Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Blackraven1]

In regards to the testing inaccuracies, I knew that this was a problem, but I didn't realize the extent of the issues until I watched this video. All I can hope for is that LMG is able to improve in the future. As for the Billit Labs situation, that is completely unacceptable. I'm not even sure how LMG could fix that at this point, considering that they already auctioned off the prototype at LTX.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Blackraven1
Adding my thoughts on what LMG did to Billit Labs.

[Gokul_P]

Asus sponserd all lmg events for ages i dont thing asus sposnering this year ltx has anything to do with garry being on the lab team or the motherboard issues and some people worked at other companies isnt that a normal thing. And i dont see any problem (if and only if he did disclosing that in every laptop video) that linus is invested in framework or selling noctua edition screwdrivers. Framework had a great idea that is accepted by basically everyone and supporting a company that genuvinely make a good product that is repairable and upgradable is an absolute win. And the mouse situvation if you are putting protective film cover the sensor  or put it in a bag like logitech does no one will forget to take out of the bag before using it you need to make your product usable for the dumbest person alive. The inaccuracy of results is mildly concerning and the ability to edit out video without the already watched people getting notified (youtube community post needed to be done atleast but youtube doesnt push those if it has links to your video so if youtube is doing the edit thing publically should put a special community post that will redirects to the video and push that to already watched people only). 

 

The major issue is Water block is really messed up and need to be the main topic for this weaks wanshow. First tested on improper hardware waterblocks as far as i know never worked with anything other than what they designed to auctioning off the thing even when they asked back that their best prototype this is shamefull this is the real issue even if everything else can be considerd silly mistakes or opps thos is not that need a clear explanation on how all of this happend and if any the video must be removed and pay the company properly linus knows how much a early prototype cost incomparison to real deal + the damage done to their reputation(if the accusations are real they can go to court) 

[Alexeygridnev1993]

2 minutes ago, YoungBlade said:

I do have to wonder why they don't pay someone to fact check their reviews before they go live

Good question. On one of the latest WAN show, Linus and Luke went into a lengthy discussion about how difficult it is to fact check things and blablabla... Except that it's not. You need just one thorough and punctual person whose full-time job would be to fact-check every script before the video is shot. And if that slows down the process of the video production... well, then the process should be slowed down to make sure the quality remains high.

[Blademaster91]

4 minutes ago, Zato80 said:

I didn’t get that from Steve at all, you could see the reluctance he had in making the video ……. let’s not forget who took the swing at GN.

An engineer from the LTT labs recently also took a swing at GN saying the labs does better benchmark testing, it wasn't said in public however things like that shouldn't be said at all because you never know if someone is recording.

5 minutes ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

Having watched the entire video alot of the criticism is genuine however some of the others should have been asked privately before airing things publically.

 

Everyone has noticed the errors, even Linus, who mentioned he missed the errors caught by early releases in Vessell. He discussed community moderators and a bug bounty taken out of the LMG team bonus pot.   Linus is clearly ideating before implementing a concrete solution.

 

The Copper Water Cooler, accusing a company of criminal theft without validation of what happened can be result in legal action.  This is a private conversation, first, then go public.

 

Framework investment, brah, Linus has done nothing wrong, he has gone beyond legal discloure.   Find me a pro right to repair laptop with the latest hardware that supports linux and windows out the box.

 

Attacks on the community is bonkers.  That was completely unneccesary.

A bug bounty is an interesting solution, but I feel like introducing payment into finding video errors would only create a bias of paid viewers deciding whether or not to point out "bugs" in videos. I've seen video comment threads of people defending LTT over errors not being a big deal, when IMO a channel as large as LTT should be factually accurate as possible.

 

IMO the copper water cooler thing needs to go public, selling the block off at an auction instead of returning it is unacceptable, and it essentially could ruin the company as that was their best example, and if they can't afford legal action then LTT gets away with stealing product.

 

I'm fine with the Framework investment, but I think someone besides Linus needs to script and review laptops, even though the investment was technically not LMG as a company, Linus as a reviewer still has a bias towards Framework when reviewing another brand of laptop. It would be like having an investment in a car company then reviewing another brand of car, there is still a financial interest there.

[A_Mediocre_Kangaroo_Farmer]

Just now, Skipple said:

Accusing someone/a company of a "subconscious bias" should follow with evidence of the bias, which I failed to see. There is a potential for conflict of interested. Accusations of bias, even subconscious, require evidence. 

 

Following Steve's logic, his entire video is riddled with subconscious bias, as LTT is a competitor it GN. 

the argument LTT fanboys use when defending Linus' OBVIOUS conflict of interest framework investment is that as long as he's being factual it doesn't matter. Would you say GN is being factual in their assessment of LMG's deviation from accuracy, ethics and responsibility?

[Tajl3r]

WELL when i see a murder i can say simple murder murder .

gn is right

 

[the9thdude]

5 minutes ago, Zato80 said:

Absolutely feel disgusted by the Billet Labs story, Linus has some major apologies to make.

This is going to require more than an apology, I feel the only solution here is replacement of the missing hardware, compensation to Billet Labs for their lost time, to accompany the apology. Additionally, the LMG needs to do a full on hot wash of their entire video/labs production process then establish with us, their community, what their standards are going forward and how they will meet those standards. It should also include a public statement to all manufacturers and vendors about how their products will be handled going forward and what those standards are. Following that, a written version should be maintained on these forums and the Linus Media Group website for both their community and professional standards.

 

I love LMG's content, but GN really highlighted how much trust I have put in the company and have handwaved what, anecdotally, looked like one-off issues but are instead a pattern. Given that GN just randomly pulled videos and found factual errors with them without much effort, it highlights that the entire LTT/Labs process needs to be changed. I don't know if that means less videos, more people, or even a smaller scope, but something needs to change and I think it's fair to have a proper response to this by WAN show this week.

[rcarlos243]

That waterblock review from LTT is truly messed up and misleading and Linus should be ashamed of himself.

 

1) refused to return prototype at request of maker, maker incurs financial losses making the prototype they will not see again

 

2) sold prototype that could be reversed engineered and further damage the company if someone else manufactures it

 

3) knowingly torpedoed the start-up's name and reputation with the video about a 3090 Ti waterblock not working on a 4090 video card, which can hinder future sales. but also open up the avenue for the buyer of the prototype to resell a reverse engineered version under a new name while the billet name is sullied by the review.

 

 

Fuck up does not even begin to describe how horrid that situation is.

 

[Thaldor]

That Billet Lab thing is just really FUCKED UP, like how the hell a prototype can end up being auctioned off when it has been asked to be returned? And the whole review thing and Linuses "normal" WAN show explaining of "nothing matter but still everything matters but this doesn't matter because I say so" on top of that... This takes the crown from "No one else respects their warranties so I don't even want to make warranty promises" (where my point was exactly that "I just don't trust you, bro").

 

I won't be nitpicking around the numbers but I kind of knew that the Labs won't change that LTT is entertainment, not unbiased, hard-on facts and testing channel that will make sure their data is true and will post the video even if the sponsor pulls out because they didn't like the results. Those aren't the only times LTT videos have had problems and they won't be the last ones and I would believe LMG won't be changing their actions towards pushing utter bullshit and not officially and clearly owning it, the days later comment that will be pinned week later will be the standard.

 

I strongly agree with GN on that LMG should start to take more time with the videos. I do not underline that LMG would be intentionally bad with the facts but just that the people working don't have enough time to really do their job. I could understand if we were talking about some garage channel rushing videos out to please the algorithm to try to make the couple bucks but LMG level professional media company, unacceptable. The amount of videos doesn't matter if that translates into videos having factual problems and when the videos have factual problems, the "We send it to labs for testing" is just a bad joke. Actually I don't know does the labs really change anything on this front, if they are given the same amount of time as the writers and then the rest of the production, I am not a single bit surprised that there's problems with the data, include into that the "we run every test again" and you have a huge pile of problems incoming and Linus "trust me, bro" Sebastian presenting it as the truth for one of the biggest tech audiences there is and the sad part is, I cannot even trust that meaningful part of that audience will do their own homework and figure out the parts where time and money ended for the video.

 

But get your popcorns ready for the next WAN show because it's probably coming enough spices to salt and pepper everyone's popcorns.

[Skipple]

8 minutes ago, A_Mediocre_Kangaroo_Farmer said:

Would you say GN is being factual in their assessment of LMG's deviation from accuracy, ethics and responsibility?

You are asking if GN is being objective to a subjective topic. I'm not sure how to answer that. I don't think Steve's arguments were in bad faith and I don't think they were inaccurate. 

Linus and LMG very obviously have multiple conflict of interests. Conflicts of interested can lead to biased outcomes without proper guardrails and ethical commitments. 

Steve used the term "subjective bias" in the video without showing evidence of said bias, which I believe is out of pocket. 

[idiocracy]

44 min later. And i have to say that Steve made an excellent video. I mean, he is pretty spot on.
Notice even how Luke during the wan show said, that maybe they should've just tested the thing on the thing it was designed for.

And when going through the errors i noticed, how i myself even disregarded some of the obvious stuff. Like the gpu cooler being tested on the wrong product. I watched that video and didn't pay it much attention. While retrospectively, that should've been a red flag for me.

[BondiBlue]

1 minute ago, rcarlos243 said:

Fuck up does not even begin to describe how horrid that situation is. I hope they had contracts with LTT on how the prototype was to be handled

When I first heard that I started thinking about just being done with LMG in general. I like the forums so I pay to support it, and I've been an OG member of Floatplane for many years (all the way back when it was just a subforum here and not a separate site), but if this is how LMG is going to treat other companies then I'd rather not be a part of it. I'm sure a lot of Floatplane subscribers would be upset as well if Linus doesn't address this. 

[Ch1ya]

1 hour ago, Jazmodo said:

This was overly dramatic & sensationalist, and isn't the first time by GamersNexus either.

I think the underlying growth of LMG upsets GN. Moving more into more detailed hardware tests directly competes with GN, and they clearly don't like it.

GN also seem to feel LMG 'copied' some of their merchandise sales. LTT deskpads came out after GNs Modmats. LTT screwdriver came out after GN screwdrivers. 

LMG content is fast, and loose, sometimes inaccurate, but (almost) always entertaining. Some criticism is valid, this just seemed overly salty.

You seemed to have not watched the GN video. You should watch it.

[Lyre]

1 hour ago, schitzkrieg said:

If Steve just wanted to "help", he would have chosen a more private setting to tell these things to Linus/someone at LMG.

 

Edit: Not that I don't agree with a lot said here. Could have been handled better I guess. 

Just like the pool company didn't do anything until publicly ousted I don't think that LMG is immune from that either. It's one of my personal tenants that Self Regulation Dose Not Work, You need outside audits to keep something properly regulated. Just like what labs is for.

[Jazmodo]

Just now, Ch1ya said:

You seemed to have not watched the GN video. You should watch it.

I've watched the whole thing, now almost twice. Comments stand 100%.

[YoungBlade]

1 minute ago, Skipple said:

Accusing someone/a company of a "subconscious bias" should follow with evidence of the bias, which I failed to see. There is a potential for conflict of interested. Accusations of bias, even subconscious, require evidence. 

 

Following Steve's logic, his entire video is riddled with subconscious bias, as LTT is a competitor it GN. 

A piece of evidence presented is that LTT gave high praise to the NH-D15, saying they use it in all of their reviews in their coolers video when the video itself clearly shows the NH-D15 thermal throttling with the 13900K installed.

 

I also disagree that the immediate conclusion should be that this is the result of a subconcious bias towards a sponsor, but that is a possible interpretation based on the facts of the situation. I don't think it's great evidence, but even if we both disagree with the conclusion, it is evidence of that, and it was shared.

 

As for GN's conflict of interest, that is a potential concern, which is why I didn't blindly take everything Steve said as gospel. You'll note that I specifically disagreed with his inclusion of the sponsors section where he talked about that in my comment. I don't think it's a good argument, as the evidence is weak. At best, GN is trying to enforce journalistic integrity onto LMG - all well and good, but you don't need specific examples to say that conflicts of interest are bad. At worse it's claiming to be a psychic mind reader that sees the "truth" behind what LMG is "really" saying in their reviews, which is just ridiculous.

 

To me, that whole section weakened GN's argument by allowing for the exact arguments that you're making. Their points about LMG letting through low-hanging-fruit mistakes are much more important and much stronger.

[Lyre]

2 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

When I first heard that I started thinking about just being done with LMG in general. I like the forums so I pay to support it, and I've been an OG member of Floatplane for many years (all the way back when it was just a subforum here and not a separate site), but if this is how LMG is going to treat other companies then I'd rather not be a part of it. I'm sure a lot of Floatplane subscribers would be upset as well if Linus doesn't address this. 

Amen

[Raiden85]

I really don't think this can wait until the next WAN show, Linus needs needs to address this situation ASAP.

[swimtome]

23 minutes ago, manikyath said:

he just seems exceptionally vindictive about it almost to the point of feeling like he *wants* things to be worse than they are.

 

21 minutes ago, Zato80 said:

I didn’t get that from Steve at all, you could see the reluctance he had in making the video ……. let’s not forget who took the swing at GN.

 

12 minutes ago, MarkPol88 said:

That is a sole reason I stopped watching GN - he always looks like he is trying to find something bad, and if he can't he almost looks disappointed.

 

IMHO you're confusing vindictive with trying to be thorough and coming with receipts.  He's being careful to specify specific examples that he can backup.

[Cavalry Canuck]

12 minutes ago, Skipple said:

Just finished the video. Here are my takes:

1. I thought Steve was very fair when criticizing LTT's sloppiness / inaccuracies / mistakes in recent videos, but this doesn't come as a surprise. I think this is something we all have known for a while now. I do agree that LTT needs to do some long and hard introspection on this topic.
2. I'm somewhat shocked that Steve didn't go into detail about their own testing methodology
3. I dislike the non so gentle insinuation that LTT staff is biased because their previous employment without any evidence of said bias.
4. I dislike the non so gentle insinuation that LTT is biased of business connections / partnerships / investment without any evidence of said bias
5. I very much dislike the out of context clips from WAN Show while completely failing to represent Linus' viewpoint. Steve did this exact same thing last time he did a critical video of LTT re: Trust Me Bro.. 
6. I dislike that Steve fails to mention HIS OWN conflict of interest when criticizing a competitor that is moving into GN's bread and butter. 
7. The Billet Labs situation is possibly the most concerning part for me. I disliked Linus' response to the (honestly god awful) video when it happened. If the rest of the story is true, I don't even know how LTT can rectify the situation for the company. I would recommend @LinusTech respond to this siltation immediately, tactfully, and publicly.

You voiced my thoughts and concerns better than I have been.

 

I’m just going to go ahead and say it. I think Steve is jealous of Linus’ success, and is frustrated that his organization doesn’t see the same level of success from his (admittedly much better) reporting standards. Whether it’s videos like this & the warranty issue, or trying to do the factory tour “but better,” the feel of GN has changed from being it’s own thing to trying to be better than LMG in any way possible.
 

But this is a choice they both made a decade ago. LTT steered towards infotainment, whereas GN doubled-down on their fastidiousness. Sadly, people will always gravitate towards the more entertaining outlet. I prefer what GN is, but there is no denying LMG made the more successful choice.

[Middcore]

1 minute ago, Raiden85 said:

I really don't think this can wait until the next WAN show, Linus needs needs to address this situation ASAP.

 

Disagree. Linus's track record indicates him saying anything hastily would probably be a bad idea. 

[RasmusDC]

4 minutes ago, YoungBlade said:

A piece of evidence presented is that LTT gave high praise to the NH-D15, saying they use it in all of their reviews in their coolers video when the video itself clearly shows the NH-D15 thermal throttling with the 13900K installed.

 

I also disagree that the immediate conclusion should be that this is the result of a subconcious bias towards a sponsor, but that is a possible interpretation based on the facts of the situation. I don't think it's great evidence, but even if we both disagree with the conclusion, it is evidence of that, and it was shared.

 

As for GN's conflict of interest, that is a potential concern, which is why I didn't blindly take everything Steve said as gospel. You'll note that I specifically disagreed with his inclusion of the sponsors section where he talked about that in my comment. I don't think it's a good argument, as the evidence is weak. At best, GN is trying to enforce journalistic integrity onto LMG - all well and good, but you don't need specific examples to say that conflicts of interest are bad. At worse it's claiming to be a psychic mind reader that sees the "truth" behind what LMG is "really" saying in their reviews, which is just ridiculous.

 

To me, that whole section weakened GN's argument by allowing for the exact arguments that you're making. Their points about LMG letting through low-hanging-fruit mistakes are much more important and much stronger.

I think you still have to put a bit of bias based on history into your sources.. LTT making mistakes constantly, or Gamers Nexus that has actually kept a fairly CLEAN and fully investigated basis for most of their reviews / examinations, and been really open about their capabilities oon certain tests..

 

i know where my actual trust in reviews lies, is it then the most entertaining channel.. that i don´t know. and for me Youtube is still just entertainment.

[A_Mediocre_Kangaroo_Farmer]

1 minute ago, Jazmodo said:

I've watched the whole thing, now almost twice. Comments stand 100%.

but they are mostly irrelevant to the video. You seem to be upset that GN, almost to a level of annoyance, puts accuracy and ethics above LMG's "entertainment" factor.

 

an irrelevant statement of my own: I've noticed LTT videos becoming more focused on including their children viewers and I think their twitch "meme" status has given them a huge growth in child viewership and so they are trying to capitalize on this. It must be insanely good for their bottom line

[BondiBlue]

Just now, Middcore said:

Disagree. Linus's track record indicates him saying anything hastily would probably be a bad idea. 

Yep. I really want to hear what Linus has to say about all this (especially the Billet Labs thing), but I'd rather wait a bit for a proper response that's less emotionally driven and more rational. 

[Rsg_6100]

14 minutes ago, Skipple said:

Accusing someone/a company of a "subconscious bias" should follow with evidence of said bias, which I failed to see in Steve's video. There is a potential for conflict of interest, sure. Accusations of bias, even subconscious, require evidence. 

 

Following Steve's logic, his entire video is riddled with subconscious bias, as LTT is a competitor it GN. 

Steve addresses this in the video. Specifically stating that inaccuracies from LMG directly effect everyone in the same review space. LMG is indirectly or even directly hurting GN's and all other reviewers that take the time to be accurate.