play store!

[Builder]

-snip-

I agree. Like their whole "Apple never invented anything" video. They're Windows fanboys, just as zealous as Apple fanboys.

[Infinite85]

And as a result there are thousands of Android viruses and none for iOS. There are even some viruses in the Play store!

This is absolutely false. The claim that Apple products are immune to viruses is completely ludicrous. I've had viruses on my iPhone. I've had customers with viruses on their MacBooks and other iOS devices. Just do a search for "iPhone virus" and see how many hits you get regarding methods to remove viruses from iOS devices.

[Builder]

This is absolutely false. The claim that Apple products are immune to viruses is completely ludicrous. I've had viruses on my iPhone. I've had customers with viruses on their MacBooks and other iOS devices. Just do a search for "iPhone virus" and see how many hits you get regarding methods to remove viruses from iOS devices.

I didn't say anything about Macs, though they are infected much less frequently due to a lower overall attack surface.

 

iPhones are a closed ecosystem, that's the point. There are far more Android viruses, and I still have yet to find evidence of an iPhone virus. Source?

[Infinite85]

I didn't say anything about Macs, though they are infected much less frequently due to a lower overall attack surface.

 

iPhones are a closed ecosystem, that's the point. There are far more Android viruses, and I still have yet to find evidence of an iPhone virus. Source?

For starters, common sense. If it's a computer, it's vulnerable to viral infections. Anyone with even a basic understanding of computing systems can tell you this. Even cars are susceptible. And as I mentioned before, do a search for "iPhone virus," "iOS virus" or anything along those lines.

[Builder]

For starters, common sense. If it's a computer, it's vulnerable to viral infections. Anyone with even a basic understanding of computing systems can tell you this. Even cars are susceptible. And as I mentioned before, do a search for "iPhone virus," "iOS virus" or anything along those lines.

I have. I asked you for a source, because as I said, I couldn't find one.

 

Edit: Yes I realize all of that stuff. I'm a greyhat pentester, for christ's sake!

[Infinite85]

I'm not trying to be insulting or demeaning or anything, so I apologize for any offense I may appear to be throwing out.

 

It took me about 3 seconds to find this:

http://www.ibtimes.com/apple-ios-app-store-gets-first-virus-learn-about-app-steals-your-contacts-and-spams-your-friends

 

And there was the report of the NSA silently installing spyware/malware on iPhones. Granted it's not a virus, but it proves that it's possible to infect the phone outside of the app store.

 

Granted, this is for jailbroken phones, which makes it moot, but it exists:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/reddit-users-uncover-new-malware-threat-ios-called-unflod-baby-panda/#!bbG1qZ

 

Lack of proof does not prove nonexistence. And honestly, given Apple's track record that they claim to do things perfectly, I wouldn't be surprised if they swept things under the rug and dealt with other viral infections behind the scenes.

[MatazaNZ]

I don't see why people hate Apple. In mu opinion, it seems to be "cool" to hate on Apple and their products, like CoD. I'm what I would call a tech "harlot" as I've played around with a lot of different devices and OSes, and I can honestly say that I don't dislike any of them. Sure, each of them have different features that work better, or I dislike and think could work better, but that's yo be expected. Everyone has their personal opinion on how things should work. It's the individual's choice as to what device and OS they use. No one should have to justify what they use to appease others. Do I like OSX and iOS? Yes, I do. But I wouldn't personally buy an iPhone or mac, because they don't fit what I need. Not to mention price (aiming mostly at iPhone here). I'm not going to spend $800+ on a phone. But that's because I don't need much from a phone, a $200 phone is good enough for me. If it calls, texts and can access the internet, that's all I need. Again, it's all down to the individual. I would consider a MBP for my IT studies, but I probably won't end up going for it, as I wouldn't need anything more than a document processor, so a Chromebook would do just fine. Apple is a company trying to make their way in the world. Their products appeal to a lot of people. If they don't appeal to you, that's fine, you're entitled to that. But don't sit there hating on Apple because you don't like their products. The same goes the for all ways. If you don't like a specific brand, fine, but don't knock others for liking it.

/rant

Edit: damn did that take a while to type out on my phone...

[mooseducks86]

I have. I asked you for a source, because as I said, I couldn't find one.

 

Edit: Yes I realize all of that stuff. I'm a greyhat pentester, for christ's sake!

 

 

For starters, common sense. If it's a computer, it's vulnerable to viral infections. Anyone with even a basic understanding of computing systems can tell you this. Even cars are susceptible. And as I mentioned before, do a search for "iPhone virus," "iOS virus" or anything along those lines.

Now this was a while ago and just off the top of my head, but there was a GIANT security hole in iphones when they started reading pdfs, people could put malicious code in them... Or any code really. Thats how some of the jailbreaks were installed, you just went to a site, downloaded a pdf on your phone and you were jailbroken. It wasn't a virus, but im sure it could have been exploited by viruses through that hole.

 

I think most hackers are going to target the easiest marks, unless they have a real vendetta against a particular device.

[TheSLSAMG]

My rant for the day: (not from your reply, I like the way you structured your statement, although I would have added, that anyone claiming that Windows or Linux or anything else is the best is in the same boat. If there was a best, I think the whole world would be on the same page.)

 

The way I see it (my opinion, not EVERYONES) is that when people are attacking Apple for what appears to be no reason, there is good reason to defend Apple or at least call that person out for reasoning. This isn't because you hurt my ego (ow...), but for people out there looking to forums to help others, to be informed, and not to prove that anything they don't like is garbage. Just opening one's mouth and spurting out the first thing that comes to mind without doing a little researching or testing prevents others from looking into their own truth. I see a lot more people hating on Apple online than being "fanboys". If there is one "fanboy" on here for every 5 people who write Apple off with no justification... why do so many people support the haters post and not the "fanboy". I'm sure the fanboy at least owns several Apple products, I'd believe them over someone who just SAYS they own an Apple product and hate it (Why didn't you return it... or sell it? Something smells fishy). The mindset of calling someone a "fanboy" I believe adds to the prejudice of hating anyone who likes Apple. Not every Apple user is the stereotype you have in your mind.

 

Apples products are not garbage. A lot of R&D goes into them more than quite a few other products, and it used to be a company that only the elite artistic type could afford, but now that just about anybody could afford them, people seem to go crazy if one chooses that. I can't take Tek Syndicate seriously anymore (and no, it's not just them, and it's not anything about them as people or their personalities, it's the biased way he does videos like this: (It's just the freshest example in my mind because I came across the video again yesterday)

 

The reason I was drawn to LinusTechTips and it's community was the way they do their reviews. They will tell you the good and the bad. It's not "Let's just make a video to bash a product" that he doesn't even have sitting next to him!

 

I don't understand why people can't think that some of Apples products are good, and some are bad. If Apple didn't release the iPad and iPhone, we probably wouldn't (or at least not as soon as we did) get other tablets, and android, and kindles. Blackberry might still be the dominant phone on the market. Why didn't we hate blackberry users? And who is confident enough to say Blackberry is still the best and all other phones and environments are garbage?

 

I have not personally used the new Mac Pro, but I know nearly a dozen (only one person I know owns one) who use them at work and love them. I have built a comparable computer for under $3000, but it is WAY bigger, definitely not as stable, and right now there is so much heat in the home office that the CPU has been overheating, and it's not been waking. I had to have my watercooled cpu at factory clock, and now need to go from a midtower to a fulltower (my gtxs were added in the past month, and airflow is severely crimped) If he's making fun of people who spend $3000 on the Mac Pro, and they have $3000 to spend on other hardware, who cares? They're not being elitest, they are spending equal amounts. (By the way, as a pre-built solution like Apples, I haven't seen anything THAT good in specs, performance, reliability and I/O) I could run parallels on a mac pro and use all the autodesk software I want, or I could spend $3500 on a Dell solution for CAD/BIM like  http://www.dell.com/ca/business/p/precision-T3610-workstation/pd?oc=SMP3610W7P007CA&model_id=precision-T3610-workstation

 

Processor

Intel® Xeon® Processor E5-1620 v2 (Quad Core HT, 3.7 GHz Turbo, 10 MB)

Operating System

Windows 7 Professional, 64-bit (Includes Windows 8 Pro license), English

Monitor

Monitor not included

Memory6

16GB7 DDR3 SDRAM at 1866MHz

Hard Drive

1TB 3.5inch Serial ATA (7.200 Rpm) Hard Drive

Video Card

3 GB NVIDIA® Quadro® K4000 (2DP & 1DVI-I) (2DP-DVI & 1DVI-VGA adapter)

Security Software

No Security Software

Warranty

3 Year ProSupport with 3 Year NBD Limited Onsite Service After Remote Diagnosis

Optical Drive

8x Slimline DVD+/-RW Drive

Nothing against Dell, love their support, I replaced a dual Xeon Dell workstation, with a custom build and it beats the pants off it, but Dell is (like Apple) going for great support and stability.

 

PS: Apple and Intel developed Thunderbolt together. So nobody buy Intel, they're obviously all Apple fanboys now. AMD only from now on, they're the only corporation that is there for you and not trying to make money like the evil guys.

 

And for people out there thinking it's their "opinion" that fanboys are evil and Apple is the anti-whatever-you-believe-in, here's a little helpful info from an arguments writing guide from Colorado State University.

 

http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm

 

If you read through this, or at least the above quote, thank you... I'm not trying to be a dick or a saint. I'm not all for one company or another, I'm for giving everything a fair chance. My mind can change daily, but it's usually based on fact and experience, not hatred, jealousy or anger.

This guy. This fucking guy. God damn...

 

You're brilliant.