Should I take back my $225,000?

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

uuuuuh so Linus claimed that to get the 1280P performance in a new laptop you need to spend $2K? 

 

no you don't... lol. the M2 blows it away and you can buy a Mac with an M2 for way less than $2K... 

 

[Blademaster91]

I knew people would look for ways to dump on Framework, not surprising at all considering that a Framework is the complete opposite of a mac, you have control over the hardware you bought and you're open to tinker with it which is just mind blowing when most laptop makers are moving to solder everything in to save a few dollars while getting you to buy another laptop in 2-3 years when you don't have enough RAM.

[Blademaster91]

7 hours ago, hishnash said:

Upgrading a 1 year old working laptops mainboard for the vast majority of users is not a good more for the env, as even if they do go and make some small desk PC as Linus did out of the old part they are very unlikely to really need that. Would be much better for the envorment for them to sell the old laptop and buy a new one.

Most people don't need to upgrade after 1 year, the motherboard upgrades are more of an enthusiast thing, although even having the option to is nice IMO, and 12th gen is a significant improvement over 11th gen mobile cpu's. I don't see a reason to sell the old one if you can simply swap in a new faster part, and upgrading instead of buying new is much better for the environment if you don't need to buy a new laptop.

7 hours ago, hishnash said:

Linus should have had a look not he used market to see what they could get from a 1 year old framework, having a strong re-sale value for a long time really does improve the env impact as it encourages people to bother with the hassle of re-selling.

IMO swapping a motherboard is a lot less hassle than selling off the old laptop then looking for a new one which still has all the features I want.

7 hours ago, hishnash said:

Also seems odd that he is praising Framework for using 70% recycled aluminium for the back case saying only a company that cares about the env would do this while in other videos he claims everything apple does for the env is just marketing when apples laptops are 100% recycled aluminium.  (and yes the reason apple is using recycled aluminium, just like framework, is not really env it is cost).

It also seems odd to be praising Apple for using more recycled aluminum when the the laptop isn't serviceable.

[Psittac]

I gave my laptop to my nephew, and when the time comes for me to need a laptop I'm without a doubt getting one of these.  I love the concept

[maxtraxv3]

real question is can you just buy the upgrade  motherboard and cpu stuff and just use that as a desktop without buying anything else?

[rikitikitavi]

18 minutes ago, maxtraxv3 said:

real question is can you just buy the upgrade  motherboard and cpu stuff and just use that as a desktop without buying anything else?

Afaik yes… however, what would be the purpose of that? You will be better off buying something like a Minisforum or a MacMini

[Imbadatnames]

So the video was literally just an ad filled with lies. 
 

Also framework is a terrible idea for the environment. 

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

41 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

So the video was literally just an ad filled with lies. 

What lies did you spot? Other than the bad title and linus yoloing the upgrade without guide, everything else seemed legit.

 

3 hours ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

uuuuuh so Linus claimed that to get the 1280P performance in a new laptop you need to spend $2K? 

 

no you don't... lol. the M2 blows it away and you can buy a Mac with an M2 for way less than $2K... 

It's not obvious to me the M2 is best.

 

Ram 16GB Hdd 1TB is 1899$ for the M2, 1833$ for the Framework

 

The Air has better battery life and a better screen

Framework has better IO and can be expanded and repaired more easily and cheaply

CPU wise, there are workloads that favour the M2, workloads that favour the Intel

With M2 you are locked into Apple ecosystem, with framework you can use windows/linux

Personally I would go for the Wintel framework every time. Some programs I use simply do not run on apple, I'm just waiting for Framework to start selling in my region. Also I love assembling stuffs, having the DIY option for cheaper is perfect for me.

[Imbadatnames]

21 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

What lies did you spot? Other than the bad title and linus yoloing the upgrade without guide, everything else seemed legit.

You haven’t seen the top of this thread about the 2K laptop? The environment stuff is also a crock of shit. 

21 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

 

It's not obvious to me the M2 is best.

 

Ram 16GB Hdd 1TB is 1899$ for the M2, 1833$ for the Framework

 

The Air has better battery life and a better screen

Framework has better IO and can be expanded and repaired more easily and cheaply

CPU wise, there are workloads that favour the M2, workloads that favour the Intel

With M2 you are locked into Apple ecosystem, with framework you can use windows/linux

Personally I would go for the Wintel framework every time. Some programs I use simply do not run on apple, I'm just waiting for Framework to start selling in my region. Also I love assembling stuffs, having the DIY option for cheaper is perfect for me.

1900 is less than 2K dude, you also don’t need 16GB for MacOS and why the duck would you need 1TB on a laptop? 
 

You’ve never heard of a VM?

 

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

New trackpad on M2 MBP? Chassis is changed too?

 

No new M2 MBA 13" just changed the trackpad, the M1 model (like the older intel models) had a chip on the trackpad circuit board (with its own firmware etc) that was responsible for converting raw sensor into xy touch locations.  On the trackpad the M2 is using this chip is no longer present and the linux on M1/2 team noticed that there is a new little core (one of over 14) within the M2 that is there to do this task. So the old trackpad talked sent x,y locations to the cpu (in a high level format) and the new one sends basically raw sensor data to the cpu.
 

 

 

[hishnash]

29 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

With M2 you are locked into Apple ecosystem, with framework you can use windows/linux

Macs are not locked down at all. This is a common misunderstanding in the PCMR community they think Macs and macOS are iOS they are very very different products. MacOS and Macs are in fact less locked down than your typically windows machines (including framework). 

 

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I don't see a reason to sell the old one if you can simply swap in a new faster part, and upgrading instead of buying new is much better for the environment if you don't need to buy a new laptop.

the 'old' (1 year old part) you take out and throw away is much worse than if you sell the laptop and buy a new one since the person you sell the laptop to will then have an entier laptop to use so they do not buy a new one. 

 

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

It also seems odd to be praising Apple for using more recycled aluminum when the the laptop isn't serviceable.

I was not praising apple was just pointing out that praising Framework for something were they are well behind Apple in, for something Linus as explicitly said is just marketing before.  If Linus wants to praise framework he should do it for things were they are leading not were they are behind. 

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

18 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Macs are not locked down at all.

Can I install windows in an M2 laptop and run Quartus FPGA with drivers for the blasters? Or VS Code with drivers and toolchain for the Risc-V USB-C bootloader?

 

24 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

You haven’t seen the top of this thread about the 2K laptop

The M2 is full of fixed function accelerators. If your workload makes use of them, it slays a general purpose processor, if your workload doesn't use them, it's dead silicon. It's why there is so much variation in benchmark results. It's not a given that an M2 will always beat an Intel or AMD, even for power efficiency. https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i7-1280p-vs-apple-m2

24 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

you also don’t need 16GB for MacOS and why the duck would you need 1TB on a laptop? 

It's very Apple like to declare what I do or do not need  Framework sells storage expansion cards too, smaller than portable HDD, and useful to move work folders around or do daily backups with bitlocked storage.

[Jose Paul]

14 hours ago, AdamFromLTT said:

A year after investing, has Framework upheld their end of the bargain? We take a look at how the company has grown over the past year, and how the repairable, upgradable laptop manufacturer is fairing. We also upgrade Linus' personal laptop with a brand new 12th-Gen Intel Processor.
 

 

The one thing that everyone is asking for,is the ability to return used items back to Framework. We all aren't LTT's of ourselves, so we will simply keep that old motherboard away and deny it's existence rather than making an another PC out of it.

 

What Framework could do though, (Eh heem... Linus Tone imitating ) is that bringing a portal, where users can return their used hardware considering the wear and tear and purchased date, for money or in exchange with new modules and extra money. It will not only help e-waste management but also the budget management of the user.

 

This "returned" products can then be refurbished by the engineer's out there at Framework and can be sold as refurbished products on their site for a lower money. Like definitely I will choose refurbished ones if I'm low on budget and might not consider paying too much for a new module (because sometimes, those modules are a bit expensive).

 

With this method both users and Framework can benifit. User's with much lesser budget can be attracted towards these modular laptops, and Framework can get a new range of products to be sold. This is just an in-depth explaination of what others were telling out there in this forum. I think our words will be taken in serious hands,and can figure out a way to do this. The community is looking forward Framework. We want to see you grow

[RandomLight]

This is my rant feel free to ignore it if you don't like it

Framework laptops come without a dedicated GPU which makes me feel sad when looking at the prices of these laptops.
Framework modules approach is nice but with only 4 slots available it's a no-brainer, 3 of them will be taken for (Charging, USB-A/USB-C,  HDMI/DP, ?) so you only really get to choose 1 free module slot which might be Ethernet at this point if it even exists. (if they became 6 modules slots it will be so much better IMO)

Framework laptops doesn't have a touch screen option, although they are more suited towards this since they don't have a dedicated GPU.

If I had $1200-1400 to spend on a cause I wouldn't mind supporting Framework but if I wanted to spend them on buying a Laptop it wouldn't be a framework one because of the value I'm losing if I bought it at the moment.

I will revisit this topic in the future if they introduced anything new.

[Imbadatnames]

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Can I install windows in an M2 laptop and run Quartus FPGA with drivers for the blasters? Or VS Code with drivers and toolchain for the Risc-V USB-C bootloader?

Depends if windows allows it to run on windows for arm or not. 

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

 

The M2 is full of fixed function accelerators. If your workload makes use of them, it slays a general purpose processor, if your workload doesn't use them, it's dead silicon. It's why there is so much variation in benchmark results. It's not a given that an M2 will always beat an Intel or AMD, even for power efficiency. https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/intel-core-i7-1280p-vs-apple-m2

You posted a link where the M2 beats Intel in everything it should do. The 1280p has 6 more cores it should win in MC and by a wider margin than it actually does plus the iGPU on the Intel machine is a joke. Bearing in mind if you’re downing 1800/1900 on a MacBook you’d be getting the M1 Pro 14” MBP which destroys the 1280p 

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

It's very Apple like to declare what I do or do not need  Framework sells storage expansion cards too, smaller than portable HDD, and useful to move work folders around or do daily backups with bitlocked storage.

You mean the expansion cards that cost 2x or more than an external SSD and are a nightmare to plug into anything that isn’t a framework laptop? 

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

32 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

You posted a link where the M2 beats Intel in everything it should do. The 1280p has 6 more cores it should win in MC and by a wider margin than it actually does plus the iGPU on the Intel machine is a joke. Bearing in mind if you’re downing 1800/1900 on a MacBook you’d be getting the M1 Pro 14” MBP which destroys the 1280p 

Obviously an high thread high performance part is going to beat the M2 in multicore benchmarks, that's not what M2 was designed for. And things that won't run on M2 gets a zero score. M2 is great for what it is, it's not great for everything.

[hishnash]

2 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Can I install windows in an M2 laptop and run Quartus FPGA with drivers for the blasters? Or VS Code with drivers and toolchain for the Risc-V USB-C bootloader?

 

Lack of windows support for the hardware does not make the hardware locked down, you can install any OS you like but that OS is going to need to support the hardware. You cant install windows on RISC-V cpus either.

Neither the hardware not the OS is locked down, yes some of the default settings in macOS are restrictive but these are settings you can change them (yes the more extreme settings will require you to use the terminal but if your going to be patching the kernel needing to use the terminal is not exactly locking down the OS). 

[hishnash]

1 minute ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Obviously an high thread high performance part is going to beat the M2 in multicore benchmarks, that's not what M2 was designed for. And things that won't run on M2 gets a zero score. M2 is great for what it is, it's not great for everything.

Cinebench is not a good benchmark unless your use case is CPU rendering in an out of data version of Cinema 4D (the rendering engine on ARM hardly makes use of SIMD let along any other vector ops).  I never understood with the PC space considers it a valid benchmark, in the end the only valid benchmark of a device is it running the task you are going to use the device for anything else is pointless. 

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, Jose Paul said:

This "returned" products can then be refurbished by the engineer's out there at Framework and can be sold as refurbished products on their site for a lower money. Like definitely I will choose refurbished ones if I'm low on budget and might not consider paying too much for a new module (because sometimes, those modules are a bit expensive).

 

Economically for framework might make more sense to use these re-furbished parts as spares for customer warranty customer repairs. This is what vendors like apple do when you bring in a device and the just `swap it out` they send the old device to a re-furbe centre that will repair it so when the next person comes into the store to fix something they get that refuredbed parts from another customers returned laptop.  This means the OEM does not need to redirect as many new parts to repair ensuring they can sell as many laptops as pozsslibe important when supply constrained as they all are right now. Apple (and some other OEMs) also do this for trade in devices were these devices end up contributing to the parts pool, they will only put them on the refurbished store if they have a surplice of used parts for that product line.  Doing this would help framework ship more new laptops as well. 

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

21 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Cinebench is not a good benchmark unless your use case is CPU rendering in an out of data version of Cinema 4D (the rendering engine on ARM hardly makes use of SIMD let along any other vector ops).  I never understood with the PC space considers it a valid benchmark, in the end the only valid benchmark of a device is it running the task you are going to use the device for anything else is pointless. 

I do not consider cinebench, geekbenck, nor passmarks good benchmarks. I consider the number output of benchmarks just to make an initial sorting of parts relative power before I decide to buy something. Even geekbench will accurately rank the M2 as being overwhelmingly faster than an i7 6500u.

My first worry is compatibility with the applications I need. If an application does not run or has no drivers, it gets a score of zero. All apple products are like this. I could use an apple machine as secondary machine for web browsing, but I can't even reliably game on them, so for me Apple is no go because of compatibility.

 

My second worry is stability. I want my machine to run without doing lots of maintenance and fine tuning. So no overclock, no water cooling. I also do periodic backups because I don't trust HDD and SSD to survive, and it saved my data once already!

 

Then I worry about noise, performance and price and everything else come after that

23 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Lack of windows support for the hardware does not make the hardware locked down, you can install any OS you like but that OS is going to need to support the hardware. You cant install windows on RISC-V cpus either.

It does in my book. I cannot install Mac OS on a machine I build DIY, and Apple goes to extreme length to make parts (even spares) as incompatible as possible. If that is not locked down, I don't know what it is. It's honestly worth a premium for me a laptop that saves me time when I repaste and clean.

 

I do not fault Apple for their choice, they got a very profitable businness model that provide good reliable products for their niche. It's just not doeable for other uses. Even if the M2 costed 300$, it would still be an extra brick in my backpack that cannot do some of the things I need or like doing, so it still would be a no buy for me. I would need to carry something else with me anyway, and that thing would be able to do everything the M2 can, and more, making the M2 extra weight.

 

A Wintel doing some tasks 20% solwer is better than an M2 doing some task 100% slower for me. (I would be mostly fine with a Winamd, it would still cause trouble with some specialized applications). Every few years I try linux in dual boot, but I end up abbandoning it for the same reasons: Everything Linux does, Windows does too (sometime worse sometimes better). Many things Windows does, Linux doesn't do at all and I give up.

17 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Economically for framework might make more sense to use these re-furbished parts as spares for customer warranty customer repairs.

That would be awesome, more manufacturers (including Framework) should do that. Framework taking back older boards from customers, refurbishing them, and selling them as refurbished spares would be great for everyone involved!

[Imbadatnames]

30 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Obviously an high thread high performance part is going to beat the M2 in multicore benchmarks, that's not what M2 was designed for. And things that won't run on M2 gets a zero score. M2 is great for what it is, it's not great for everything.

Did you not read? I said the CPU with 6 cores extra should win at MC but doesn’t win as well as it should considering it has 150% more performance cores and 2x the efficiency cores. 
 

You also ignored that if you’re spending that much on a MacBook you’d be getting the M1 Pro instead which smashes the 1280p in everything.

 

What about the iGPU scores too? You ignoring those too? 
 

What about those overpriced expansion cards? You’re dropping your own points at an alarming rate. 

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Jose Paul said:

The one thing that everyone is asking for,is the ability to return used items back to Framework. We all aren't LTT's of ourselves, so we will simply keep that old motherboard away and deny it's existence rather than making an another PC out of it.

 

What Framework could do though, (Eh heem... Linus Tone imitating ) is that bringing a portal, where users can return their used hardware considering the wear and tear and purchased date, for money or in exchange with new modules and extra money. It will not only help e-waste management but also the budget management of the user.

 

This "returned" products can then be refurbished by the engineer's out there at Framework and can be sold as refurbished products on their site for a lower money. Like definitely I will choose refurbished ones if I'm low on budget and might not consider paying too much for a new module (because sometimes, those modules are a bit expensive).

 

With this method both users and Framework can benifit. User's with much lesser budget can be attracted towards these modular laptops, and Framework can get a new range of products to be sold. This is just an in-depth explaination of what others were telling out there in this forum. I think our words will be taken in serious hands,and can figure out a way to do this. The community is looking forward Framework. We want to see you grow

Until this happens, I feel like Framework is just another company trying to capitalize on the green movement without actually helping the environment out.

 

Encouraging people to consumer and upgrade is the worst thing a truly eco-conscious company would do.

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle are great words of advice. Something I don't think many people realize is that they are also ordered after the biggest environmental impact. The problem I have with framework is that they go against the first two Rs, and do nothing regarding the third.

 

Reduce - The biggest thing you can do to help the environment is to stop buying so many things. That means keeping things for longer. Don't buy stuff just because it is fun. Buy it because you have to. Do you actually need that new shirt or water bottle? No? Then buying it is bad for the environment. Did they actually need to upgrade from the 11th gen to 12th gen Intel processor? If not, then it is bad for the environment. It is directly going against the "reduce" part.
Sadly, a lot of the buzz I see regarding Framework is just that you can upgrade it. It encourages people to consume rather than reduce.

 

Reuse - What happens when the average Joe is going to upgrade his Framework laptop? They are going to end up with a spare mainboard that they can't use. That mainboard will just end up in the trash, which goes against the "reuse" part. If they had bought an entirely new laptop instead, the old one could have been reused. Sure it would have needed more parts like a screen, but those parts are needed to use the mainboard anyway. Making 2 screens and 2 mainboards is better for the environment than making 2 screens and 3 mainboards, one of which ends up sitting in a bin somewhere.

Encouraging the upgrade of things like the mainboard goes against the "reuse" part. Some might say that in the future, where the market is full of spare parts then we might be able to reuse more parts if they are from Framework than if they were from a different company, but that assumes that the compatibility won't change (will a framework mainboard made 8 years from now fit the same chassi and screen sold today) and that the market will be big enough for this to happen (doesn't matter if a Swedish person want to buy a particular part if the only seller is in the US).

 

 

I don't like this idea of doing something bad today (which is what Framework does), just because it might pay off in the future. 

[hishnash]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It is directly going against the "reduce" part.
Sadly, a lot of the buzz I see regarding Framework is just that you can upgrade it. It encourages people to consume rather than reduce.

They could do something to help, price the upgrade parts with a markup that you get back if you return your old part. Then use those old parts as sparse for when they need to do warranty repairs of other customers.  This would help them reduce the number of parts they need to produce and help re-use these old parts and push consumers to do the right thing.  (using secondhand/refurbished parts to do repairs is industry standard). 

[ToboRobot]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Until this happens, I feel like Framework is just another company trying to capitalize on the green movement without actually helping the environment out.

 

Encouraging people to consumer and upgrade is the worst thing a truly eco-conscious company would do.

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle are great words of advice. Something I don't think many people realize is that they are also ordered after the biggest environmental impact. The problem I have with framework is that they go against the first two Rs, and do nothing regarding the third.

 

Reduce - The biggest thing you can do to help the environment is to stop buying so many things. That means keeping things for longer. Don't buy stuff just because it is fun. Buy it because you have to. Do you actually need that new shirt or water bottle? No? Then buying it is bad for the environment. Did they actually need to upgrade from the 11th gen to 12th gen Intel processor? If not, then it is bad for the environment. It is directly going against the "reduce" part.
Sadly, a lot of the buzz I see regarding Framework is just that you can upgrade it. It encourages people to consume rather than reduce.

 

Reuse - What happens when the average Joe is going to upgrade his Framework laptop? They are going to end up with a spare mainboard that they can't use. That mainboard will just end up in the trash, which goes against the "reuse" part. If they had bought an entirely new laptop instead, the old one could have been reused. Sure it would have needed more parts like a screen, but those parts are needed to use the mainboard anyway. Making 2 screens and 2 mainboards is better for the environment than making 2 screens and 3 mainboards, one of which ends up sitting in a bin somewhere.

Encouraging the upgrade of things like the mainboard goes against the "reuse" part. Some might say that in the future, where the market is full of spare parts then we might be able to reuse more parts if they are from Framework than if they were from a different company, but that assumes that the compatibility won't change (will a framework mainboard made 8 years from now fit the same chassi and screen sold today) and that the market will be big enough for this to happen (doesn't matter if a Swedish person want to buy a particular part if the only seller is in the US).

 

 

I don't like this idea of doing something bad today (which is what Framework does), just because it might pay off in the future. 

I understand your criticism but don't think it's substantiated in fact.

Framework isn't encouraging people to wastefully upgrade (other than Linus who is doing so for demonstration), but offering the option to people to upgrade to reuse existing parts rather than simply replace an old unit with a brand new one.

Framework helps reduce waste when a laptop gets damaged or needs repairs.  And there are novel ways to reuse it such as the mainboard becoming a desktop.

Given that eBay and other platforms exist, I don't think framework needs to provide a portal or marketplace for used parts, people can do that themselves.

If you compare Framework to a mythical perfect laptop it isn't great, but what options on the market are better at reusability and reparability?

Is Framework doing something worse than any other laptop maker?