EU Parliament agrees on proposal to force Apple to use USB-C on all devices (including iPhones), only allows small devices like watches to go portless

[LAwLz]

I see a lot of people complain that this will stifle innovation and that we are now stuck with USB-C...

You do realize the law can be changed, right? If someone comes up with a better port then the law could easily be changed to "USB-C or <New Port>". 

 

Laws are not written on stone tablets anymore. They can be changed. 

[Kisai]

13 hours ago, BachChain said:

So what happens in 10 years when the next connector comes along

There won't be one. NEMA 5-15 (Wall outlets) and NEMA 14-50 (Vehicles) are basically the standards in North America. There's also NEMA L-21 (Stage lighting), and all of these have been around for at least 40 years in their current versions. It would be nice if North America also had a requirement for these to all be AFCI, but y'know grandfathering of older buildings until renovated is a thing. The world has yet to standardize on one AC standard, but you know it's entirely possible to do by just placing adaptors on the old outlets. Which is what we are effectively doing when we convert one AC outlet into a single USB port for a charger.

 

In general USB Type-C (not to be confused with Type C Europlug) is a good enough standard that it can replace all power supplies for all devices that can be driven by LiPO batteries. So pretty much anything up to 75 watts can be driven by a single USB Type-C cable. 

 

There won't be "another" standard, at least not for the vast majority of devices for which this is targeted at. There is no reason to, unlike the variety of outlet types in North America and Europe which came about because a new class of appliance came out that requires more power than the common outlets. Please be reminded of history, in that the "light bulb" predated electrical sockets, and batteries themselves predate electric light. For all intents there is yet to be a "LED light" standard, and we are still using LED lights with integrated power supplies that are thrown away. We have yet to create a LED "light bulb socket", and we may never do so as it falls under low-voltage lighting, which are all proprietary systems. If a bulb dies, you throw the entire system away. The closest thing there is to a standard LED lighting system is the RGB lights in your computer case.

 

[dizmo]

I won't get an iPhone until they move to USB C because I don't want extra cables. However I don't think Apple should be forced to do it. Also, I think forbidding them from going completely wireless is absolutely fucking ridiculous, and frankly overstepping. 

 

38 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I see a lot of people complain that this will stifle innovation and that we are now stuck with USB-C...

You do realize the law can be changed, right? If someone comes up with a better port then the law could easily be changed to "USB-C or <New Port>". 

 

Laws are not written on stone tablets anymore. They can be changed. 

While true, it makes it far, far harder to test new ideas. Lab tests only go so far. You need mass product in the market to truly get a feel for something new. With a law like this, you don't have that, and as soon as you say "usb c and..." you can simply open the floodgates again and you've made little difference. Even if there are ways around it through many hoops, companies are less likely to go through with that. This will absolutely stifle innovation. 

 

[RejZoR]

Sensationalist news with Apple shoved in yet again. The proposal applies to ALL manufacturers of ALL devices. So that even cheap phone makers that still use microUSB would have to use USB-C. Same goes for all devices, not just smartphones. BT speakers, earbuds, phones, tablets and all the gadgets that are USB powered and still use microUSB. And there is TONS of these still being actively manufactured.

 

Would be nice if this also applied to laptops with mandatory requirement instead of 50 versions of the barrel plug.

[Doobeedoo]

Well that is good. Can we see USB Type-C be mandated for PC across the board then. All peripherals, cases and more on motherboars. Some seriously slack and wait for others.

Also odd that they can't make wireless phone, what why not though.

[Supreme Calamitas]

15 hours ago, jaslion said:

The loophole would be to make the phone too thin.

I don't think you understand, after this gets implemented. if you can't have USB-C on a phone then there's no phone... phone too thin to support usb-c? Then you literally can't sell that phone to the public.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

While true, it makes it far, far harder to test new ideas. Lab tests only go so far. You need mass product in the market to truly get a feel for something new. With a law like this, you don't have that, and as soon as you say "usb c and..." you can simply open the floodgates again and you've made little difference. Even if there are ways around it through many hoops, companies are less likely to go through with that. This will absolutely stifle innovation. 

Let's be realistic. How often do manufacturers experiment with new charging connectors in places where USB-C would work (so below 100 watts, and not these tiny devices where USB-C does not fit)? 

And if we get a new connector type I'd like for it to be developed in collaboration with other companies. You know, just like USB-C was. That way, if the connector is actually better, others will adopt it too. I am sure the EU will consider adding a new standard to the text if it comes from for example the USB forum.

 

I feel like this theoretical "some company want to experiment and release a new port standard" is more rare than bigfoot, so I will gladly take universal USB-C over that. The benefits far outweighs the drawbacks. And even if someone were to develop a new standard, the solution is simply to apply for it to be added to the standard. It really is not as big of a deal as some people think. Laws change all the time, and adding a small "USB-C or X" in the text is no big deal if it actually provides customers with a benefit.

 

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Sensationalist news with Apple shoved in yet again. The proposal applies to ALL manufacturers of ALL devices. So that even cheap phone makers that still use microUSB would have to use USB-C. 

I won't deny that people add Apple and iPhone to the headline to get more clicks, but let's be realistic here. Apple is basically the only phone company that has not adopted USB-C yet. Sure, Realme might have some phone you get in a cereal box that still use microUSB. But that is a way smaller offended than Apple with their hundreds of millions of phones sold.

 

But yes, this will make it so that if some company that still use microUSB want to keep selling devices in Europe, they will have to change to USB-C as well. I am not so sure those even exist though. All the new microUSB phones I could find were only sold in places like India. Those phones won't be affected by this.

 

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Would be nice if this also applied to laptops with mandatory requirement instead of 50 versions of the barrel plug.

It seems like it will apply to laptops as well. At least laptops that don't require above 100 watts.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Doobeedoo said:

Well that is good. Can we see USB Type-C be mandated for PC across the board then. All peripherals, cases and more on motherboars. Some seriously slack and wait for others.

Also odd that they can't make wireless phone, what why not though.

My guess is that they don't allow portless phones because the bill for standard wireless charging is not done yet.

The risk is that those companies *cough* Apple *cough* that are affected by this proposal would rather switch to a proprietary wireless charging standard rather than adopt the open port standard. So if that's the case then we would just be swapping one issue (iPhones have proprietary charging ports) for another (iPhones have proprietary wireless charging).

[tikker]

8 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I fear mandating things like this.  All it does is make people conform to a certain standard (even if the standard might not necessarily be practical in all applications).  Imagine if this was mandated back in micro days...that would be terrible.  It does I think stifle innovation in that there is now no chance a competitor could step in and make a new or smarter type of charge port.

I think we're past that supposed quick innovation point and that is the reason why such a mandate now makes more sense. Back in the day it was chaos where everyone and their mom invented their own connector. Now how many innovative connectors have we seen over the last years? Lightning has been used for what, like a decade now, my phones have had either micro USB or USB-C? My laptops have all had some form of barrel jack, macs have had their magsafe for ages. Where has all that innovation into new and smarter ports this supposedly would stifle gone? I think for the most that effort has gone into improving their existing connector, not innovating new ones. A new port will likely be a slow process over many years, not something every other year anymore. The most common place I still see odd connectors are my smart watch and that sort of accessories for example.

 

And if they really want to innovate on a phone, then they can experiment by adding a second port with their new invention. Yes it will cost, but innovation won't come freely. Laptops offer(ed) models with both the normal barrel jack and USB-C charge capabilities, phones can as well. Then if it works well, sells decently and you have data on real-world performance, you can compare it to the existing standard and consider updating it.

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Would be nice if this also applied to laptops with mandatory requirement instead of 50 versions of the barrel plug.

Absolutely. Having a separate barrel plug for every device drives me nuts. I'm so glad I can just poke my USB-C cable into everything now.

[Doobeedoo]

26 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

My guess is that they don't allow portless phones because the bill for standard wireless charging is not done yet.

The risk is that those companies *cough* Apple *cough* that are affected by this proposal would rather switch to a proprietary wireless charging standard rather than adopt the open port standard. So if that's the case then we would just be swapping one issue (iPhones have proprietary charging ports) for another (iPhones have proprietary wireless charging).

Yeah, definitely a unified wireless charging standard would be great. But hm maybe for general one like Qi charging for ok speeds though for those super fast speeds, phones require differnt hardware around it. Like split battery, electrical pumps, cooling erc. Obviously slow charging phones don't. So not sure how this would be done really. 

 

[suicidalfranco]

Their country, their rules Apple

You're the one who started this bs game

 

Now comply or leave

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Well that is good. Can we see USB Type-C be mandated for PC across the board then. All peripherals, cases and more on motherboars. Some seriously slack and wait for others.

Also odd that they can't make wireless phone, what why not though.

 

Because wireless wastes energy. Like most of the energy wasted is radiated into the air.

 

Here's the problem I see with USB-C PD in general. We've had a problem that we refuse to acknowledge for the last 20 years in the PC space, in that desktops come with these large, wasteful, internal power supplies where as laptops come with these external power bricks. Why do we need any brick at all? Why isn't there a Line voltage to 12V DC power supply standard? 

 

The answer to that comes back to the problem energy losses as well. If there was a standard USB-C PD connector, we may eventually move to "power strips/surge protectors" that do the AC to DC conversion once, and then your desktop, laptop, mobile phone, and so forth just directly connect to the USB-C PD on this. But I think this calls for a different larger connector (Eg a magsafe-style barrel connector) that is intended to support 100A 12-20V DC.

 

The one issue I take with a lot of existing USB-C cables is that they are often "very cheap" feeling and this to me suggests that they are probably fire hazards if used as charging cables.

[RejZoR]

@LAwLz

Everyone just sees Apple and their Lightning port and entirely underestimate the amount of crap still manufactured with microUSB. Just big brand names, we're not even mentioning 300 billion no name devices with it.

[LAwLz]

23 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

@LAwLz

Everyone just sees Apple and their Lightning port and entirely underestimate the amount of crap still manufactured with microUSB. Just big brand names, we're not even mentioning 300 billion no name devices with it.

How many new devices do you estimate gets made with microUSB and sold in the EU?

My guess is very few. According to GSMArena, which has as close to a complete database of phones as I think possible, says there were 170 phones released over the last 2 years that don't use USB-C. 

My guess is that the 5 iPhones on that list is more than the other 165 phones combined. Especially if we start looking at EU sales. My guess is that the other 165 devices don't even have a single digit market share combined.

[Doobeedoo]

17 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 

Because wireless wastes energy. Like most of the energy wasted is radiated into the air.

 

Here's the problem I see with USB-C PD in general. We've had a problem that we refuse to acknowledge for the last 20 years in the PC space, in that desktops come with these large, wasteful, internal power supplies where as laptops come with these external power bricks. Why do we need any brick at all? Why isn't there a Line voltage to 12V DC power supply standard? 

 

The answer to that comes back to the problem energy losses as well. If there was a standard USB-C PD connector, we may eventually move to "power strips/surge protectors" that do the AC to DC conversion once, and then your desktop, laptop, mobile phone, and so forth just directly connect to the USB-C PD on this. But I think this calls for a different larger connector (Eg a magsafe-style barrel connector) that is intended to support 100A 12-20V DC.

 

The one issue I take with a lot of existing USB-C cables is that they are often "very cheap" feeling and this to me suggests that they are probably fire hazards if used as charging cables.

What do you mean wireless wastes energy, it's convinient the waste is meaningless for such devices.

 

The USB-C PD will go up to 240W which quite something. Will be insane for phones and great for laptopscno need for barrel plug.

Not sure about that whole power strip idea though. Like redesigning electric circuitry for homes. Desktop PCs need quite a bit of power too. Also we're seeing new standards for power supplys too. 

Then again I was mainly talking about phones. They will be USB4 eventually and as for wireless I guess there are many standards and to have one that covers whole range well hard to see it.

 

Not all USB C cabels support everything though. Optional features. Though those that can have higher PD ill be built better for sure.

[darknessblade]

47 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

@LAwLz

Everyone just sees Apple and their Lightning port and entirely underestimate the amount of crap still manufactured with microUSB. Just big brand names, we're not even mentioning 300 billion no name devices with it.

Should we then talk also about how Lightning is still under the USB 2.0 standard.

 

as for things made with a micro usb port

The only stuff made with micro usb port are

- Arduino's

- raspberry PI's

- cheap Camera's

-USB card readers, that do not have a usb 3.0 port

 

And yet there are also usb type C versions of said devices. which is not the case for Iphones using the lightning port

[Brooksie359]

19 hours ago, Neoxon said:

The mandate isn't married to USB-C & will be revisited every few years in the event a better standard comes up.

Yes because everyone will want to invest in creating new standards when only one can actually be used. I'm sorry but if I was a company and knew that if I invested in a new standard and the EU didn't pick it up I am sol then I wouldn't waste my time on trying to create a new standard. 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Yeah, definitely a unified wireless charging standard would be great. But hm maybe for general one like Qi charging for ok speeds though for those super fast speeds, phones require differnt hardware around it. Like split battery, electrical pumps, cooling erc. Obviously slow charging phones don't. So not sure how this would be done really. 

 

You'd only have to standardize the technology around power delivery and conversion itself, anything from the actual battery charger circuitry would be however the manufacturers wants. So long as the standard has a low power mode and a high power mode (variable power, probably with negotiation) it's basically free play from that point. Wouldn't prevent the things you mentioned.

[Doobeedoo]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You'd only have to standardize the technology around power delivery and conversion itself, anything from the actual battery charger circuitry would be however the manufacturers wants. So long as the standard has a low power mode and a high power mode (variable power, probably with negotiation) it's basically free play from that point. Wouldn't prevent the things you mentioned.

Ok so in theory we could have USB4 PD 240W as standard, along with variable power?

[Helpful Tech Witch]

5 hours ago, Kisai said:

 

In general USB Type-C (not to be confused with Type C Europlug) is a good enough standard that it can replace all power supplies for all devices that can be driven by LiPO batteries. So pretty much anything up to 75 watts can be driven by a single USB Type-C cable

Unless I’m mistaken, can’t usb c do like 240w?

 

[Sauron]

21 hours ago, HanZie82 said:

Fan of standardization, but not sure forcing certain company's to change is the best option.
But then if they actively work against right to repair and such, yeah no mercy.

I would be willing to accept companies being allowed to keep their connectors in exchange for making the specifics public domain and weaving their patents. I'm not sure Apple would prefer that to be honest  

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Doobeedoo said:

Ok so in theory we could have USB4 PD 240W as standard, along with variable power?

Yea, most phones do some sort of negotiation check now to much sure it's all ok for the really high speed charging. I don't think wireless charging will be doing such high power as that but I don't actually see much issue having to stick to a unified standard and not be able to do rather decent higher power wireless charging while still being able to layout batteries and cooling however you like in the phone itself.

 

Such a standard only affects the logical control chip for the wireless charging and the physical interface/antennas etc for the wireless charging portion. Once it's all converter to a 12V or 5V supply on a power lane you can basically do whatever you want with it and that will feed in to the actual battery charger.

 

Of much more complicated than that but I'm not an electrical engineer but I can't think of any stand out reasons that would prevent battery designs and cooling under and standardized wireless charging protocol.

[WhitetailAni]

11 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Off topic, but I must be a pretty distant outlier, as my cable I got with my iPhone 11, two and a half years ago, is still in one piece. My Dad and sister have each gone through a handful of them in that time. It’s not as though I do anything special, I don’t think. I’m just pulling out the cable by the plastic end, and not subject the cable to steep angles. 

Same boat here. We have cables from when the iPad mini 1 first launched and they work fine. Sure, they're dirty, but that's just how Apple lightning cables work.

Heck, I have an original model 30-pin that works fine (the one where the connector head has the locking tabs and it's about 3/4 of an inch long) - just the plastic shielding is cracked (because I got it at Goodwill). Wrapped it in electrical tape and it works fine.

[wanderingfool2]

9 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I see a lot of people complain that this will stifle innovation and that we are now stuck with USB-C...

You do realize the law can be changed, right? If someone comes up with a better port then the law could easily be changed to "USB-C or <New Port>". 

 

Laws are not written on stone tablets anymore. They can be changed. 

Laws can be changes yes...but that's overall highly idealistic.  No company will want to put money into creating their own connector if the law doesn't currently allow it...especially if it's meant for a product that only they will be making (the example I give is something like the Sonim XP7, it's not the best examples but laws like this will prevent the attempts)

 

There's actually plenty of laws that don't make any sense, and even some laws that are actively in the news (that are still not repealed) that don't make sense.  Once standards are set, they are rarely changed to update the new world.

 

Actually a good and relevant example of this is Measurements Canada and EV chargers.  While there have been EV's for well over 6 years (practically), in Canada because of the way our standards are written companies aren't allowed charging based on kWh consumed...instead we base it off of time spent at the charger.  That means you can end up paying quite a bit more.  There have been proposals and everything to get it fixed, but ultimately it's gone nowhere in the last 10 years...despite the fact that Tesla has shown that a lot better solution is possible.

 

So yes, laws aren't written in stone...but governments tend to be years behind the time when it comes to implementing a new one.

 

If they really wanted to force companies to incentivize the same connector while not actually limiting to a singular tech, the solution would have been to make it so that every power delivery method on the phone has to be either an open-standard or a licensable standard (and stipulate a reasonable fee cap).  That way Apple could still utilize the lightning connector but wouldn't be able to block out third parties or other manufactures from using it.  While it might not currently change stuff, it still puts pressure towards using USB-C while not necessarily forcing companies to adhere to it, and at the same time it means standard USB wall worts would be able to support the charging standards Apple does.  So now the only waste would be the cables...but even with the cables, I doubt there would be much wastage.

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

How many new devices do you estimate gets made with microUSB and sold in the EU?

On phones you are correct, but on the "cheap" other devices like @RejZoR said there are a decent amount.  Like $10-$20 devices have a tendency to be non-usb-c I found.  With that said, it gets a bit difficult in my opinion when it comes to these kinds of devices.  Apparently volume cost for micro vs C is 3 cents vs 10 cents.  While not necessarily a lot, that 7 cent different will likely reduce margins by a decent amount (when factoring in the retooling needed and the added cost per part).

 

[Neoxon]

2 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Laws can be changes yes...but that's overall highly idealistic.  No company will want to put money into creating their own connector if the law doesn't currently allow it...especially if it's meant for a product that only they will be making (the example I give is something like the Sonim XP7, it's not the best examples but laws like this will prevent the attempts)

 

There's actually plenty of laws that don't make any sense, and even some laws that are actively in the news (that are still not repealed) that don't make sense.  Once standards are set, they are rarely changed to update the new world.

 

Actually a good and relevant example of this is Measurements Canada and EV chargers.  While there have been EV's for well over 6 years (practically), in Canada because of the way our standards are written companies aren't allowed charging based on kWh consumed...instead we base it off of time spent at the charger.  That means you can end up paying quite a bit more.  There have been proposals and everything to get it fixed, but ultimately it's gone nowhere in the last 10 years...despite the fact that Tesla has shown that a lot better solution is possible.

 

So yes, laws aren't written in stone...but governments tend to be years behind the time when it comes to implementing a new one.

 

If they really wanted to force companies to incentivize the same connector while not actually limiting to a singular tech, the solution would have been to make it so that every power delivery method on the phone has to be either an open-standard or a licensable standard (and stipulate a reasonable fee cap).  That way Apple could still utilize the lightning connector but wouldn't be able to block out third parties or other manufactures from using it.  While it might not currently change stuff, it still puts pressure towards using USB-C while not necessarily forcing companies to adhere to it, and at the same time it means standard USB wall worts would be able to support the charging standards Apple does.  So now the only waste would be the cables...but even with the cables, I doubt there would be much wastage.

 

On phones you are correct, but on the "cheap" other devices like @RejZoR said there are a decent amount.  Like $10-$20 devices have a tendency to be non-usb-c I found.  With that said, it gets a bit difficult in my opinion when it comes to these kinds of devices.  Apparently volume cost for micro vs C is 3 cents vs 10 cents.  While not necessarily a lot, that 7 cent different will likely reduce margins by a decent amount (when factoring in the retooling needed and the added cost per part).

 

The EU is actually better about revisiting these kinds of laws than most, so I’m not too worried.

 

Regarding your microUSB example, haven’t people complained about those companies not switching to USB-C?

[Derangel]

23 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Laws can be changes yes...but that's overall highly idealistic.  No company will want to put money into creating their own connector if the law doesn't currently allow it...especially if it's meant for a product that only they will be making (the example I give is something like the Sonim XP7, it's not the best examples but laws like this will prevent the attempts)

 

 

Here's the thing: We don't want individual companies coming up with their own proprietary crap. This does nothing to stifle innovation as any new charging standard will be developed by consortiums, like all modern cable standards are. It has been a long time since any singular entity created their own connector that became an industry wide standard. The USB-IF won't stop working on new versions of USB due to this ruling, the IEC won't cease adopting new cable standards due to it either.