Should I take back my $225,000?

[AdamFromLTT]

A year after investing, has Framework upheld their end of the bargain? We take a look at how the company has grown over the past year, and how the repairable, upgradable laptop manufacturer is fairing. We also upgrade Linus' personal laptop with a brand new 12th-Gen Intel Processor.
 

 

[NF-A12x25]

the segue  

 

Linus Sus Tips

[suits]

Is anyone celling these enclosures for the mainboard for those of us without 3D printers or CNC machines?

[Sp1kyB]

14 minutes ago, suits said:

Is anyone celling these enclosures for the mainboard for those of us without 3D printers or CNC machines?

Where are you based? i have a 3D printer and can print/ship to you if you would like 

[Spindel]

So basically Linus changed most of the computer making little difference compared to getting a new computer…

 

Computer of theseus anyone?

 

While I can agree that almost all laptops have basically zero repairability what linus does in this video isn’t that far from just getting an entire new comouter and just recycling the old properly by jumping through some hoops.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

Title aside, I'm really impressed by the upgrade of the laptop. Framework doesn't yet sell in my region, when they open I'll likely be getting the DIY kit.

 

The 3D printed case for the spare board is just inspired, but selling the used board on the secondary market for someone else repair might be even better for reducing e-waste.

[dizmo]

1 minute ago, Spindel said:

So basically Linus changed most of the computer making little difference compared to getting a new computer…

 

Computer of theseus anyone?

 

While I can agree that almost all laptops have basically zero repairability what linus does in this video isn’t that far from just getting an entire new comouter and just recycling the old properly by jumping through some hoops.

All he replaced was the mainboard, a backplate, and the hinges. He didn't have to replace the backplate, it was simply showing off some of the items they have on offer. There's loads of components that weren't replaced during this video.

 

I wouldn't be a customer of this strat, but to say he replaced everything is just plain incorrect.

[dizmo]

Just now, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Title aside, I'm really impressed by the upgrade of the laptop. Framework doesn't yet sell in my region, when they open I'll likely be getting the DIY kit.

 

The 3D printed case for the spare board is just inspired, but selling the used board on the secondary market for someone else repair might be even better for reducing e-waste.

The market for that would be minuscule. You'd have better luck selling it as a miniPC.

[BaidDSB]

8 minutes ago, dizmo said:

 

I wouldn't be a customer of this strat,

Can you say why though?

 

Because this was absolutely mindblowing. Imagine if i can keep the chassis and other stuff for 10 years while upgrading the main board and some other parts once or twice

[Blademaster91]

30 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

The 3D printed case for the spare board is just inspired, but selling the used board on the secondary market for someone else repair might be even better for reducing e-waste.

I think Framework should offer an option to trade in the old board for a credit towards a new one, and offer used boards on the Framework marketplace, though i'm not sure if Framework is a large enough company to do that.

33 minutes ago, Spindel said:

So basically Linus changed most of the computer making little difference compared to getting a new computer…

 

Computer of theseus anyone?

 

While I can agree that almost all laptops have basically zero repairability what linus does in this video isn’t that far from just getting an entire new comouter and just recycling the old properly by jumping through some hoops.

Did you even watch the video?

The only thing he replaced was the motherboard, the display back panel and the stiffer hinges are new parts Framework are selling, and replacing the motherboard was about half the cost of buying a whole new laptop with the same CPU.

Also recycling is the last thing you should have to do with a laptop, if the company is selling upgrades or allowing you to replace components in it, reducing the amount of waste by upgrading it and reusing the laptop by replacing the motherboard is much less wasteful.

[ToboRobot]

23 minutes ago, Spindel said:

So basically Linus changed most of the computer making little difference compared to getting a new computer…

 

Computer of theseus anyone?

 

While I can agree that almost all laptops have basically zero repairability what linus does in this video isn’t that far from just getting an entire new comouter and just recycling the old properly by jumping through some hoops.

No, Linus changed parts to SHOW THE NEW PARTS AVAILIBLE TO YOU THE AUDIENCE.

[hishnash]

Upgrading a 1 year old working laptops mainboard for the vast majority of users is not a good more for the env, as even if they do go and make some small desk PC as Linus did out of the old part they are very unlikely to really need that. Would be much better for the envorment for them to sell the old laptop and buy a new one.

Linus should have had a look not he used market to see what they could get from a 1 year old framework, having a strong re-sale value for a long time really does improve the env impact as it encourages people to bother with the hassle of re-selling.

Also seems odd that he is praising Framework for using 70% recycled aluminium for the back case saying only a company that cares about the env would do this while in other videos he claims everything apple does for the env is just marketing when apples laptops are 100% recycled aluminium.  (and yes the reason apple is using recycled aluminium, just like framework, is not really env it is cost).

 

[hishnash]

2 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think Framework should offer an option to trade in the old board for a credit towards a new one, and offer used boards on the Framework marketplace, though i'm not sure if Framework is a large enough company to do that.

Yes the would be a good environmental move. 

[Middcore]

8 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think Framework should offer an option to trade in the old board for a credit towards a new one, and offer used boards on the Framework marketplace, though i'm not sure if Framework is a large enough company to do that.

 

There's a lot of possibilities surrounding this that only work at scale, and thus will probably never happen. 

[Nystemy]

Personally still think the modules should have been a cm wider or so. There is room for it in the case and it would allow 2 USB type A ports to sit next to each other on the same module. And also allow space for more involved custom modules. Currently most of the internals of a module will get consumed by connectors.

 

As a first generation modular laptop form factor, it works in its current form.

 

Though still waiting for a Nordic ISO keyboard legend and official sales channels in the Nordic region before I consider buying one.

[SprinkledDount]

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

The market for that would be minuscule. You'd have better luck selling it as a miniPC.

The market may be minuscule but the people buying this laptop are already a small market and I feel that the tow markets overlap pretty well.

 

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

Upgrading a 1 year old working laptops mainboard for the vast majority of users is not a good more for the env, as even if they do go and make some small desk PC as Linus did out of the old part they are very unlikely to really need that. Would be much better for the envorment for them to sell the old laptop and buy a new one.

I agree that upgrading a laptop after a year is not an environmentally friendly thing to do but I think that this is more of a looking into the future with what there is now. I think that many of the people who buy this product aren't going to upgrade the motherboard now but a few years from now with how cpus have been getting it might look good for them to upgrade then.

[hishnash]

23 minutes ago, SprinkledDount said:

aren't going to upgrade the motherboard now but a few years from now

Absoultutly however there is the question there if the mainboard in a few years will be compatible with the existing parts, I expect its not economic for framework to produce a mainboard just for the legacy product line so if the mainboard in 3 to 5 years is still compatible (from a size/power/connector etc) perspective then thats great but I would not be surprised if in 3 to 4 years framework might well end up with in-compatible parts.  

Maintaining a compatible board over many years can be very hard as the other components you currently depend upon (battery charging systems), display panel controllers/connectors will no longer be in mass production as the industry moves on making these older parts very hard to source at a good price (Framework does not have high enough volume orders to justify a display maker keeping a legacy display line online for them). And inzderpenantly of this users over time will expect future laptops to have newer features (such as the display).

For this reason I would not be surprised if a mainboard upgrade in 3 to 5 years is more of a full internals swap were there only think that you keep from your old laptop is the case and maybe keyboard. All the other integrals (including costly ones like screen and battery) will likly not be compatible with the new board.

From a e-wast perspective (and a $) if your old laptop is still working at this point you are better off either trading in the parts (if they offer that) or selling the old laptop and buying a new one. 

In general the modular upgrade solution were your doing this to upgrade something that is working is only a good e-wast solution if you would otherwise throw away the old device you replace. But for good laptops if they are still working replacing the battery might be all you need to give them another 5 years of life for a less demanding user, that is much better for the env and by providing that fully working older laptop to such a user they are then not going to go buy a new $400 crap-plastic laptop that will be dead within 2 years to the point were it has no resale/re-use function.

[afitter]

There's a note from the editor in the video that the battery life issues will be fixed soon. Is there a source for this? I can't find anything online. I've got an 11th gen batch 4 running Ubuntu, so I'm really interested better battery life.

[Arika]

That title is incredibly disrespectful to Framework. "Hey, i'm going to use my investment as clickbait, and scare the absolute shit out of you by threatening to take my money back (but i'm not, because i'm actually happy with my investment)"

[Middcore]

57 minutes ago, Arika S said:

That title is incredibly disrespectful to Framework. "Hey, i'm going to use my investment as clickbait, and scare the absolute shit out of you by threatening to take my money back (but i'm not, because i'm actually happy with my investment)"

 

Well, in the grand scheme of things, clickbait titles like this get more views, which leads to more revenue for LMG, which means more money for Linus, which means he can up his investment in Framework. 

[rikitikitavi]

6 hours ago, Spindel said:

Computer of theseus anyone?

It feels like the easiness of such upgrade might make an annual mobo upgrade a thing... if that's the case, then the environmental pursuit is somewhat worthless.

[hishnash]

37 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

It feels like the easiness of such upgrade might make an annual mobo upgrade a thing... if that's the case, then the environmental pursuit is somewhat worthless.

I would be very surprised if they will be able to keep backwards parts computability for very long going forwards, if they want to offer a better screen next year or find it hard to sort the current one, or need to offer better battier trackpad, webcam etc ensuring the motherboard is always backwards compatible is not going to be trivial and from a cost perspective it will not be economic for them to build in backwards compatible support so you will then be upgrading more than the motherboard as it will also require to you replace your screen or your camera etc... 

In this video Linus made it sound like apple intentionally made the M2 13" MBP not be compatible board drop in upgrade from the M1 model but he failed not note that to do that apple would have had to either not update the trackpad (likly resulting in difficulty sourcing the chip they got rid of from it) or building in dedicated support to the M2 mainboard to support the older trackpad when less than 0.0001% of users would do this upgrade even if apple offered It on there website as parts to upgrade as if you have an M1 MBP 13" you really do not need to upgrade to an M2 1.5 years later. 

[harryk]

As cool as the Framework laptop is from a tinkerer and enthusiast standpoint, I still do not see real value in the upgradeability. 

 

Right now Framework sells a full laptop with 12th gen i5 for $1049. They also sell an upgrade kit with the same 12th gen i5 for $538. So a hypothetical user with an existing Framework laptop could swap and upgrade their motherboard for $538. Or sell their current machine for $250 (made up number but seems reasonable if not low) and then purchase an entirely new machine for $1049. 

 

In summary: upgrade for $538, or completely new machine for $799.

 

While upgrading is less expensive, personally I would likely spring for the new machine which likely includes other minor or major upgrades and no wear. Especially since a typical user likely upgrades every few years.

 

Meanwhile, the old machine continues to be useful with a new user for at least a little while. Versus an orphaned motherboard which even if it can be repurposed as a mini PC, quite frankly is half a step away from being e-waste. IMO all this attention to upgradeability and repairability is misplaced and would be much better oriented towards developing methods for actually recycling e-waste which is going to be created no matter what. 

 

[WhitetailAni]

Has it actually been almost a year

 

oh god it has

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[rikitikitavi]

25 minutes ago, hishnash said:

I would be very surprised if they will be able to keep backwards parts computability for very long going forwards, if they want to offer a better screen next year or find it hard to sort the current one, or need to offer better battier trackpad, webcam etc ensuring the motherboard is always backwards compatible is not going to be trivial and from a cost perspective it will not be economic for them to build in backwards compatible support so you will then be upgrading more than the motherboard as it will also require to you replace your screen or your camera etc... 

Well, how else they gonna sell all the new shiny parts - even AMD is finally dropping AM4. Knowing PCMR - majority will be seduced into going full throttle, just like in the video: backplate, hinge, mobo, display cover in dif color etc. So, someone already buying into this ecosystem won’t be ‘offended’ by changing more parts than they need for compatibility reasons only. It still might be somewhat cheaper than buying a whole new laptop… minus not selling your previous one… and who knows if anyone needs/wants to buy these parts… they are so last season lol

 

26 minutes ago, hishnash said:

not update the trackpad

New trackpad on M2 MBP? Chassis is changed too?

 

27 minutes ago, hishnash said:

if you have an M1 MBP 13" you really do not need to upgrade to an M2 1.5 years later. 

The point of the video is ‘the freedom to upgrade, only in Framework’… even though (like you said) it is a needless upgrade if you buy a good product from the start… unless you need to be on the cutting edge (I highly doubt that’s the case for this laptop).

 

To be fair, I would love to reuse my decade old MacBookPros/Airs’ chassis with any AppleSilicon for a lower price even if it means basically throwing away everything, but unlike Framework, MB’s design is a thing. I doubt that FW users won’t update the design given the chance… cause it’s… lacking.