iOS 17 update could open your iPhone to third-party app stores

[HenrySalayne]

59 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You don't let your kids play with the steak knives, for the same reason you don't give your kid a phone without parental controls.

 

What you want is there to be enough annoyance so that something side-loaded can't bring it's friends, but not "annoying enough" that the user disregards the warnings. Which is what people were doing in Windows Vista.

 

There's far too many people out there who want Apple to do something, just so they can then cheat Apple of the benefit that comes by doing so. Epic wants to screw Apple by operating it's own store, and so do other companies like Electronic Arts. All the money for the store owner, none for Apple. 

 

[...]

 

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-android-malware-apps-installed-10-million-times-from-google-play/

https://www.pandasecurity.com/en/mediacenter/mobile-security/android-more-infected-than-ios/

You see that, there is more malware on Android phones than Windows PC's. And PC's are "more open"

 

It's not an accident that there's less malware on iOS, but that's chalked up to how easy it is to install garbage on Windows and Android, because people don't read security messages, and many software programs (such as ad-supported programs) won't even launch unless they have permission to access everything.

This is the most patronizing BS I read all week.

tl;dr - "People are stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to install apps without Apple's supervision."

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Saying "the bad actors will do this anyways" is ignoring the elephant in the room that the bad actors can't do anything unless Apple lets them, which is why Android is full of malware, and Apple iOS isn't. That's not an accident. But it's not perfect.

You are clueless. You can be sure there are actively used exploits and malware apps on iOS devices right now.

In contrast to Android these exploit are more in the shadows (you wouldn't waste a good exploit to scam some credit card data). If you think a device is safer because it runs iOS, you are delusional.

 

[mr moose]

Apple:  Oh no, we can't allow developers to sell directly to their customers or choose their own payment methods,  someone might get a virus.   

 

Dear apple, majority of security and privacy breaches are not from legitimate software developers but from nefarious actors who will do it regardless of your policies. 

[Commodus]

3 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

You mean the country where all telemetry and private data from iPhones is siphoned into government controlled data centres and where the iOS app store is also government controlled?

 

And this is still along the lines of the "we need to keep people in cages so they'll be safe and won't walk into the wrong bar and get into a fight" argument. Or the "knifes are bad, they could be used to stab somebody" argument. It's basically fearmongering to present alternative ways to install software as the the enabler for bad actors. Who - which has been shown countless times - are already acting in bad faith with or without this.

 

Where do you think Android phone telemetry data in the country goes, and who regulates domestically-operated app stores? Android's current advantage is that you can sideload to dodge some of those restrictions, but if you bought a phone in China it's probably still sending at least some info to authorities; and of course, many apps Chinese users would want (like Douyin or WeChat) would transmit data regardless. Someone who uses, say, a Xiaomi 13 and popular apps isn't practically safer than an iPhone owner, and might even be more vulnerable.

 

Apple is allowing local data transfers and honoring app bans because it doesn't have much of a choice: either it complies or it doesn't sell devices in the country. Now, you could argue that it could just eat that loss and cede the market (much as you can't officially use Google services in China), but that'd make the situation even more depressing than it is now. No real choice, no competition, no way to escape China's preferred OS for surveillance.

 

Again, I don't object to sideloading. It's just important to note that there will be consequences for it.

[Kisai]

11 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

This is the most patronizing BS I read all week.

tl;dr - "People are stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to install apps without Apple's supervision."

Yes. MOST people are stupid when it comes to phones and are not obsessive engineers or lawyers who would readily pick apart the phone itself or EULA.

11 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

You are clueless. You can be sure there are actively used exploits and malware apps on iOS devices right now.

In contrast to Android these exploit are more in the shadows (you wouldn't waste a good exploit to scam some credit card data). If you think a device is safer because it runs iOS, you are delusional.

 

Again, look at the stats. Android is the worst, THEN the PC. WORSE THAN THE PC. Then the ratio looks like 50:35:1, that's pretty damning.

 

 

9 hours ago, Commodus said:

 

Again, I don't object to sideloading. It's just important to note that there will be consequences for it.

 

And those consequences will be determined by how easy or difficult it is to sideload things. If it's a "on/off" switch and it lets you run everything, then the platform is dead, as it is a much more valuable target. Nobody rich and/or famous willingly uses an Android device, at least not as their daily driver. They've been sold on the idea that the only way an Apple device get's hacked is by someone spearphishing you. So your Apple device you're using twitter on, is probably registered to a company, you own, but doesn't have your name on it to avoid customer service agents casually looking it up. And before someone goes "that doesn't happen", it does, I've witnessed it by people being trained deciding to look up the then president of the ** for fun.

 

 

Android hacking? Gillnet phishing. Dredging, even. Everyone with a vulnerable device connected to the internet, gets hacked. Leaving the side-load door open ensures that there are multiple vectors.

 

You want that side loading door open long enough to install only that application you are intending to install. If case you've been asleep for the last 25 years, many programs, piggyback on official programs because those program developers were paid for it. I'm sure everyone remembers when programs tried to get you to install toolbars or even Chrome itself before it would install the software. So if you aren't paying attention, you might end up installing that spyware and not the application or game you had intended to install.

 

There have to be rules to how an application is installed. It can't bring it's friends, it can't be bundled with libraries, software, codecs, drivers that are installed into the OS, which means most forms of DRM and anti-cheat can't be used on the device either. It can't be permitted to see outside the filesystem directory it was installed to, it can't capture the screen, keyboard, or touch screen input without the end user confirming it, every time.

 

It's not ever going to be as simple as a "let third party software run unfettered", to do so is to go back to how insecure everything was back in the 90's when everyone needed an AV product, JUST IN CASE someone got a virus on a floppy disk.

 

[HenrySalayne]

11 hours ago, Commodus said:

Where do you think Android phone telemetry data in the country goes, and who regulates domestically-operated app stores? Android's current advantage is that you can sideload to dodge some of those restrictions, but if you bought a phone in China it's probably still sending at least some info to authorities; and of course, many apps Chinese users would want (like Douyin or WeChat) would transmit data regardless. Someone who uses, say, a Xiaomi 13 and popular apps isn't practically safer than an iPhone owner, and might even be more vulnerable.

 

Apple is allowing local data transfers and honoring app bans because it doesn't have much of a choice: either it complies or it doesn't sell devices in the country. Now, you could argue that it could just eat that loss and cede the market (much as you can't officially use Google services in China), but that'd make the situation even more depressing than it is now. No real choice, no competition, no way to escape China's preferred OS for surveillance.

 

Again, I don't object to sideloading. It's just important to note that there will be consequences for it.

No, it's not an important note, it's laughable.

 

Not only is the entire centre of the argument only relevant for a weird edge-case scenario in a single country, it is also existing in a vacuum and completely disregarding all the other problems of this particular region of the world.

 

And I don't know why every single time Android is used to relativise iOS shortcomings. Apple can be wrong and despicable on its own, it's not better just because you can find something similarly bad.

 

The entire "alternative ways to install software on iOS are a huge problem" crowd is centred around "fears" and "concerns" that doesn't even affect them. They go through a great length to construct artificial arguments completely blown out of proportion.

 

So maybe we can stop the charade. This change has literally zero impact on the life of most iOS users if they don't want to use it.

[AndreiArgeanu]

On 4/20/2023 at 11:43 AM, Kisai said:

The DRM of the the PS1 is the PS1 BIOS, which you are unlikely to have the capability of dumping yourself.

On 4/20/2023 at 11:43 AM, Kisai said:

If people want to say "I dumped the rom myself" I will call them out on lying. Because that is beyond the technical capability of everyone who doesn't own a devkit, or installed a mod chip for playing pirate/import games in the first place. There is simply no connection between "I bought the game legally" and "I can play it on my iphone/android phone/mac/pc/xbox" without doing or acquiring something illegal in the process.

You don't need to acquire anything illegal to dump a PS2 or PS1 bios. On the PS1 you can just use 3rd party software on a disc and the disc swap method to load it then dump the bios to the memory card which you can later transfer to a USB drive. On the PS2 you can use FreeMCBoot or FreeHDBoot or FreeDVDBoot which is used for homebrew and does not inherently circumvent the Mechacon on the PS2. In fact you cannot use FreeMCBoot or similarly named alternatives for piracy, they won't boot any "backup" copies, you need additional software unconnected to FreeMCBoot to do that. You don't need specialised hardware, or be technically inclined to do any of this, it isn't beyond anyone's technical ability who knows how to use a controller and folow some simple instructions.

 

For the PS3 there isn't even any dumping required. You can download the software from Sony's website without any legal obligations.

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

You don't need to acquire anything illegal to dump a PS2 or PS1 bios. On the PS1 you can just use 3rd party software on a disc and the disc swap method to load it then dump the bios to the memory card which you can later transfer to a USB drive.

Ahem, as I said in the comment you replied to. People typically do NOT have the hardware or the skill to do this. The PS1 for example requires a modded PS1, or a launch model to do that. That was something only the the original model of PS1 could do. What is the likeliness of finding one in a used game store or a pawn shop now? Probably zero.

 

Look, when I was trying to get a working SNES/SFC, it took me like 5 tries to get one off eBay/gamedeals/etc that actually worked, and the one that worked was was a mid-generation model. All US launch models were dead on arrival, and the SFC didn't live very long either. The chips in the unit apparently just die based on humidity. That is how hard it is to get a solid-state console. Now ask yourself what the likeliness of getting a working optical disc console is, when kids generally don't take care of the consoles?

 

The thing you also failed to realize is that you needed specific hardware to dump the firmware of the PS1, which at the time didn't exist, you had to build it. Late, LATE, like well-past-the-EOL of the console, was when all this other stuff made by third parties was made, and by then the only available models of PS1 were models without those special ports on it, and you could not use the quoted method on it.

 

The point that I have to make every time people try to argue about this is, that a lot of the hardware out there is ILLEGAL to purchase in the first place. The DMCA came out in 1998, The PS1 came out in 1995, up to that point, people were doing this using retail devices/software like the Gameshark. After that, all those things disappeared. Things like the gameshark and action replay pretty much vanished around early 2000 because of SONY.

 

Quote

3. Advertising, promoting, distributing, selling, transporting or purchasing the Game Enhancer device, or any other device that directly or contributorily violates SCEA's rights under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. § 1201, which provides that no person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, which (a) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under Title 17 of the United States Code, b) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under Title 17 of the United States Code, c) is marketed by that person or another in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under Title 17 of the United States Code, d) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under Title 17 of the United States Code in a work or a portion thereof, e) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under Title 17 of the United States Code in a work or a portion thereof, or f) is marketed by that person or another in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under Title 17 of the United States Code in a work or portion thereof;

 

People do things the least-effort way because it's either:

- Cheaper (hence people downloading pirate copies)

- Faster (modding a console is too much work and potentially destroys the resale value of the unit (modded units can not be sold on eBay for exactly the above quoted DMCA 1201 as well)

 

The only mods that you can commercially get away with are ones that have nothing to do with how software gets on the device. eg, video capture of GB/GBA/DS/3DS units, and even then, point 1 still stands, it's cheaper to just play a pirate copy of the game on an emulator than, risk destroying the device or it getting lost in the mail to make the original device do it. Soldering several dozen wires and packing a second PCB into a handheld is risky. Even then, Nintendo could still claim it was circumventing 1201 because it allows you to capture video, and if you recall the kind of anti-consumer actions Nintendo has taken against youtuber's, you'd know it doesn't matter if it the console is modded or you're playing an emulator anyways. It's the fact that you are putting any video of any first-party game that they make on youtube is enough to get on Nintendo's radar.

 

Nintendo and Sony have very different agendas when it comes to protecting their hardware. Nintendo's interests like mainly in protecting Pokemon, not so much the console itself, though they are the ones sending takedowns for all forms of flash devices for consoles. Sony's are in protecting the console from playing cheaply made backups.  In both cases Nintendo and Sony go after people who violate 1201, spitefully. Even though the damages are actually coming from the people using them.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/02/nintendo-wants-admitted-team-xecuter-pirate-jailed-for-five-years/

 

Quote

While Bowser made an estimated $320,000 from his Team Xecuter work over seven years, according to plea documents, Louarn and Chen "must have made millions" from the "tens of millions" of dollars in sales of the devices, the defense writes. Thus while Bowser lived a "modest life in a modest apartment" in the Dominican Republic, Louarn was enjoying "lavish vacations and parties" in France, according to the defense.

"used to play homebrew", Lies people tell themselves.

 

[AndreiArgeanu]

20 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Ahem, as I said in the comment you replied to. People typically do NOT have the hardware or the skill to do this. The PS1 for example requires a modded PS1, or a launch model to do that. That was something only the the original model of PS1 could do. What is the likeliness of finding one in a used game store or a pawn shop now? Probably zero.

 

Look, when I was trying to get a working SNES/SFC, it took me like 5 tries to get one off eBay/gamedeals/etc that actually worked, and the one that worked was was a mid-generation model. All US launch models were dead on arrival, and the SFC didn't live very long either. The chips in the unit apparently just die based on humidity. That is how hard it is to get a solid-state console. Now ask yourself what the likeliness of getting a working optical disc console is, when kids generally don't take care of the consoles?

 

The thing you also failed to realize is that you needed specific hardware to dump the firmware of the PS1, which at the time didn't exist, you had to build it. Late, LATE, like well-past-the-EOL of the console, was when all this other stuff made by third parties was made, and by then the only available models of PS1 were models without those special ports on it, and you could not use the quoted method on it.

 

The point that I have to make every time people try to argue about this is, that a lot of the hardware out there is ILLEGAL to purchase in the first place. The DMCA came out in 1998, The PS1 came out in 1995, up to that point, people were doing this using retail devices/software like the Gameshark. After that, all those things disappeared. Things like the gameshark and action replay pretty much vanished around early 2000 because of SONY.

Again if you cared to do the littlest of research you’d know about the tony skater pro 2 and 3 hack. Those games are widely available and relatively inexpensive and alongside a modified save file a buffer overflow exploit can be used to load homebrew of another cd. This works on all PS1 consoles.

 

[Kisai]

47 minutes ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

Again if you cared to do the littlest of research you’d know about the tony skater pro 2 and 3 hack. Those games are widely available and relatively inexpensive and alongside a modified save file a buffer overflow exploit can be used to load homebrew of another cd. This works on all PS1 consoles.

 

Did you even look at the date? You ignored the parts when this stuff was produced.

 

Here, I'll simplify it:

1. Nobody can buy new PS1 consoles

2. Nobody can buy new PS1 games

 

The "swap trick" on the launch model Playstation units was well known to people who wanted to play imports, but that was fixed in later models of PlayStation. When you start going "oh you just need ..." you're ignoring the entire point of the argument that it's not something people have.

 

When people play emulated playstation games on their PC, they absolutely downloaded the firmware off the internet. If you were go to ask a a youtuber or a streamer to prove they dumped that firmware themselves, they would not be able to prove it, because that is not hardware most people have, and the only people who have that hardware, aren't going to make a show of it on youtube and put a target on their back. Many of the people streaming PS1 games, are doing so on a device that is not a PS1 because they were probably only 4 years old when the final model of PS1 was discontinued.

 

They are not going to have vintage hardware or software around to do this. That is not what they are interested in doing.

 

This is also, again derailing the topic. Which again, goes back to the point that companies can not trust the user, or even the software developer is smart enough to not leave the back door unlocked. That's why Apple was always vetting the software so they didn't become backdoors, or contain malware themselves.

 

People are going to do what they want to do regardless, but, the hardware manufacturer is going to throw Title 17 section 1201 at you break the locks yourself and you brag about it.

 

[AndreiArgeanu]

10 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Did you even look at the date? You ignored the parts when this stuff was produced.

 

Here, I'll simplify it:

1. Nobody can buy new PS1 consoles

2. Nobody can buy new PS1 games

 

The "swap trick" on the launch model Playstation units was well known to people who wanted to play imports, but that was fixed in later models of PlayStation. When you start going "oh you just need ..." you're ignoring the entire point of the argument that it's not something people have.

 

When people play emulated playstation games on their PC, they absolutely downloaded the firmware off the internet. If you were go to ask a a youtuber or a streamer to prove they dumped that firmware themselves, they would not be able to prove it, because that is not hardware most people have, and the only people who have that hardware, aren't going to make a show of it on youtube and put a target on their back. Many of the people streaming PS1 games, are doing so on a device that is not a PS1 because they were probably only 4 years old when the final model of PS1 was discontinued.

 

They are not going to have vintage hardware or software around to do this. That is not what they are interested in doing.

 

This is also, again derailing the topic. Which again, goes back to the point that companies can not trust the user, or even the software developer is smart enough to not leave the back door unlocked. That's why Apple was always vetting the software so they didn't become backdoors, or contain malware themselves.

 

People are going to do what they want to do regardless, but, the hardware manufacturer is going to throw Title 17 section 1201 at you break the locks yourself and you brag about it.

 

The burden of proof does not lie with a defendant as far as I'm aware. It's innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. Any company seeking litigation would have to provide evidence that the defendant in question has obtained the content they're using through illegitimate means.

 

What does the availability of new PS1 consoles and games have anything to do with someone's ability to dump the bios off of it. Besides that, it has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. You don't need a new console, you can easily find PS1's and PS1 games, it's not some rare or expensive console, it sold over 100 million units. This isn't about what most people do when emulating consoles. This is about the fact that you said that

On 4/20/2023 at 11:43 AM, Kisai said:

The DRM of the the PS1 is the PS1 BIOS, which you are unlikely to have the capability of dumping yourself. There is one PS1 emulator out there that can operate without a BIOS, but the rest do.

 

If people want to say "I dumped the rom myself" I will call them out on lying. Because that is beyond the technical capability of everyone who doesn't own a devkit, or installed a mod chip for playing pirate/import games in the first place.

This isn't about what people statistically do most of the time. You imply that it is extremely difficult to legally dump ROMs or the bios of console, when clearly that's not the case. You don't need to be technically inclined, mod chip or even have a devkit to do any of this. It's not some impossible feat like you imply it is. If you want to do it legitimately you can.

On 4/20/2023 at 11:43 AM, Kisai said:

I do not believe anyone on THIS forum owns all the necessary hardware to dump anything legally

And again this as well. Anyone that has a PS2 with a FreeMCBoot, FreeDVDBoot or FreeHDBoot which is a relatively common addon to most PS2's, owners can easily dump the bios to a USB drive. FreeMCBoot and similar mods, do not "circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a protected work". The bios is not encrypted as far as I'm aware and neither is the game data on the disc. I don't get why you make these claims when giving some tought could easily show you that it's just simply wrong.

[Senzelian]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:01 AM, TempestCatto said:

I feel like Apple will find a way to make it very difficult to "enable" side loading. It'll be some weird toggle buried deep in the bowels of some dumb settings thing. Either way I really hope it comes to all iOS users as I'd love to side load older versions of apps, especially if I go dumb and decide to stick it out with a new iPhone (still on the fence about that one. Need me headphone jack).

Oh you probably will have to log into your iPhone with an Apple account, then go into settings, then have to visit some dumb Apple website where they tell you how great the App Store is, then you'll have to find some stupid setting in there, authenticate yourself twice, of which one won't work, for which you then have to contact Apple support, who of course have no idea of what is going on and then... well that's it. It simply won't work and they'll just say "oops, in same rare cases the authentication caused issues".

 

Business as usual.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

 

And again this as well. Anyone that has a PS2 with a FreeMCBoot, FreeDVDBoot or FreeHDBoot which is a relatively common addon to most PS2's, owners can easily dump the bios to a USB drive. FreeMCBoot and similar mods, do not "circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a protected work". The bios is not encrypted as far as I'm aware and neither is the game data on the disc. I don't get why you make these claims when giving some tought could easily show you that it's just simply wrong.

So are you voluntarily saying you pirate things, or are you just bragging that you "could"? Because that's all you are doing by announcing you have this stuff in a place that does not want people talking about how to pirate things.

 

Perhaps there is a reason I've avoided saying certain things because to say something else might encourage someone to go find it hmm???????

 

The PS1 is out of production. END OF STORY. If you did not buy one, brand new, in 1995, you can not pull the "just dump it from your own PS1" argument. You can't do it with a newer model, and you can't dump it from another device emulating it and not violate 1201. It's illegal to do so since 1998! Zoomers have never had the opportunity to do so legally.

 

Why is that difficult for you to understand? 

"You can't do so legally" is not the same as "you can do so, assuming you had the hardware..."

 

I really do expect a moderator to nuke this thread at some point. Please put your e-brags away.

 

Knowing how to do something, and advertising how to do it are two different degrees of liability.

[Ultraforce]

6 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The PS1 is out of production. END OF STORY. If you did not buy one, brand new, in 1995, you can not pull the "just dump it from your own PS1" argument. You can't do it with a newer model, and you can't dump it from another device emulating it and not violate 1201. It's illegal to do so since 1998! Zoomers have never had the opportunity to do so legally.

Theoretically I guess one could argue that they can just buy a PS1 used and do the steps sinceit was a somewhat successful console and for people who like retro gaming PS2s can play PS1 games.

Though that's obviously not what the commentor is talking about. Admittedly, I'm in a weird position as with 3 exceptions I've never played a video game outside of it's intended hardware(an abandoned ware DOS kids game and Mother 1+2 and 3).

But yeah people shouldn't brag about or constantly talk about how they are doing it legit by dumping BIOS and installing games using that.

Even if I've been curious about the tech just as a way to back up GBA saves to deal with cartridges with internal batteries failing I can't see why someone would talk about how they will do that to play it on the PC.

[Kisai]

29 minutes ago, Ultraforce said:

Theoretically I guess one could argue that they can just buy a PS1 used and do the steps sinceit was a somewhat successful console and for people who like retro gaming PS2s can play PS1 games.

That requires a lot of effort if one only wanted to play the game, which is basically the elephant in the room. If you just want to play Parasite Eve or Xenogears, two games that Square-Enix has NEVER republished. The easiest way would be via PSN (2011), and the Playstation Classic in 2018 (which is not actually a PS1.) Not via buying a vintage PS1 and finding someone willing to part with the Parasite Eve discs.

 

Again, unless you bought them when they were new, the chances of finding it now, legitimately, is pretty close to zero.

 

What about all the other games that were released for the PS1 that have NOT found their way on to the PSN?

 

29 minutes ago, Ultraforce said:

Though that's obviously not what the commentor is talking about. Admittedly, I'm in a weird position as with 3 exceptions I've never played a video game outside of it's intended hardware(an abandoned ware DOS kids game and Mother 1+2 and 3).

But yeah people shouldn't brag about or constantly talk about how they are doing it legit by dumping BIOS and installing games using that.

Even if I've been curious about the tech just as a way to back up GBA saves to deal with cartridges with internal batteries failing I can't see why someone would talk about how they will do that to play it on the PC.

See, for me, I've played every game originally on it's intended hardware, when it it was new. Someone 10 years younger than me, would never have been able to get a vintage NES or SNES, and someone 20 years younger than me would never have had N64 or PS1. 

 

The only way they will ever play those games is on an emulator, or finding someone willing to part with the games. Popular games people will not part with, and you're almost certainly going to end up with a counterfeit copy of the game if you go looking for it on eBay. Likewise, finding a vintage console that can still play discs is also going to be a pain to find. It's just not worth the effort, and most people who just want to play a game they never had the chance to play, are going to end up doing so via a pirate copy if the publisher doesn't make it available to play in any other form.

 

The iPhone and Android devices are not in this camp.

 

There has never been a legitimate way to play third party software without doing something that "breaks" the device for legitimate software. Something that Xbox's, Playstations, 3DS, the Wii and WiiU and the Switch all also do. 

 

If you JB a device, the device gets banned. A lot of "cheap consoles" you find on ebay are either banned because of this, or "for parts" because the drive no longer works. The vast majority of Super Nintendo consoles and Xbox 360's you find on eBay, are broken. They are difficult or impossible to fix, and fixes often don't extend the life very long.

 

An iPhone, however, buy something once, and it will keep being transferred to your future devices as long as there is an iCloud backup of it. Something Apple wants you to pay for.

 

Holding your software hostage, instead of being able to just copy them off the device piecemeal.

 

A third party store is not going to solve that, and neither will a switch to "side load" it, because we've put ourselves into this situation where the big software companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo, would rather you keep buying software over and over again, every time you buy a new device, and any time they come out with a new device, throw out everything you spent money on.

 

You don't throw out your family members when they get too old. Like try using this excuse and replace "phone" with "dog. Yet that is what Nintendo wants us to do, is euthanatize the old dog and buy this new puppy. Pretend that old Dog never existed.

 

And that is why when these 900lb gorilla companies try to use copyright as an argument against making copies, when they aren't even giving you the ability to keep the software you already paid for in perpetuity, people are just going to silently make sure they can still use that software, and some will spitefully pirate things they never even had because they know that the 900lb gorilla is has been spiting them first in taking their purchases away.

[Ultraforce]

39 minutes ago, Kisai said:

See, for me, I've played every game originally on it's intended hardware, when it it was new. Someone 10 years younger than me, would never have been able to get a vintage NES or SNES, and someone 20 years younger than me would never have had N64 or PS1. 

 

The only way they will ever play those games is on an emulator, or finding someone willing to part with the games. Popular games people will not part with, and you're almost certainly going to end up with a counterfeit copy of the game if you go looking for it on eBay. Likewise, finding a vintage console that can still play discs is also going to be a pain to find. It's just not worth the effort, and most people who just want to play a game they never had the chance to play, are going to end up doing so via a pirate copy if the publisher doesn't make it available to play in any other form.

I will say not going to ask your age but I will say I was born after the N64 came out and have played games on an NES since we were able to find one for a low price back in the early 2010s. Admitedly for many of the older consoles I'm restricted to games that were either popular to the point of omnipresence or shovel ware. Also I've not looked much since the pandemic and it might be worse now.

I will say I pretty much only play stuff on intended hardware partially because for some of the consoles with my favourite games like the DS or Wii U there's the selfish reason of the PC is not in my opinion a great device for playing video games and the Wii U and 3DS are just plain superior gaming experiences.

Though I do think the loss of having there be a legal way to play games is a major problem that needs to be dealt with and is part of a larger picture problem of the history of this young industry like sand escaping from our hands. In that sense there's a reason for emulation to exist but I'd argue that sideloading on phones is not where it needs to exist.

[williamcll]

Finally, I can now install adblocked youtube without refreshing it weekly on altstore. I wonder will XDA opera up a section for sideloaded app development the forums now? Also iPhones gets breached as easily as android with or without jailbreaking anyways.

On 4/21/2023 at 8:57 PM, Commodus said:

Where do you think Android phone telemetry data in the country goes, and who regulates domestically-operated app stores? Android's current advantage is that you can sideload to dodge some of those restrictions, but if you bought a phone in China it's probably still sending at least some info to authorities; and of course, many apps Chinese users would want (like Douyin or WeChat) would transmit data regardless. Someone who uses, say, a Xiaomi 13 and popular apps isn't practically safer than an iPhone owner, and might even be more vulnerable.

 

Apple is allowing local data transfers and honoring app bans because it doesn't have much of a choice: either it complies or it doesn't sell devices in the country. Now, you could argue that it could just eat that loss and cede the market (much as you can't officially use Google services in China), but that'd make the situation even more depressing than it is now. No real choice, no competition, no way to escape China's preferred OS for surveillance.

 

Again, I don't object to sideloading. It's just important to note that there will be consequences for it.

First of all put your head out of the gutter and stop reading propaganda on Chinese Oppression, second app/play store outside of china are already riddled with privacy violating apps so getting FOSS apps from sideloading is unironically a better choice.

[Kisai]

22 hours ago, Ultraforce said:

I will say not going to ask your age but I will say I was born after the N64 came out and have played games on an NES since we were able to find one for a low price back in the early 2010s. Admitedly for many of the older consoles I'm restricted to games that were either popular to the point of omnipresence or shovel ware. Also I've not looked much since the pandemic and it might be worse now.

The only time it was really ever possible to pick up old game consoles was before the nostalgia wave for it hits. So that's about 10 years after the device is no longer sold. People want to re-live the games they played as a kid, and unless they kept the original, their only option is emulating it, or trying to find someone who kept their original console and wants to part with it. For most people, the idea of paying 100x the price of the console or game when it was new, is just not an option. Unless your favorite game was shovelware. Then, usually a lot of those end up at used game shops/shows in the bargain bins. It's easy to find old sports titles because they were all shovelware to begin with, and that IS what most games are in used games stores. Some titles that were popular enough that everyone had it, all the sports titles that had a year on it, and some of the low-effort edutainment/brand-tie-in shovelware like toy and film tie-ins.

 

22 hours ago, Ultraforce said:

I will say I pretty much only play stuff on intended hardware partially because for some of the consoles with my favourite games like the DS or Wii U there's the selfish reason of the PC is not in my opinion a great device for playing video games and the Wii U and 3DS are just plain superior gaming experiences.

 

Even trying to play the Wii U or Wii on a video game stream, is an extremely difficult pain to do, because of the controller gimmick. Wii games are difficult to emulate unless you have a real Wii remote, or something that can duplicate all the IMU values (like an expensive webcam or smart phone.) So unless you're playing something that has very minimal use of the motion controls (Eg the controller is generally played sideways like with the side-scroller Mario titles) it's just going to be difficult to play. The "second screen" of the WiiU, DS and 3DS also makes those devices difficult to emulate, but unlike the motion control issue, you can pretty much just play an emulated "dual screen" game as a single screen, played vertically. And funny enough, that is the most logical reason to play a 3DS/DS game on an iPhone, because the 3DS is EOL, so the only way you're going to get a vertical screen that you can touch is by having a Nintendo Switch controller paired to an iPhone. 

 

Playing a DS/3DS game on the switch , rotated 90 degrees? Pain the ass. Play it on the PC? Also pain in the ass since you have to use the mouse. Go ahead, try play the Mario 64 for DS... by using the mouse as an analog controller. It's just incredibly unintuitive. How Android emulators get around this, is actually by mapping the analog control on the gamepad to a fixed part of the screen. 

 

But I digress, I think people get into this annoying "but my freedumbs" mode, that they should be able to do anything to their device they want, including not paying for software, and that's why these arguments on the internet are all clownshows of people going "yeah, I see what you said there, you're talking about doing something illegal, but you're calling it homebrew so you won't get banned and/or have big N demand the forum cough up your identity"

 

22 hours ago, Ultraforce said:

 

Though I do think the loss of having there be a legal way to play games is a major problem that needs to be dealt with and is part of a larger picture problem of the history of this young industry like sand escaping from our hands. In that sense there's a reason for emulation to exist but I'd argue that sideloading on phones is not where it needs to exist.

 

Honestly, this feels like a regulatory issue where two things are just annoyingly unresolved because they are issues that only affect people under the age of 45. Those 90 year old turtles in political positions don't care about video games, and we've seen that lunacy way back in the mid-90's before the ESRB was a thing.

 

Like there are three things I feel need to be regulated:

1. If a company wishes to employ DRM, they must be required to replace the user's media, in perpetuity, at no cost. Even if the device and media is no longer manufactured. The only way out here is to make sure that all old titles are always on the current device, so the manufacturer can upgrade them to the current console's copy of the software.

2. If a company wishes to NOT employ DRM, the users is permitted to back up their own media, and the company who has produced the media can offer to replace the media (eg digital or physical) for the retail cost difference between the original purchase media and current media.  (eg if a game was purchased digitally for $40, and the retail disc was $60, then I could ask for them to send me a replacement disc for $20, or send the game preloaded on a SDcard for the cost of the SDcard - $40.)

3. If a company wishes to discontinue a "live service" they must refund all purchases made on the live service to date. If they don't want to keep operating some service in perpetuity, then they must sell it to someone who does want to, OR they must open source the necessary parts of the software in order for someone to continue to operate it.

 

But I doubt we'll see anything like this happen, there is too much money to be made in forcing people to buy the same software or media over and over again.

[Fnige]

On 4/18/2023 at 10:59 AM, TrigrH said:

Lets how apple manages to intentionally half ass this feature.

 

I'm expecting some stupid your warranty is now void message or an annoying popup every time you launch a sideloaded app.

Only a rumour but ummm...

https://www.techradar.com/news/ios-17-app-sideloading-might-only-be-available-in-europe

[darknessblade]

On 4/18/2023 at 2:59 AM, TrigrH said:

Lets how apple manages to intentionally half ass this feature.

 

I'm expecting some stupid your warranty is now void message or an annoying popup every time you launch a sideloaded app.

If they do that they violate European warranty regulations, and can still incur massive fines for doing so.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htm#:~:text=EU law also stipulates that,you to provide longer guarantees.

 

 

Quote

When can your customer claim redress?

Be aware that you are legally bound by any public statements you make about your products, especially through advertisements or on labels.

If you are a retailer, your customers can ask for redress under the legal guarantee provided by EU law - if an item:

• wasn't installed correctly - either by you, or by the customer, due to shortcomings in the instructions

 

I think apple will implement sideloading, but will make sure there is almost no documentation on said feature, on any of their sites. or its hidden somewhere 50 layers deep in the FAQ. Trying to claim that since they never made any public statement about said feature, it does not fall under the "warranty" rules protection.

 

By looking at apple and their multiple violations when it comes to EU warranty regulations, I do expect them to pull a stunt like this.

 

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/apple-eu-warranty

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2013-03-19-eu-commission-calls-for-better-enforcement-following-app.html?

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2713549/apple-s-misleading-warranties-must-be-punished--says-eu-commissioner.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-italy-apple-antitrust-idUKKBN28A0OW

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/12/italy-fines-apple-12-million-over-iphone-marketing-claims/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleCare%2B

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_10_1175

 

Only after they get caught, and fined, they will make a public statement, but at that point it will be 3+ years further down the line, with apple trying to normalize the thinking of: "Sideloading=voids warranty" during the entire "investigation" period before apple gets fined,

[Kisai]

On 4/24/2023 at 12:13 AM, FnigePython said:

Only a rumour but ummm...

https://www.techradar.com/news/ios-17-app-sideloading-might-only-be-available-in-europe

 

I doubt it. One thing Apple  has managed to steer around without ever having an issue is shipping the exact same device to every country. They've only shipped devices with different modems for precise business reasons (Eg country doesn't operate on that frequency band) and even then it's just a question of how much certain parts cost. The power amplifiers are needed for every frequency band if someone can't reasonably be in every country at the same time, then you don't need all of them, just the most common ones plus whatever your country operates on.

 

Like even a Canada/US model has only ever differed due to the CDMA networks that no longer exist and Canada's rather slow adoption of new mobile technology. For example, no support for mmWave on the Canadian models. In fact the feature appears to be disappearing from new phones not being added, with the SE model also not having it. mmWave is US exclusive for no other reason than other countries are dragging their feet.

 

So if you want to make the logic leap, an "EU-exclusive" phone is possible, but the result would likely be a device that is identical to all but the US flagship model. Be careful what you wish for, as the rest of the world might have the side loading feature, but only becomes available if you register a EU debit card and have the itunes store set to a Euro-zone market.

 

[Terrorgod]

I would love this on the sole premise of apps that lose functionality due to apples store policies (think something like the state of IOS floatplane). I tried to use a wifi scanning app on a iphone SE the other day and it lost so much functionality compared to android that I think this is necessary.

[Ultraforce]

1 hour ago, Terrorgod said:

I would love this on the sole premise of apps that lose functionality due to apples store policies (think something like the state of IOS floatplane). I tried to use a wifi scanning app on a iphone SE the other day and it lost so much functionality compared to android that I think this is necessary.

One thing to note is that there will only be limited additional functionality in reality since what parts of iphones and iOS can be access can still probably be limited by Apple even with a different store.

[TetraSky]

If they don't half-ass it, I could see a future where I get an apple device again.

[rrats]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:29 AM, Kisai said:

My N95 that I held onto until I bought an iPhone 6S, I could just plug it into the PC and select either "media device" or "storage device" and it would either present the entire phone (storage) or just the photos and music (media device) to the computer. Not really any worse.

Nokia N95? That's my dream phone to this very day. I'd replace it over my galaxy s8 any time.

Too bad it's like nearly impossible to get a working model in here.