If you pirate a film, it's the ISP's fault, not yours

[sof006]

I suppose if a robber uses a bus to escape, it's the bus company's fault.

Yep it is actually. If the bus driver lets the robber onto the bus. Unless the robber forces the bus driver in anyway.

[Albatross]

Weapons in general are a different issue.

There's intent in the making and design (design) of a weapon.

 

A crowbar has legitimate uses, a gun, as much fun as it can be to shoot at targets (I know it is), ultimately is made to shoot living things (indeed why would you shoot something else).

 

If I can avoid killing another living sentient being I'll do it. (including what you would call meat)

 

Anyone could use a crowbar as an effective killing machine just as much as a gun. I find it far more terrifying than a gun since crowbars are literally accessible to everyone.

 

You know you can own a gun and avoid killing another sentient being, right? Unless, of course, you wouldn't even shoot a guy mugging you or attempting to kill you then I suppose you shouldn't own a gun in the first place...

[The Crazed Child]

Unless the robber forces the bus driver in anyway.

Which is usually the case in that kind of situation

[Albatross]

Yep it is actually. If the bus driver lets the robber onto the bus. Unless the robber forces the bus driver in anyway.

 

Maybe if he's an accomplice.

 

I find it hard to imagine a robber announcing he's a robber and the driver letting him aboard willingly.

[ShadowCaptain]

IT WAS GOD

 

he put us here!

 

 

Seems a perfectly legit argument

[aEi1aesainee2]

Anyone could use a crowbar as an effective killing machine just as much as a gun. I find it far more terrifying than a gun since crowbars are literally accessible to everyone.

 

You know you can own a gun and avoid killing another sentient being, right? Unless, of course, you wouldn't even shoot a guy mugging you or attempting to kill you then I suppose you shouldn't own a gun in the first place...

I know I can avoid killing with it.

I'm discussing the intent, the design, not the actual use of it.

No I wouldn't kill the person killing me, killing my mother, or my girlfriend.

 

It is just vendetta.

 

I shot at practice targets, it was fun, but I also tried bow and arrow and found it even more fun.

I practiced fencing several years, I wouldn't use my sword against someone with the intent to harm said someone.

 

I endorse legal ownership of guns (and weapons in general, I still have my sword from when I fenced). But I would strongly encourage more learning around them.

 

Switzerland is a very good example of what the US could be. Everyone there has a gun (there's more weapons than people) but there is absolutely no violence done with them.

It proves the problem is not the guns, it's the will behind the gun and the idea of gun.

[AndThenThereWas1]

[EChondo]

I can see where he is coming from in a certain way.

 

I think he means that if the car is the solely responsible for the killing/damages, then the car's manufacturer is at fault. For example, you're driving down a hill and your breaks go out, you can't stop and you run over someone before crashing. The driver SHOULD NOT be at fault for that, the car manufacturer should be.

 

Now, with the whole "ISP is at fault" thing, I can see that if he means in the context that ISP's should be shutting down pirates web access and blocking torrenting websites ASAP, because they are allowing people to commit such things, but that's pretty far fetched.

[Albatross]

I know I can avoid killing with it.

I'm discussing the intent, the design, not the actual use of it.

No I wouldn't kill the person killing me, killing my mother, or my girlfriend.

 

It is just vendetta.

 

I shot at practice targets, it was fun, but I also tried bow and arrow and found it even more fun.

I practiced fencing several years, I wouldn't use my sword against someone with the intent to harm said someone.

 

I endorse legal ownership of guns (and weapons in general, I still have my sword from when I fenced). But I would strongly encourage more learning around them.

 

Switzerland is a very good example of what the US could be. Everyone there has a gun (there's more weapons than people) but there is absolutely no violence done with them.

It proves the problem is not the guns, it's the will behind the gun and the idea of gun.

 

Honestly, you would try to save your own life or someone you love if it meant killing the other person? What do you think of people who do use guns in self defense, if I may ask?

 

Oh I wasn't trying to imply you thought that way, I was just saying anything can be used as a weapon to take another life. Just me rambling, I suppose.

 

America isn't perfect so I definitely advocate well thought out change but I will admit I don't know much about violence and the like in Switzerland.

[mr moose]

I think they have a good point. Though the car analogy they used doesnt work at all.

 

Imagine if you and another person are driving in a car. You are sat in the passenger seat, and the other person is driving the car. The driver of the car takes instructions from you, and follows them without question, and does only what you tell them to do. What if the car hit and killed someone. Who would be at fault?

 

Somebody is at fault when it comes to downloading copyrighted material illegaly, and its up to the courts to decide who is at fault.

 

Are you insinuating that ISP specifically give instructions to download pirated material? 

 

 

 

Now, with the whole "ISP is at fault" thing, I can see that if he means in the context that ISP's should be shutting down pirates web access and blocking torrenting websites ASAP, because they are allowing people to commit such things, but that's pretty far fetched.

 

I think all he is trying to say is that the ISP is technically an accessory to the crime because they are providing the means, they log all connections so (unless you use a VPN) they know if you have visited TPB and what connections were made after that.

[Ras]

[Gonk]

.

[xXxYOLOxSWAGxXx_420BlazeIt]

Are you insinuating that ISP specifically give instructions to download pirated material? 

 

 

 

I think all he is trying to say is that the ISP is technically an accessory to the crime because they are providing the means, they log all connections so (unless you use a VPN) they know if you have visited TPB and what connections were made after that.

No. The other way around.

 

The ISP is acting like they cant control what their customers do. They can argue that it isnt their job to police what their users do, and the people suing for copyright infringements can argue that it is. It is up to the courts to decide either way.

 

I think if the ISP was made liable for copyright infringements then there would be a huge reduction in it.

[Derangel]

I can see where he is coming from in a certain way.

 

I think he means that if the car is the solely responsible for the killing/damages, then the car's manufacturer is at fault. For example, you're driving down a hill and your breaks go out, you can't stop and you run over someone before crashing. The driver SHOULD NOT be at fault for that, the car manufacturer should be.

 

Now, with the whole "ISP is at fault" thing, I can see that if he means in the context that ISP's should be shutting down pirates web access and blocking torrenting websites ASAP, because they are allowing people to commit such things, but that's pretty far fetched.

 

That analogy doesn't work either. Brakes wear out naturally. They don't last forever and they need to be replaced. It is the responsibility of the driver to make sure the breaks on their car are in good working order.

[aEi1aesainee2]

Honestly, you would try to save your own life or someone you love if it meant killing the other person? What do you think of people who do use guns in self defense, if I may ask?

 

Oh I wasn't trying to imply you thought that way, I was just saying anything can be used as a weapon to take another life. Just me rambling, I suppose.

 

America isn't perfect so I definitely advocate well thought out change but I will admit I don't know much about violence and the like in Switzerland.

 

Well it's a quite simple situation : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

And more precisely this paragraph :

Government statistics for the year 2010^[19] records 40 homicides involving firearms, out of the 53 cases of homicide in 2010.

The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population was 0.70, which is one of the lowest in the world.^[20] The annual rate of homicide by guns per 100,000 population was 0.52.^[21]

 

For easy comparison, on the right side of the article there are the links to the same page concerning various states.

The rate of firearm deaths in the United States (14.24 per 100,000)

 

And for the record, I'll say it again, there are more private owned guns than people in Switzerland.

[Lays]

Some people are so stupid...

It's not even worth discussing anymore.

 

Heck,even the example with the car they made is wrong...

 

 

If the car has faulty parts, and the company knows it has faulty parts but didn't fix it, and those said cars end up failing and killing people, that's understandable imo

 

Similar to a drug that is released that doesn't say all of the side effects, and people get diseases, illnesses from it, or die, etc.

[FullNuclearBreakfast]

I guess he blames all the gun massacres on the gun makers.

I guess he blames any road related deaths on the automotive manufacturers.

I suppose anyone who drowns, it's waters fault.

I guess people who die of sun cancer, must be the suns fault. 

I guess he exists, must be his mums fault (oh wait haha).

Or you could just go right to the source of all bad things ever: VIDEO GAMES

[Nineshadow]

If the car has faulty parts, and the company knows it has faulty parts but didn't fix it, and those said cars end up failing and killing people, that's understandable imo

 

Similar to a drug that is released that doesn't say all of the side effects, and people get diseases, illnesses from it, or die, etc.

Oh,then that is fine.

[deviant88]

So if i copy something without paying thats never gonna be avaible to buy in my country its still stealing? /logic

 

I reserve my right to entertainment free or not because i say so,i dont live long enough to wait for corporations to make proper business,ill help myself with some internet and torrents k ?

 

Plus why people sitll pirate movies? the quality of cam records is stupid i havent touched a movie in years they suck both content cheap hollywood stuff and crap quality...years ago might have been a legit complain about pirates,right now its silly they dont offer any 1080p of their shows/movies in the FullHD era yet they complain people pirate 240p camcorder movies,couldnt care less.

 

And before blaming ISP all corporations and idiots need to learn how internet works,it provides access to a world wide web of computers,we can share files and iformation freely,unless its communist china or NK,in which case is not internet anymore.

Also not to mention you can take this example,kind of extreme but its legit: i buy dvd movie or rent(suppose they exist) i rip it off with software,then i make my own sharing program without use of torrent, i encrypt the content and share it with my friends and they do the same when they buy a movie.Well well isnt that the same as if we gather and watch it togheter while paying once?still bad for business but their fault they dont expand business and have different price for each country,how can you think you can sell me a BD movie of less than 2hours that i only watch once anyway for 20-30$ in a country where the minimum income is 200$? just because you do it in 'merica doesnt mean thats how it should be everywhere.Adapt or shut the hell up and enjoy pirate era.Id be glad to pay for each new movie online stream 2$ full HD at least subbed,that i can watch once.

[Andrew48]

[mr moose]

So does that mean if I go to the sunday market and by a pirate copy on disc, it is the fault of the market organiser, the company that made the disc, the man who copied it, the company that wrote the copy software, the council whos street allowed me to get to the market or my boss for giving me enough money in my pay packet to make the purchase?

[rentaspoon]

How does no one understand the example he's basicly saying that the ISPs are providing you an service that you access even though its illegal and because the aren't stopping you from using it they are responsible.

Sort like entrapment.

Better example would be like laying out drugs on a table in a locked room and you give the key to a junkie at rehab, you put him in that room so he can do whatever he wants but you didn't do anything to stop using the drugs expect send a letter telling him he could get in trouble.

[mr moose]

And the original argument was lost in all the analogies.  :blink: 

[Misanthrope]

How does no one understand the example he's basicly saying that the ISPs are providing you an service that you access even though its illegal and because the aren't stopping you from using it they are responsible.

Sort like entrapment.

Better example would be like laying out drugs on a table in a locked room and you give the key to a junkie at rehab, you put him in that room so he can do whatever he wants but you didn't do anything to stop using the drugs expect send a letter telling him he could get in trouble.

 

No, it would be like blaming the city for putting said addict patient in a city where drugs exists. The city after all provides roads and walkways that give you access to citizens who sell drugs, they're responsible for drug addiction because they created roads...

[aEi1aesainee2]

No, it would be like blaming the city for putting said addict patient in a city where drugs exists. The city after all provides roads and walkways that give you access to citizens who sell drugs, they're responsible for drug addiction because they created roads...

 

And now I'm wondering, who created the "road" ?

I mean, at the beginning, we were just walking, and some point a path became a road, but how in the history did it happen ? It must have happened in many places around the same time I guess...