EU Parliament agrees on proposal to force Apple to use USB-C on all devices (including iPhones), only allows small devices like watches to go portless

[poochyena]

10 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I also remember those days and having 3 devices (one phone, 2 GPS)  "break" because the micro usb's connector while claiming to be designed for 10,000+ insertions...the soldered joints didnt hold up (and they eventually needed to be held at certain angles to keep them charging).  My previous propriety phone connector outlasted it all (literally 5 years of abuse and no sign of issues).  From my work alone, we had so many devices with broken micro and mini ports.

I don't think i've ever had a micro usb connector die on me and I have a lot of micro usb devices, but even if it did, the great thing about it being a standard is that you can find a new cable for cheap. That can't be said about proprietary cables.

10 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I know a few "rugged" phones used at work which will now have to change (I forget the make/model, since I really haven't had to deal with them since deployment).  They have had a nice USB connection that was like the magsafe connectors...but oversized.  It made it so it was fully waterproof, and pretty idiot proof as well.  You just held the cable close by and it snapped into place with strong magnets.  Under the new regulation they will now have to change their design.  [Yes I know you can buy USB magnet ones that are similar but they typically stick out as a bump and in this case would likely be less rugged].  Like imagine something like a Sonim connector (Although with Sonim they do technically have an USB-C port...but the way it's implemented I doubt it would count)

 

Devices could still have that, they'd just need to also have a usb c port. Excepts can be applied too

[wanderingfool2]

25 minutes ago, Derangel said:

 

Here's the thing: We don't want individual companies coming up with their own proprietary crap. This does nothing to stifle innovation as any new charging standard will be developed by consortiums, like all modern cable standards are. It has been a long time since any singular entity created their own connector that became an industry wide standard. The USB-IF won't stop working on new versions of USB due to this ruling, the IEC won't cease adopting new cable standards due to it either.

Again, Sonim XP7 would fall victim I believe to this new proposal.  On low cost devices as well (like $5) kind of things as well, the 7 cent difference in implementing becomes a major issue.

 

If you notice as well, I mentioned an easy way they could have resolved the issue of propriety stuff as well.

[tikker]

5 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Again, Sonim XP7 would fall victim I believe to this new proposal.  On low cost devices as well (like $5) kind of things as well, the 7 cent difference in implementing becomes a major issue.

So let it fall victim? How would it fall victim? That seems to be a phone from 2014 that is discontinued and, in a kind of brutal way, getting rid of those things is the point of the mandate. Additionally, the XP8 uses USB-C according to their site, so this seems like a non-issue to me. Older devices "falling victim" to these things during the transition is inevitable, but it's not like they're making them illegal to possess once this goes through.

 

The price difference you mention I also see as a big reason why something other than a mandate will not put pressure on companies to switch. I don't see them easily obliging "please use this 3x more expensive connector".

15 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

If you notice as well, I mentioned an easy way they could have resolved the issue of propriety stuff as well.

If you mean your suggestion for a common power delivery method then that is at least partially included. The legislation isn't just forcing connectors. If the device charges at >5 V or  >3 A or >15 W it must incorporate USB PD.

[bcredeur97]

Watch Apple make "EU Edition" iPhone and give everyone else lightning just to make everyone mad lol 

[AnonymousGuy]

Seems like a silly regulation, but that's the EU for you.  Now where is my 15/30/45/60/90/100W USB-C charger and my assortment of 5A / not5A compatible cables?

 

Quote

With half a billion chargers for portable devices shipped in Europe each year,

Here's an example of being manipulated in what you're being told.  No context given for why new chargers are being shipped (hell maybe it's their own regulation that every new device must come with one?), just that you should infer they are all lightning / apple.  Plus, what does the charger have to do with the device?  Lightning by default uses USB A and can also use USB C.

[poochyena]

2 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

Watch Apple make "EU Edition" iPhone and give everyone else lightning just to make everyone mad lol 

I was thinking about that too. I wouldn't be surprised.

[Derangel]

9 minutes ago, poochyena said:

I was thinking about that too. I wouldn't be surprised.

While it's possible I don't really see Apple going that route. In typical Apple fashion, they'd be more likely to find a way to spin the change into something that makes them look good. Let's not forget the whole "brave" marketing around removing the headphone jack or the "reducing waste" nonsense around removing the wall plug. I also wouldn't be surprised if they still found some kind of loophole that would allow them to make money from this.

[DeScruff]

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

How many new devices do you estimate gets made with microUSB and sold in the EU?

My guess is very few. According to GSMArena, which has as close to a complete database of phones as I think possible, says there were 170 phones released over the last 2 years that don't use USB-C. 

My guess is that the 5 iPhones on that list is more than the other 165 phones combined. Especially if we start looking at EU sales. My guess is that the other 165 devices don't even have a single digit market share combined.

If you count non-phone device, I think the number increases dramatically, just because these tend to be devices that do not get updated frequently, so them moving to USB C has been slow. (Soooo many peripherals are still MicroB)
Medical devices are a big one as those take years for approval, supported for extended periods, and are updated infrequently. The insulin pump a family member of mine recently got is a fairly new model, and still uses MicroB for example. (I believe the optional glucose monitor display device also uses MicroB)

A lot of rechargeable flashlights Ive seen also still use MicroB - because they are models that come from Pre-USB C days. Then you have devices without batteries that just use USB for power rather then a barrel plug, those tend to still use MicroB. - The Raspberry Pi has C, but the Pi Zero is still micro B. Chargers for NiMh AA batteries when they aren't wall warts tend to be MicroB. - Happily MILBEP battery chargers tend to use C though!

I'd rather everything move to C, and do actively try to buy things that use C over MicroB, just cause I love that I can use my laptop charger and PinePower for everything.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

(hell maybe it's their own regulation that every new device must come with one?)

If you're going to be hating on the EU, at least get the facts straight. The EU does not have some regulation regarding needing to ship chargers with devices.

[AnonymousGuy]

15 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

If you're going to be hating on the EU, at least get the facts straight. The EU does not have some regulation regarding needing to ship chargers with devices.

I don't live in the EU , hence I don't care enough to look it up.  Hence "maybe" to indicate look it up yourself if you do care.

[LAwLz]

20 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I don't live in the EU , hence I don't care enough to look it up.  Hence "maybe" to indicate look it up yourself if you do care.

So let me get this straight.

First you claim the EU makes a bunch of "silly regulations".

Then you make stuff up that might be true to make them seem "silly", saying that people are being manipulated but you're so smart for seeing through the ruse.

Then when you get called out that you're just making assumptions you go "well I don't care"?

[Neoxon]

4 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

Watch Apple make "EU Edition" iPhone and give everyone else lightning just to make everyone mad lol 

Actually, I could see the rest of the world going portless & Apple being legally obligated to give USB-C to the EU to comply with the mandate.

 

Although in a more realistic set of potential events, I could've seen Apple going portless for the regular iPhones & USB-C for the Pros if the EU didn't forbid Apple from going portless outside of the Apple Watch.

[lostcattears]

No such thing as a standardize Charger... If the next new thing comes out it will take years to adopt even if they revisit it. People will be forced on the timeline of EU which is stupid.

[wanderingfool2]

11 hours ago, tikker said:

So let it fall victim? How would it fall victim? That seems to be a phone from 2014 that is discontinued and, in a kind of brutal way, getting rid of those things is the point of the mandate. Additionally, the XP8 uses USB-C according to their site, so this seems like a non-issue to me. Older devices "falling victim" to these things during the transition is inevitable, but it's not like they're making them illegal to possess once this goes through.

You are missing the whole point.  I'd rather a rugged phone have a charging connector that actually...guess what rugged.  Or one that is a lot more fool proof than USB-C.  My whole point in bringing up the XPS7 is that it actually was fitting a certain use-case, which one can no longer say it does.

 

USB-C for a rugged phone in just inherently worse than some of types.  The law shouldn't be dictating what standard to use, especially when there are use-cases where using USB-C is the inferior choice.  Again, my whole point is that sometimes USB-C is not the best choice for a consumer electronic (instead a more specialized one is the better approach)

 

Another good example of laws not accepting change even when it's to the benefit is side mirrors on vehicles.  They cause enough drag to actually affect efficiency of vehicles...but automakers can't make vehicles with it.  If they allowed removing mirrors (with cameras in place), you could save so much energy each year (and pollution)

[tikker]

3 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

You are missing the whole point.  I'd rather a rugged phone have a charging connector that actually...guess what rugged.  Or one that is a lot more fool proof than USB-C.  My whole point in bringing up the XPS7 is that it actually was fitting a certain use-case, which one can no longer say it does.

 

USB-C for a rugged phone in just inherently worse than some of types.  The law shouldn't be dictating what standard to use, especially when there are use-cases where using USB-C is the inferior choice.  Again, my whole point is that sometimes USB-C is not the best choice for a consumer electronic (instead a more specialized one is the better approach)

Ah ok, I see your point now, that wasn't clear to me from the earlier post. Are there any reviews and tests backing up your claims that the USB-C port has made it no longer do what it advertises, i.e. be a rugged phone? Now I don't know if they planned to go with USB-C themselves or did it because the EU was already considering such a mandate back then, but specifications seem unchanged between the XP7 and XP8, and while a quick search yields mixed opinions, I don't immediately find an obvious pattern of the USB-C port being a major issue on these things. You can always find corner cases that do not benefit or may be hurt by certain legistlations. I haven't had issues with USB-C ports or connectors breaking on any of my devices over the past years, but I can see how niche devices like this might benefit from an exception, and if it becomes a real issue then the innovation will start and they can try to come up with a more rugged USB-C plug.

3 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Another good example of laws not accepting change even when it's to the benefit is side mirrors on vehicles.  They cause enough drag to actually affect efficiency of vehicles...but automakers can't make vehicles with it.  If they allowed removing mirrors (with cameras in place), you could save so much energy each year (and pollution)

I can understand that from an operational safety point of view. Mirrors are simple, don't require power and just work without concerns of additional circuitry, lag, sensitivity in dark and light environments. They basically work wherever our eyes work (which is a point where cameras could be better as they could work where our eyes can't). If a solid reliable camera system can be made then I see little issue, but I can understand the slow pace.

[Mnementh85]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:30 PM, DANK_AS_gay said:

They actually are being blocked from doing specifically this

I know this was a joke (the /s), but I am kinda confused. What did I miss? Was it sarcasm? (what does /s mean? Sarcasm or satire?)

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A52021PC0547&qid=1650707782060

In Annex they write:

" in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging"

 

So they could go full wireless

 

4 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

You are missing the whole point.  I'd rather a rugged phone have a charging connector that actually...guess what rugged.  Or one that is a lot more fool proof than USB-C.  My whole point in bringing up the XPS7 is that it actually was fitting a certain use-case, which one can no longer say it does.

 

USB-C for a rugged phone in just inherently worse than some of types.  The law shouldn't be dictating what standard to use, especially when there are use-cases where using USB-C is the inferior choice.  Again, my whole point is that sometimes USB-C is not the best choice for a consumer electronic (instead a more specialized one is the better approach)

 

Another good example of laws not accepting change even when it's to the benefit is side mirrors on vehicles.  They cause enough drag to actually affect efficiency of vehicles...but automakers can't make vehicles with it.  If they allowed removing mirrors (with cameras in place), you could save so much energy each year (and pollution)

 

XP7 is not affected as it's already out of production

It's successor the XP8 is already on USB-C and is still waterproof also the EU proposal impose the USB-C but doesn't limit to it, and the XP8 still have chargin pin which will not be banned by the EU proposal as they are not the only wired charging solution

 

 

Also: https://www.audi.fr/fr/web/fr/gamme/tron/audi-e-tron.html

Beside the fact that in French the car name is Turd, it as camera in place of side mirrors

[wanderingfool2]

5 hours ago, Mnementh85 said:

XP7 is not affected as it's already out of production

It's successor the XP8 is already on USB-C and is still waterproof also the EU proposal impose the USB-C but doesn't limit to it, and the XP8 still have chargin pin which will not be banned by the EU proposal as they are not the only wired charging solution

I know XP7 is not in production.  Did you read my reply?  But while you are saying it, XP8 out of the box now has a rubber flap that helps the USB-C port keep dry.   I am can tell you know on a rugged phone that will be the first component to be accidentally ripped off.  From there junk and other stuff will be able to get into the USB port.  XP7 sure you got junk in it, but nothing a blast of water wouldn't fix.

[LAwLz]

13 hours ago, tikker said:

You can always find corner cases that do not benefit or may be hurt by certain legistlations.

The entire discussion reminds me of this:

 

"But sometimes!"

[Donut417]

At this point I dont understand Apple's decision about not doing USB C on the iPhone. I mean literally their computers and tablets now all have USB C ports. Besides the iPhone what devices do they carry that do Lightning? 

[Kisai]

5 hours ago, Donut417 said:

At this point I dont understand Apple's decision about not doing USB C on the iPhone. I mean literally their computers and tablets now all have USB C ports. Besides the iPhone what devices do they carry that do Lightning? 

 

The phone generates more profits than all other products. Change the ports too often, and people will get in a huff over it. Like the reason the 30pin went away was because it supported firewire and analog outputs that nobody was realistically using, while lacking any real mechanism for future-proofing. It was fine to throw away. I'm still using the 10 year old ipad for 2FA, but it hasn't been able to download most new software since 2020.

 

This is the same kind of issue that will happen with the iphone. The only correct way to move forward is to ADD the USB-C port to the existing designs (eg put the USB-C port in landscape mode, so it fits in devices that fit the USB-c iPad's) and then remove the lightning port when they stop supporting the OS on devices that have them...

 

Or just rip off the bandaid, and get all the potential lawsuits from people getting rightfully mad for having bought lighting accessories in the first place, especially lightning headsets.

 

As for "what is so bad about lightning?"

 

Plug in a lightning cable to a HDMI device. It's the most embarrassing, disappointing experience, especially when something like a game runs on the iphone, and the HDMI output just flips out constantly, changing sizes, showing h264 video artifacts. Like just take Lightning out to the woodshed already.

 

[Mnementh85]

12 hours ago, Kisai said:

 

The phone generates more profits than all other products. Change the ports too often, and people will get in a huff over it.

Also, Apple get money when anybody use lightning connector

[Monkey Dust]

15 hours ago, Kisai said:

 

The phone generates more profits than all other products. Change the ports too often, and people will get in a huff over it. Like the reason the 30pin went away was because it supported firewire and analog outputs that nobody was realistically using, while lacking any real mechanism for future-proofing. It was fine to throw away. I'm still using the 10 year old ipad for 2FA, but it hasn't been able to download most new software since 2020.

 

This is the same kind of issue that will happen with the iphone. The only correct way to move forward is to ADD the USB-C port to the existing designs (eg put the USB-C port in landscape mode, so it fits in devices that fit the USB-c iPad's) and then remove the lightning port when they stop supporting the OS on devices that have them...

 

Or just rip off the bandaid, and get all the potential lawsuits from people getting rightfully mad for having bought lighting accessories in the first place, especially lightning headsets.

 

As for "what is so bad about lightning?"

 

Plug in a lightning cable to a HDMI device. It's the most embarrassing, disappointing experience, especially when something like a game runs on the iphone, and the HDMI output just flips out constantly, changing sizes, showing h264 video artifacts. Like just take Lightning out to the woodshed already.

 

How many people actually have lighting accessories beyond the 'included until recently Apple wired earbuds' or lighting to 3.5 mm jack adapters? Most of the accessories that were rendered obsolete by the 30 pin's demise, their modern equivalents use Bluetooth or Wi-Fi, not the Lighting port.

 

And if you need a really fast data connection, say to take off large video files you've recorded, Lighting is rubbish. It arguably damages the utility of the Pro models, which would ideally get thunderbolt when they finally get USB-C.

[Donut417]

16 hours ago, Kisai said:

Change the ports too often, and people will get in a huff over it.

They will get the fuck over it. Didnt see too many people up in arms when Android devices went from Micro B to Type C. Furthermore the writing has been on the wall for years. The EU has been discussing this regulation for the last few years. Another thing. Most of the newer iPhone support wireless charging and for once Apple actually followed a well documented standard. So I dont personally see the issue. 

 

Also that argument doesnt hold any weight because Apple went from the USB A to Lightning cable, to now a USB C to Lightning cable meaning everyone had to get a new charger anyway. Also like @Monkey Duststated, who uses wired accessories anymore? If I want to listen to stuff on my iPhone XR I use my Bluetooth headset. The only time I plug my phone in is to charge or to use Apple Car Play. Outside of that everything is wireless. 

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Also like @Monkey Duststated, who uses wired accessories anymore? If I want to listen to stuff on my iPhone XR I use my Bluetooth headset. The only time I plug my phone in is to charge or to use Apple Car Play. Outside of that everything is wireless. 

Maybe people don't want RF energy being pushed through their ears, eyes and brain. Wireless should be the LAST option, not the ONLY option.

 

And bluetooth audio is some of the worst sounding audio, ever. Nevermind how much of a pain in the ass bluetooth is to use on anything that isn't an iPhone.

[Donut417]

17 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Maybe people don't want RF energy being pushed through their ears, eyes and brain. Wireless should be the LAST option, not the ONLY option.

 

And bluetooth audio is some of the worst sounding audio, ever. Nevermind how much of a pain in the ass bluetooth is to use on anything that isn't an iPhone.

Well if they dont want the RF energy then they need to move to mars. Because RF is all over. WiFi, Bluetooth, Cellular, Broadcast TV, Radio, etc. 

 

People cry about Bluetooth audio and I find the sound coming out of my HD4.40's via Bluetooth to be very good compared to some other headsets I have. As far as Bluetooth being a pain, Ive only had issues on Windows devices, so Id say less a Bluetooth issue and more of a Microsoft sucks balls issue.