Jobs for Disabled people

[Wictorian]

I've seen so many people worrying about how disabled people should be taken care of (given free wages mostly). However I really don't understand why they need free wages unless they are both physically and mentally handicapped. I know they may need extra care however it seems that is not part of the problem in most arguments.

[Andreas Lilja]

Yeah disabled people are totally making bank, especially in North America. 

[TetraSky]

So... What are you advocating here? That disabled people should not get anything handed to them just because they are disabled?

I'm not sure a tech forum is the place to talk about this.

[Ravendarat]

What spurred this on? Did I miss some breaking news of some kind? And for what its worth my dad was 100% blind and was a computer programmer for a Canadian University dating back to the early to mid 80s and only retired after also having a stroke which gave him only partial use of his left hand. Growing up we definitely werent being "taken care of" by the government

[thrasher_565]

its really depends on the disability or mental state. at my store we get a guy in and all he dose is fills milk for 4 hours another store i worked at had a guy with down syndrome. he just "cleans" things and and hour sweep... but hes been doing it for years... like 40+ not many make it to that age... loves his cds thow he gets at the library (now 76) i remember listing to now 4...

[Wictorian]

8 hours ago, TetraSky said:

So... What are you advocating here? That disabled people should not get anything handed to them just because they are disabled?

I'm not sure a tech forum is the place to talk about this.

yeah it is the place to talk about this. I know some places pay really low amounts to disabled people and that's not fair. But my point is I don't get why disabled people should be paid money without working. 

[Wictorian]

8 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

What spurred this on? Did I miss some breaking news of some kind? And for what its worth my dad was 100% blind and was a computer programmer for a Canadian University dating back to the early to mid 80s and only retired after also having a stroke which gave him only partial use of his left hand. Growing up we definitely werent being "taken care of" by the government

No it is just part of some big discussion. My point is disabled people can contribute to the economy just like your dad. I'm not even saying they get paid by the government, some people are arguing they should.

[Wictorian]

7 hours ago, Caroline said:

>be disabled in any way

>get $50 in govt aid each month

>anti-welfare guy wins office somehow

>"these disabled people are living like kings off our taxes for free!!!"

>"they gotta find jobs you know, how come these cripples aren't working??? that's outrageous"

>govt cuts all benefits 

>ohno.jpg

>try to find job

>no company wants a disabled person

>finally die

The free-market ancap anons dream. Can't have budget cuts if there's no budget.

ok so the problem here is "no company wants a disabled person" so we should try to solve that, no?

[Wictorian]

3 hours ago, thrasher_565 said:

its really depends on the disability or mental state. at my store we get a guy in and all he dose is fills milk for 4 hours another store i worked at had a guy with down syndrome. he just "cleans" things and and hour sweep... but hes been doing it for years... like 40+ not many make it to that age... loves his cds thow he gets at the library (now 76) i remember listing to now 4...

here in Turkiye there is a cafe that is run solely by people with down syndrome.

[Donut417]

11 hours ago, Wictorian said:

people should be taken care of (given free wages mostly).

Well first, in the US generally if they are getting Government money that means the Government has determined they cant work due to their disability. If they get caught working the Government breaks its foot off in their ass and they loose their benefits. To be clear, from what I have read a lot of the time you have to fight to even get the benefits. There are many disabled people who work in the US. Hell the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed in to law to protect these people. All employers in the US have to provide reasonable accommodation to those with a disability. 

 

 

[ToboRobot]

1 hour ago, Wictorian said:

But my point is I don't get why disabled people should be paid money without working. 

Because they cannot work.  

You have mentioned that some people with disabilities can work, such as those with down syndrome working in a cafe.  Some programs like that exist, but often they cost more to run than they make in profit, and are actually more like charities to care for people and give them purpose than businesses that operate on profit and loss statements.

So essentially people are unable to work both because their disability prevents them from working to support themselves long term (some people look like they can work, and may be able to do so for a short while, before their disability catches up with them).

 

[Mihle]

Some people just can't work, for example people with bad stage of CFS/ME.

 

Other people that gets physically disabled and can't walk when they are 50s year old but still have a working arm can't really do much because most jobs that they can do require more schooling.

 

Also, people that becomes disabled through their lifetime would use plenty years on settling in to their new situation before managing to figure something out.

 

Just some examples.

Don't any of those deserve to live?

 

Other still able to do some kind of work disabled  groups it's because they would still work plenty slower than non disabled people, and even if it isn't that much it's still a stigma against them that they will. In a capitalistic society, workplaces prefer not to hire people that they think will work plenty slower without any other benefit.

 

A solution to that tho would be for example for government to pay parts of disabled people's salary, I would like that to happen more, but it's still money from the government.

 

Another way system could be improved is that disabled people should still be able to work 50% or whatever they can and not loose all money from government, like they do quite a few countries.

 

Also, from the eyes of a outsider, a disabled person can also look like it's capable of doing more than it actually is, plenty of disabilities makes a lot of what they do require a lot more effort and energy, so they aren't capable of doing the same amount for the same length every day.

[Wictorian]

16 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Some people just can't work, for example people with bad stage of CFS/ME.

 

Other people that gets physically disabled and can't walk when they are 50s year old but still have a working arm can't really do much because most jobs that they can do require more schooling.

 

Also, people that becomes disabled through their lifetime would use plenty years on settling in to their new situation before managing to figure something out.

 

Just some examples.

Don't any of those deserve to live?

 

Other still able to do some kind of work disabled  groups it's because they would still work plenty slower than non disabled people, and even if it isn't that much it's still a stigma against them that they will. In a capitalistic society, workplaces prefer not to hire people that they think will work plenty slower without any other benefit.

 

A solution to that tho would be for example for government to pay parts of disabled people's salary, I would like that to happen more, but it's still money from the government.

I know some people cant work. However how big of a chunk is this? 

[Donut417]

50 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

I know some people cant work. However how big of a chunk is this? 

What does it matter? The only way you're getting disability payments is if the government has determined you're eligible. The way they do this is you are required to go see a doctor, if your doctor says, yeah this guy cant work or has x level of disability then the government pays out. To be clear, it's not like these people are living that Bill Gates, most of the people are disability are barely getting buy. 

 

Next your going to  complain about the people are on Welfare getting food stamps and Medicaid. The whole point of disability and welfare for that reason is to help those in need, so this way they aint living on the street. Even then we have a lot of people homeless. 

[Motifator]

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

What does it matter? The only way you're getting disability payments is if the government has determined you're eligible. The way they do this is you are required to go see a doctor, if your doctor says, yeah this guy cant work or has x level of disability then the government pays out. To be clear, it's not like these people are living that Bill Gates, most of the people are disability are barely getting buy. 

 

Next your going to  complain about the people are on Welfare getting food stamps and Medicaid. The whole point of disability and welfare for that reason is to help those in need, so this way they aint living on the street. Even then we have a lot of people homeless. 

Actually, people with disabilities get more benefits than just payouts. They're also able to buy cars for WAY cheaper than a regular person in some of the third world countries. I'm sure there are also other benefits to being disabled when it comes to most things with money.

I'd agree with the OP that there should be some form of regulation to at least some of these.

[cmndr]

If you're sufficiently mentally handicapped, you might as well be physically handicapped.

My first job in retail had a disabled person "helping out" - his wages were subsidized by the government and he had a social worker pop in.
It's very possible that it would've been cheaper to have just had him be unemployed. He was NOT all that productive.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you're VERY incapable of movement, then your ability to learn and grow and do intellectual things ends up hampered as well.

 

2 hours ago, Wictorian said:

No it is just part of some big discussion. My point is disabled people can contribute to the economy just like your dad. I'm not even saying they get paid by the government, some people are arguing they should.

There are a lot of jobs out there where it's easier to do more harm than good.

Not every person is capable of doing more good than harm.

As far as "taking care" of these people - that's a tough topic. "why don't they just work?" is an overly simplistic question though.

 

 

It's definitely possible to have more people do more things and to better contribute to society. Let's be blunt though - getting 2% more productivity out of one smart person will probably have a bigger positive impact than having one mentally dull person put toilet paper on a shelf.

[Donut417]

3 minutes ago, Motifator said:

Actually, people with disabilities get more benefits than just payouts. They're also able to buy cars for WAY cheaper than a regular person in some of the third world countries. I'm sure there are also other benefits to being disabled when it comes to most things with money.

Maybe in your country. In the US not so much. You get the scraps the government gives you and feel fucking fortunate about it. I know people on disability, they dont get shit. Also for what little bit of benefits you do get you most likely will have to fight for them, like sue the government just to get them, because half the time the government denies you because well they are the government. 

[Motifator]

I mean, in those countries like Turkey that the OP mentioned, people do traditional marriages with other people from their own family blood tree, ending up with disabled children. They do this to keep things easy, when in reality it just causes more issues than anything. There's no regulation to this, which is a huge issue in the middleeast in itself.

[Neroon]

6 hours ago, Wictorian said:

ok so the problem here is "no company wants a disabled person" so we should try to solve that, no?

Guess how that is done? By governments paying employers to hire them, basically giving them a discount. Depending on the handicap, the bigger the discount would need to be.

6 hours ago, Wictorian said:

here in Turkiye there is a cafe that is run solely by people with down syndrome.

And with that you mean everyone but a few who run the business? Because I very much doubt someone with down syndrome, has the knowledge of running a business all by themselves. The day to day can be done sure, but outside of that I'm sure some people with at least an average IQ are involved.

On top of that, these are specialty places, and customers go their accepting they won't be treated like normal, that things will take longer and generally pay more. We have those places here as well, and it's a great way to get them jobs, but it only works because people are willing to pay extra, and this in turn is in large by their visual disability, meaning that if they hadn't had down, but instead just a mental handicap, they would not be treated the same, and yes, that's a fact (my mom used to work with them for a very long time, and I've had experience in that field as well)

4 hours ago, Wictorian said:

I know some people cant work. However how big of a chunk is this? 

The people who absolutely cannot work, is fairly small. The people who won't get hired because their disability requires either a ton of adjustments or will slow things down, means that businesses will lose out on money. The world is selfish, so in most cases they won't get hired unless the government pays the employers.

 

Remember that even though you might think they can do a lot of jobs just as well, the difficulties they face in other areas, can add up. Someone in a wheelchair can sit behind their PC just as well as anyone else, but as soon as they need to move somewhere, it can take a lot longer depending on the adjustments being made. And those are generally the handicaps that are the least problematic.
I had a friend who had a muscle disease where her muscle would be too loose, making it really easy to dislocate something, giving her a ton of downtime, which makes her an unreliable worker in just about every job out there.

[Wictorian]

7 hours ago, Motifator said:

I mean, in those countries like Turkey that the OP mentioned, people do traditional marriages with other people from their own family blood tree, ending up with disabled children. They do this to keep things easy, when in reality it just causes more issues than anything. There's no regulation to this, which is a huge issue in the middleeast in itself.

yeah for instance SMA is a big issue here (by big I mean probably less then 100 annual cases). And there is always charity work to collect 2million dollars of treatment costs for one person. Instead of this the diseases can easily be prevented with regulation. What distincts 3rd worlds countries from 1st world countries is definitley regulation. Not lack of it, stupid things may be regulated and important things may be not. Also sometimes laws are too slow to catch up.

[Wictorian]

Thanks for the comments. I consider this argument done as I found what was looking for. This has been a very productive thread in my opinion and ironically the least productive comment was one stating that they are not sure if a tech forum is appropriate for this thread. 

 

Just to clarify, this was not a rant or something. I am not upset over disabled people getting money. If anything, I'm happy because this shows that we have built a functioning society. The issue was that this topic is a big part of some arguments and I really hadn't understood what was so hard about it. I thought most of them could work just fine, and those who couldn't: we could for sure pay them with ease. 

[Wictorian]

Also I think this issue will be solved in the near future as the vast majority of the disasbilities will be wiped away with advancement of technology. 

[Neroon]

1 hour ago, Wictorian said:

Also I think this issue will be solved in the near future as the vast majority of the disasbilities will be wiped away with advancement of technology. 

No it won't. If anything our progression in technology makes us weaker in that regard, we no longer have the whole survival of the fittest, and we can keep just about anyone alive.

[Motifator]

28 minutes ago, Neroon said:

No it won't. If anything our progression in technology makes us weaker in that regard, we no longer have the whole survival of the fittest, and we can keep just about anyone alive.

I think he was referring to stuff that enable people with disabilities to be more.. able. Just the other day I saw a woman in a wheelchair that should move upright / climb stairs and make her able to pick up food from the top shelf on tube.

Or the Stephen Hawking stuff.

[Wictorian]

1 hour ago, Motifator said:

I think he was referring to stuff that enable people with disabilities to be more.. able. Just the other day I saw a woman in a wheelchair that should move upright / climb stairs and make her able to pick up food from the top shelf on tube.

Or the Stephen Hawking stuff.

No (although that is entirely possible)

 

We will be able to predetermine the genes of children and alter them removing harmful parts, no?