navi 31 AMD Declines Radeon RX 7900 XTX RMA For Hitting 110C Junction Temps, Says “Temperatures Are Normal” (Updated #2)

[BiG StroOnZ]

Summary

AMD has reportedly declined an RMA request for its Radeon RX 7900 XTX graphics card which was hitting up to 110C temperatures. There have recently been reports of high temperatures (standard and junction) on the reference MBA design. Redditor, u/nero1338, posted a few days ago in the r/AMDHelp subreddit that his Radeon RX 7900 XTX reference graphics card was hitting 110C Junction temperatures while playing Modern Warfare II. He states that his fans shoot up to 100% and despite reinstalling the latest drivers and manually setting his case fan speeds to 100%, nothing seems to have worked for him. The Redditor made an RMA request directly to AMD but he was hit by a rejection. 

 

 

 

 

Quotes

Quote

He states that his RMA request for the AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX Reference 'MBA' graphics card has been declined and AMD states that the 110C Junction temperatures are normal spec for the graphics card.

 

Another user also responded and mentioned that AMD allowed him an RMA request but he can't return it for a refund if the box was opened.

 

Now as for the overheating issue, it looks like this is only a major issue with AMD's own reference 'MBA' design. All MBA designs can hit hot spot temps of 110C which seems to be the hard limit before the card throttles down to a lower clock speed & results in lower performance. None of the custom designs face this overheating issue and that's because they use proper 3 to 3.5-slot coolers and custom PCB designs.

 

Using data from a handful of reviews as well as users from its forums, HardwareLuxx has shown that MBA reference designs have been observed with GPU/hot spot temperature deltas as high as 53C (a 56C GPU with a 109C hot spot), and this seems to be a somewhat consistent issue. This means that a GPU with a modest average temperature of around 60C could start throttling if the hotspot reaches 110C.

 

If MBA designs are suffering from this large GPU-to-hot-spot delta and third-party designs aren't, it seems like the obvious culprit might be AMD's reference cooling designs. HardwareLuxx didn't jump to this conclusion, instead opting to discuss direct die cooling of the Navi 31 GPU being difficult due to the chiplet design presenting an uneven surface to the cooler. Specifically, editor Andreas Schilling said "we suspect that an uneven contact pressure is responsible for the high temperature differences." Looking at a bare PCB, the publication says the central GCD and six MCDs are filled and look level, so there could be something else causing uneven contact issues (such as the GPU frame).

 

It looks like the issue is large with the mounting pressure, thermal paste quality, and the thermal pads used by the cards. Once new ones are applied and the card is mounted again, the overheating issues are eliminated. But it is still something that shouldn't be overlooked by AMD and not something that the users have to sort out by themselves.

 

My thoughts

This is an intruiging story, as last week I remember when Hardwareluxx.de published their chart and findings showing the reference XTX hot spot temps being an issue. Now according to them, and other publications the non-Reference AIB/AIC designs don't exhibit this issue. They suggest that it's a mounting pressure issue regarding the chiplit design not making even contact with the heatsink on all the chiplets. Der8auer investigated the issue himself and found that there were a few variables responsible; the mounting pressure, the thermal paste quality, and the thermal pads used in these reference cards. He found once the thermal paste and pads are replaced, and it's remounted, the overheating issues are relinquished. I found this story on Twitter via someone I follow who claimed that the exact same thing happened to him (AMD not honoring the RMA) when he purchased a 5800X3D from them that suffered from WHEA errors. This is definitely not the way AMD should be treating their customers, especially their loyal fan base. After checking the Reddit link, it appears that PowerColor is taking it upon themselves to gather data from those who are dealing with the 110c issue and not getting any help. Hopefully this hotspot temp issue gets settled and those who are experiencing the issue get the proper assistance. Lastly, from what I can tell, there doesn't seem to be much data on the XT exhibiting the same issue. 

 

Sources

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/news/hardware/grafikkarten/60063-hohes-temperatur-delta-nutzer-melden-temperaturprobleme-der-radeon-rx-7900-xt-x.html

https://wccftech.com/amd-declines-radeon-rx-7900-xtx-rma-for-hitting-110c-junction-temps-says-temperatures-are-normal/

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-investigating-rx-7900-reference-hot-spot-temperatures

 

Update

 

Summary

According to the updated Reddit post, after making a stink, that the Redditor in question was finally accepted for a return (along with a few others)

 

 

It also appears that the support line for the storefront is not ran by AMD, but by a company known as Digital River. 

 

Quotes

Quote

It seems enough clamor here has reached the right voices at AMD. I tried one more time to work with support, requesting a refund/return, and was immediately given a "yes" for a return.

 

I did NOT go through a special portal or speak to someone in particular - just their normal support portal. I'm seeing a few others around the subreddit and elsewhere that are now getting a "yes" to a return on their opened 7900 XTX's.

 

I'll keep the thread up-to-date until the refund/return process is complete, but special thanks to /u/PowerColorSteven who played a huge hand in getting our community heard. 

 

My thoughts

I think it's good that the RMA finally went through. The question that seems to be popping up in this thread though, is if he is swapping the card for another reference design, what are the chances that the replacement also suffers from the same issue? I will keep this thread up to date, documenting the entire outcome of the return process.

 

Update 2

 

Summary

The problem with reference XTX cards thermal throttling has now been localized to the vapor chamber. A small batch of 7900 XTX MBA (reference) vapor chambers did not get enough water.

 

 

Quotes

Quote

A small batch of our vapor chambers actually have an issue, not enough water, and it's a very small percentage. 

 

My thoughts

It's good to see AMD is recognizing the issue and is owning up to it finally. It seems though, most of the community did the grunt work for them. But it's good that they are accepting returns no questions asked. I wonder if it's in the 1000's though, depending on what this "small batch" actually is considered. 

[PDifolco]

Well, my Gigabyte 3080 Eagle reached 110C mem junction as well, and it wasn't the only model to do that, but noone ever requested RMA ...

[Demonking]

Corpo is not your friend, don't expect them to offer you help when it cost them money to do so. 

[AlTech]

The MBA design is literally just the baseline of what AMD considers acceptable for each GPU. If you want a card that is better than what AMD considers acceptable then buy a custom design card.

 

110C Junction temp sounds quite high and I have no idea why it would be that high but if you want the coolest card from AMD you dhould buy an AIB card not the MBA design.

 

Edit: I should also mention that the graphs presented in the OP are not error free and they are not professionally out together and have multiple listings for the same card in some cases despite having no legend entry explaining the differences between the different results from the same card.

[IkeaGnome]

They've been using 110C as the max junction temp since rx 5xxx. This isn't anything new. People are just being pissy because it's trendy right now. 

https://community.amd.com/t5/gaming/amd-radeon-community-update-more-control-over-gpu-power-and/ba-p/418629

Quote

Instead of setting a conservative, ‘worst case’ throttling temperature for the entire die, the Radeon^TM RX 5700 series GPUs will continue to opportunistically and aggressively ramp clocks until any one of the many available sensors hits the ‘hotspot’ or ‘Junction’ temperature of 110 degrees Celsius. Operating at up to 110C Junction Temperature during typical gaming usage is expected and within spec. This enables the Radeon^TM RX 5700 series GPUs to offer much higher performance and clocks out of the box, while maintaining acoustic and reliability targets.

We provide users with both measurements – the average GPU Temperature and Junction Temperature – so that they have the best and most complete visibility into the operation of their Radeon^TM RX 5700 series GPUs.

 

[CommanderAlex]

I read this earlier and I didn't see much of a problem why they would accept RMA. Hey if it breaks during the warranty period, then RMA it and get a new one. I don't have much background information on the reference design cooler and issues that may be happening, but it appears third party options don't have this issue whatsoever. Blame the person that decides to buy the reference design. 

[Brooksie359]

Wow they bought a reference design card and got not ideal temps who would have thought. People making huge noise over nothing. 

[Arika]

lol my RTX a4000 single slot, single fan doesn't even get that hot, WTF are you doing AMD?

[BabaGanuche]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

lol my RTX a4000 single slot, single fan doesn't even get that hot, WTF are you doing AMD?

That is because you are comparing different things. Nvidia does not expose the equivalent of AMD junction temp or at least as of the RTX 3000 series.

[Arika]

12 minutes ago, BabaGanuche said:

That is because you are comparing different things. Nvidia does not expose the equivalent of AMD junction temp or at least as of the RTX 3000 series.

what is AMD's junction temps measuring? because mine definitely shows a junction temp

 

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

34 minutes ago, Arika S said:

what is AMD's junction temps measuring? because mine definitely shows a junction temp

 

 

Not sure if HWInfo is reliable in that sense... or it's not measuring what we thought it is. 

[vertigo220]

I agree that 110C in and of itself isn't an issue, and that one shouldn't expect ideal temps from a reference card, but that's not the only issue here, at least not according to the person who wrote the post and was trying to get an RMA. They said the fans were running at 100% despite the case fans being set at 100% (we don't know how good the airflow in the case is, but I'm assuming it was fine with the previous card) and that they were "told that throttling performance, massive frame drops, and maxing out its fans is apparently "in-spec" for AMD and is acceptable." I take all of that to mean they weren't just seeing high temps as a result of the card pushing itself to the limit, but that the card was overheating which led to throttling and poor performance and excess noise. Combined with the other info provided by OP about poor thermal paste and pad application and mounting pressure being found in some cards, it sounds like that was the case here, not that it was just "not ideal" temps.

[Doobeedoo]

I know we've seen these within specs temps before already and no throttle. I wonder was it a specific case and actually throttled or fear of high temp report alone. 

[mikomido]

A nother   

M ajor   

D isappointment.

 

Lied about everything regarding this card. What do they expect?

 

 

 

[suicidalfranco]

13 hours ago, Demonking said:

Corpo is not your friend,

good luck in trying to make understand this foreign concept to some people here

[Quackers101]

all of these brands have done this and it sucks.

More so if things are not installed correctly and you have to reduce overall performance.

And if it "works as it should", to when one are able to complain and have something to be done about it, if it's something that AMD could "fix"?

[Sauron]

I mean... what does this person think an RMA would solve for them anyway? If this is the cooler's design then any replacement will have the same problem. Is the card underperforming compared to other reference cards? If not then there's no reason AMD should accept an RMA. Seeing a high temperature reading is not a "defect". 110 might seem high but if it's within spec there really isn't any reason to worry about it... fans ramping up isn't ideal but it's normal for reference cards and certainly not a manufacturing defect, if you want headroom you should buy a higher performance partner design.

 

You can certainly criticize AMD for bad cooler design but nothing here seems grounds for an RMA.

7 hours ago, vertigo220 said:

"told that throttling performance, massive frame drops, and maxing out its fans is apparently "in-spec" for AMD and is acceptable." I take all of that to mean they weren't just seeing high temps as a result of the card pushing itself to the limit, but that the card was overheating which led to throttling and poor performance and excess noise.

How have they measured this? How do they know this is because of the junction temperatures and not the card just hitting its power limits? These cards were benchmarked and tested for reviews and this person could easily find the performance numbers they could expect; does their card perform measurably worse? In that case, and in that case only, they may be eligible for an RMA. Otherwise it's just buyer's remorse.

[Fendrick]

Corp is not your friend yes, but within reasonable silicon limitations 110c is nothing.

 

Nothing to see here, just people ranting and telling us their standards are from yesteryear.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Ah, this reminds me of my RMA for a Nvidia RTX 2070 from Zotac... 1 year to get my money back.

[vertigo220]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

How have they measured this? How do they know this is because of the junction temperatures and not the card just hitting its power limits? These cards were benchmarked and tested for reviews and this person could easily find the performance numbers they could expect; does their card perform measurably worse? In that case, and in that case only, they may be eligible for an RMA. Otherwise it's just buyer's remorse.

That's my point. We don't know, and many people are just assuming he hasn't and that it wasn't a real issue. My point was we can't make that assumption, or the opposite for that matter. If he didn't do any testing then sure, he very likely is just making an issue out of nothing. But it's possible he did, and there really was an issue. AMD's response should have been to ask him to run some tests and report back the results to see if there actually was an issue. Maybe they did and he conveniently left that part out. Who knows? I'm just saying people should remember it is possible, especially based on the findings noted in OP, that the card was defective due to poor assembly.

[CTR640]

AMD can talk all they want, 110C is NOT normal. And don't get me started this is winter season so imagine the temps in summer.

Funny thing is, that shit is the reason why I went for the GTX780 instead of R9 290. Yeah, 95C....

 

I already had bad experiences with hot GPU and CPU back in 2012-2014, never ever again.

[Sauron]

2 minutes ago, vertigo220 said:

That's my point. We don't know, and many people are just assuming he hasn't and that it wasn't a real issue. My point was we can't make that assumption, or the opposite for that matter.

I can make that assumption when no detail is given in this "exposè" post where they went out of their way to document the "issue" regarding temperature. Why would they not include any evidence of a real issue while demanding an RMA? The burden of proof is on them here.

4 minutes ago, vertigo220 said:

it's possible he did, and there really was an issue.

Then I'll give weight to their claim when this is shown to be the case.

5 minutes ago, vertigo220 said:

AMD's response should have been to ask him to run some tests and report back the results to see if there actually was an issue.

No, if you want an RMA it's up to you to convincingly explain what's wrong with the item. "Games lag sometimes" is not good enough.

7 minutes ago, vertigo220 said:

it is possible, especially based on the findings noted in OP, that the card was defective due to poor assembly.

Quite the opposite, this being a trend with reference cards shows that there's likely nothing specifically wrong with this redditor's card and that reference models just have poor cooler design.

[IkeaGnome]

27 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Quite the opposite, this being a trend with reference cards shows that there's likely nothing specifically wrong with this redditor's card and that reference models just have poor cooler design.

There's quite a few...interesting... design differences. AMD cools the fets, but not the VRM. Amd also isn't using the back plate for any extra cooling. The 7900xtx that GN tore apart seems to have quite the odd contact pattern. There's what looks like a very large high spot in the middle of the copper plate on the cooler. 

Spoiler

AMD

 

Their pressure testing shows an even worse set up than the thermal paste does though. 

Spoiler

Compare to the XFX cooler design and the paste looks more evenly spread.

 

 

Once again though, this is nothing new. Here's from the 5700 xt which also had junction temps of 110C considered acceptable.

 

Yes there are some things AMD could have done better, but if it's within what they have been saying is their temperature specification for 3 years now, that's not an RMA. That's just being whiny to whine. 

[vertigo220]

28 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

AMD can talk all they want, 110C is NOT normal. And don't get me started this is winter season so imagine the temps in summer.

Funny thing is, that shit is the reason why I went for the GTX780 instead of R9 290. Yeah, 95C....

 

I already had bad experiences with hot GPU and CPU back in 2012-2014, never ever again.

The temps will be the same. A hotter environment doesn't make the chip produce less heat, it just makes it harder for it to dissipate the heat. So it's not the temps that will be affected, it will be its speed, because it will have to throttle more. People seem to think that the temps are what the CPU/GPU/etc are producing, but they're not. They're what they are. Two identical chips can be doing identical workloads and one can be reporting a temp of 80C while the other reports a temp of 110C, and it's not because the second one is hotter, but because the first one is dissipating that heat better. So just because your GPU is running cooler, that doesn't mean it's not generating just as much heat, and therefore dumping as much heat into your warm room. It might be, but you can't tell just based on that. A "hotter" GPU could very well be producing less heat but retaining it more vs a "cooler" GPU which is producing more but has a better heatsink.

 

110C could be normal, since most CPUs/GPUs, from what I've seen, typically have a max temp of ~105-110, and it's reasonable to believe they've pushed that higher, and their point is they've designed it that way to allow it to have more headroom, instead of throttling just to keep the temps to a more comfortable level for the user. It's like saying speeds of 150mph aren't normal for a car simply because they removed the governor. If the car can handle it without blowing the engine, it's normal, and it allows you to go faster. Throwing a governor on just so it's limited to 120 to make owners feel more comfortable about not blowing their engine, when it is designed to handle 150 without doing so, is only adding artificial limitations.

 

I think the real issue here isn't the temperature on its own, it's that (assuming this is the case) those temps are needed to reach the speeds advertised, because those speeds should be achievable at more reasonable temps. That's like saying 8500rpm is safe, which would be fine if you wanted to accelerate really fast, but not so good if you need to rev it that high just to drive around town. Either way, though, it again comes down to what the temps actually mean. Remove the cooling, and any modern GPU will hit 110C, assuming it doesn't throttle or shut off first. They all get that hot, even under typical, and likely even minimal, use. It's all about how fast the cooling can dissipate that heat, which is why it's a question of whether the cooling system is working as intended and it's still that hot, or the cooling system is defective, e.g. poor-quality or poorly applied thermal paste/pads like mentioned in OP. But the heat alone, without any context, is meaningless and is not an issue. Put another way, if the R9 290 ran 20% hotter than the 780 but performed 20% faster, you can't really say it's running hot, it's just doing more work and therefore generating more heat, and if you wanted it to run cooler, you could give up some performance and downclock it to reduce the heat, but if you want that extra performance, it's there, since it wasn't artificially limited just to run cooler.

 

37 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I can make that assumption when no detail is given in this "exposè" post where they went out of their way to document the "issue" regarding temperature. Why would they not include any evidence of a real issue while demanding an RMA? The burden of proof is on them here.

Then I'll give weight to their claim when this is shown to be the case.

No, if you want an RMA it's up to you to convincingly explain what's wrong with the item. "Games lag sometimes" is not good enough.

Quite the opposite, this being a trend with reference cards shows that there's likely nothing specifically wrong with this redditor's card and that reference models just have poor cooler design.

Fair enough. All I'm saying is people act like it's definitely not an issue and is just to be expected with reference cards when they don't actually know. They're making assumptions which, as you pointed out, are fair to make with him providing no evidence to the contrary (though I didn't check the Reddit post, so maybe he did), but stating it as fact. And your last statement is an interesting take about it, hadn't really thought of it that way, but I guess it's no different than buying a product that has bad reviews then being upset that it has the issues complained about in the reviews. Really, I don't have a ton of sympathy for people that jump onto a new product immediately without waiting. If you want to be on the bleeding edge and spend that kind of money to do so, you should be ready to take a hit every now and then.

[HenrySalayne]

It looks like the problem is related to either the TIM or the assembly of the graphics card. There doesn't seem to be an inherent flaw.