You're Wrong About Hydrogen Cars

[AlexTheGreatish]

Hydrogen cars have gotten a lot of hate lately, and only some of that is deserved.

 

 

 

[adarw]

wow! no faces, omg, please dont change it.

[RejZoR]

Can people STOP harping about acceleration in electric cars already? 9.1 sec 0-100 km/s is plenty enough for anyone. I always hate how all reviewers always orgasm over Tesla's acceleration and then everyone drags their electric asses around in slow motion from any intersection because it ruins their average consumption in real world use if they hurry up a bit. It's such a stupid thing people reviewers do and it really annoys me. $50k is not even that much for a car of this size. All the EV's cost 30k € and they are the size of Renault Zoe. It's a freaking tiny EV for those who don't know. One would think Nissan Leaf would drop in price after existing for so many years and have one of the most primitive battery systems, yet it's still freaking 35k € as starting price. It's insane. It has been over 10 years and EV's are still as expensive as when they were released. They suck a bit less, but they are still entirely unobtainable to most normal people and make even less sense if you do very little driving as you'll never get back the absurd difference in cheaper "fuel". Also lets not forget electricity won't be this cheap forever. The more cars go into electric charging, the higher electricity cost will be, because someone will like to get the petrol tax somehow and where they'll get it if not from petrol? Yeah...

 

Only affordable EV car in whole existence is Dacia Spring at around 17k €. Just to be disappointed with its very spartan equipment and only has 45 HP and top speed of 125 km/h (77 MPH). It accelerates to 100km/h (60 MPH) in about 20 seconds and has a specified range of 230 kilometers (143 miles). It's the only EV that you can actually call a full proper car yet it still costs as much as a 100 HP Renault Clio which is much more powerful, has higher range and is a bigger car.

[williamcll]

13 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Can people STOP harping about acceleration in electric cars already? 9.1 sec 0-100 km/s is plenty enough for anyone. I always hate how all reviewers always orgasm over Tesla's acceleration and then everyone drags their electric asses around in slow motion from any intersection because it ruins their average consumption in real world use if they hurry up a bit. It's such a stupid thing people reviewers do and it really annoys me. $50k is not even that much for a car of this size. All the EV's cost 30k € and they are the size of Renault Zoe. It's a freaking tiny EV for those who don't know. One would think Nissan Leaf would drop in price after existing for so many years and have one of the most primitive battery systems, yet it's still freaking 35k € as starting price. It's insane. It has been over 10 years and EV's are still as expensive as when they were released. They suck a bit less, but they are still entirely unobtainable to most normal people and make even less sense if you do very little driving as you'll never get back the absurd difference in cheaper "fuel". Also lets not forget electricity won't be this cheap forever. The more cars go into electric charging, the higher electricity cost will be, because someone will like to get the petrol tax somehow and where they'll get it if not from petrol? Yeah...

 

Only affordable EV car in whole existence is Dacia Spring at around 17k €. Just to be disappointed with its very spartan equipment and only has 45 HP and top speed of 125 km/h (77 MPH). It accelerates to 100km/h (60 MPH) in about 20 seconds and has a specified range of 230 kilometers (143 miles). It's the only EV that you can actually call a full proper car yet it still costs as much as a 100 HP Renault Clio which is much more powerful, has higher range and is a bigger car.

Nah, it can go even more cheaper 

 

[Kentlowt]

One thing not mentioned in this video and glossed over by a lot of supporter of electrically charged cars is the efficiency of the electrical grid. The average efficiency of the grid in the US is in the 30% range this means 70%ish of the electricity generated never makes it to the consumer. This means getting the electricity generated closer to the “appliance” in this case the car reaps huge rewards in efficiency and a lower environmental impact.

[mariushm]

I quite liked the video, good pacing, nice footage, good explanations and drawings.

 

I'm wondering if someone would have the idea of doing a mass solar panel thing somewhere in Africa or Australia and use excess energy to get clean water out of ocean and/or use electrolysis or something to break the water into hydrogen and oxygen ... or use algae or bacteria to make hydrogen and "bottle" it for shipping.

[wanderingfool2]

8 minutes ago, Kentlowt said:

One thing not mentioned in this video and glossed over by a lot of supporter of electrically charged cars is the efficiency of the electrical grid. The average efficiency of the grid in the US is in the 30% range this means 70%ish of the electricity generated never makes it to the consumer. This means getting the electricity generated closer to the “appliance” in this case the car reaps huge rewards in efficiency and a lower environmental impact.

It's 5% for transmission and distribution; source https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

 

The "30%" number appears to be when factoring in Natural Gas, Coal etc power plants, and the energy lost while generating the energy.  So generating hydrogen from electricity would still incur the same penalty that BEV cars have.

 

In regards to the video: it's all good and well to discuss the "speed" that you can fill up, but at the same time one can argue with electric vehicles you can charge at home.  That I think is a big difference in terms of how adoption will work.  Things like Mirai are all well and good if you live close to a fill-up station, but the infrastructure just isn't anywhere near where it needs to be and realistically will take so long before you get hydrogen stations that BEV will have taken over.

 

With that said, long haul trucking it will still make sense; in that there will be a lot of driving needing to be done (and the quick fuel ups can help).  Although, with trucking the fuel costs might also come into play...since if it remains a higher cost the diesel or a BEV then it could tip the balance back to BEV's.  Since imagine if it costs 2x more per mile...at a certain point the salary of a trucker might be cheaper than the fuel (thus making BEV again the better option...even with a reduced load).

 

Another point not addressed in the video; freezing of the fueling (can cause delays in filling).  While it's mentioned the prices will be reduced as more hydrogen is bought in bulk, that ignores that fact that it will take year on years to scale up to where economies of scale will take effect.  An example of this is looking at the Oxygen shortage.  The price of oxygen increased drastically, and even the trucks used to carry liquid oxygen became in short supply (being diverted from non-essential activities).  Even with the limited number of hydrogen stations there have already been hydrogen shortages...so yea, there is an issue with the supply chain and honestly I don't see it being fixed in the next 5-10 years.  [Even the Tesla SuperCharger network, which is a selling point now, has taken 10 years...and they spent billions on building it]

 

The only way I see hydrogen vehicles working would be if they become cheaper to run than gas vehicles and BEV (which at the current pricing isn't the case), and BEV haven't taken over the market by that point. 

[Radium_Angel]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

acceleration in electric cars already?

There was an old saying "Horsepower Sells"

Nevermind most people can't handle a powerful car (see all the videos of idiots with 600hp cars going straight into the ditch), they just want to outrun the guy next to them, so they look at those 0-60 (or 100km/h) numbers.

 

 

[poochyena]

Hydrogen will make more sense when we have more wind and solar farms. During peak hours with low demand, instead of the extra power being wasted, it can be used to create hydrogen fuel for free, as using power from solar/wind that would otherwise go to waste doesn't cost anything.

 

edit; oh derp, I paused the video too soon, they mention this. Great! Glad they did.

Edited January 11, 2022 by poochyena

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Can people STOP harping about acceleration in electric cars already? 9.1 sec 0-100 km/s is plenty enough for anyone.

Yea, at a certain point it's really a diminishing return (and to a certain point gets dangerous because people aren't use to having that much power).  With that said, it would be nice to see it slightly quicker...as depending where you are driving some areas have wickedly short on-ramps where having the option to accelerate quickly can make it just a lot easier and safer (when it's busy and you need to accelerate to hit the gap).

 

I'm curious though if there is the general delay (similar to gas cars...or maybe worse) in terms of accelerator depression to the time it actually starts.  With BEV's it is pretty much instant; which I think some people can get use to so when transferring back to gas it feels overall mushy.  That's just speculation though, I haven't gotten to drive a Mirai.  I would imagine it's a delay though (and maybe bigger than a gas vehicle); as I would guess (could be wildly wrong), but from the starting flow of hydrogen to then the  generating energy for the motors could potentially have a larger input delay...idk though, hopefully Alex could comment on what the acceleration feels like in regards to that. [It might be just me, but I always enjoy Alex's videos compared to the others...he has the goofy Linus kind of vibe going on].

 

13 minutes ago, poochyena said:

Hydrogen will make more sense when we have more wind and solar farms. During peak hours with low demand, instead of the extra power being wasted, it can be used to create hydrogen fuel for free, as using power from solar/wind that would otherwise go to waste doesn't cost anything.

 

I think you will find that it will be done at a much larger scale (and not sold to people).  Like hydrogen batteries that effectively charge when not in use, and then dump to the grid when needed...you get higher efficiencies that way.  There are also a bunch of competing emerging techs in terms of massive energy storage (so it might not be hydrogen that wins in that area either).

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I'm curious though if there is the general delay (similar to gas cars...or maybe worse) in terms of accelerator depression to the time it actually starts.  With BEV's it is pretty much instant; which I think some people can get use to so when transferring back to gas it feels overall mushy.  That's just speculation though, I haven't gotten to drive a Mirai.  I would imagine it's a delay though (and maybe bigger than a gas vehicle); as I would guess (could be wildly wrong), but from the starting flow of hydrogen to then the  generating energy for the motors could potentially have a larger input delay...idk though, hopefully Alex could comment on what the acceleration feels like in regards to that. [It might be just me, but I always enjoy Alex's videos compared to the others...he has the goofy Linus kind of vibe going on].

HFC cars like the Mirai basically are BEV's, like a Tesla. They have a battery pack, and that's what drives the motors. You can think of the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Gas as more of an on-board Generator and fuel supply.

 

Due to that, there should be zero delay caused by the Fuel Cell generating electricity - that would be used to keep the batteries from dropping to zero.

[Luscious]

The high price of the hydrogen and availability of fill ups are just 2 of the problems that are immediate now. The far bigger issue and something that will come into play later is servicing. Batteries die, so any vehicle that has one in it will end up a very expensive paperweight when it comes time to change it and it doesn't get done. Why would you avoid the service? Cost. When that used car is now worth ~$6K and you have a dead battery that costs the same $6K to replace the car becomes a throwaway. Need proof? Just look at all the taxi fleet Priuses being dumped when it's time to get their batteries swapped. That's unlike a used gasoline car that you can still sell for $6K and be happy.

 

This battery servicing is a huge problem with EV's as well. Tesla charges an absurd amount for the service on their cars which makes the price of used Tesla's a tough pill to swallow. At the end of the day, these cars will never be cheap to buy or own, even used. Some people think having your own home solar farm makes an EV free to use lol. There needs to be a breakthrough in battery technology and energy storage for EV's to actually challenge the internal combustion engine - the truth is we're just not there yet, and probably won't be for a while.

 

And we are only talking about cars here, not aircraft, trains, ships, heavy equipment etc. that also depend on that black gold to run. I would go ahead and splurge on that brand new V8 or V12 and NOT feel guilty about those tailpipe emissions - the environmental damage done from dumped/leaking and mishandled batteries is FAR WORSE.

[wanderingfool2]

49 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

HFC cars like the Mirai basically are BEV's, like a Tesla. They have a battery pack, and that's what drives the motors. You can think of the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Gas as more of an on-board Generator and fuel supply.

 

Due to that, there should be zero delay caused by the Fuel Cell generating electricity - that would be used to keep the batteries from dropping to zero.

From the admittedly little research I've done, it's similar to the Camry Hybrid battery which means it's pitifully small though (apparently only 1.6 kWH)...so not sure if it is really enough energy to be able to properly drive an electric motor (at higher accelerations).

 

49 minutes ago, Luscious said:

This battery servicing is a huge problem with EV's as well. Tesla charges an absurd amount for the service on their cars which makes the price of used Tesla's a tough pill to swallow. At the end of the day, these cars will never be cheap to buy or own, even used. Some people think having your own home solar farm makes an EV free to use lol. There needs to be a breakthrough in battery technology and energy storage for EV's to actually challenge the internal combustion engine - the truth is we're just not there yet, and probably won't be for a while.

It depends really.  Taking a company like Tesla which is more vertically integrated, they are making something like 30% off vehicles sold...mix that with concept of some of the new batteries coming out and there is likely a lot of wiggle room in the future to get it to an affordable level.

[LuxorAB]

How far can it go on 1kg of Hydrogen? (or for better metric: how much hydrogen it needs to drive 100km?)

 

1 hour ago, Luscious said:

Need proof? Just look at all the taxi fleet Priuses being dumped when it's time to get their batteries swapped.

Battery on Prius is small as hell and therefore uses its resource very fast. Like 500 charges on Tesla with 400 miles range and it is 200k miles we are talking about.

[ToboRobot]

I like the idea of wind turbines churning out Hydrogen when dumping wind power into the grid isn't needed/feasible, and using that as stored energy.  If it can be stored and used in place, you don't have any transit loss.  Or you can have autonomous trucks deliver it.  

[Quackers101]

there is a HUGE issue around batteries for EV cars, and more people are voicing their concerns.

We rely too much on the "next battery solution", and claiming this is "green" when it currently is not a stable market.

While hydrogen is not a solution either, it can help in many other fields like the trucks or planes. But you would need emergency solutions, something EV's dont really have? If the pressure drops or leaking, that you can just swap in another tank and keep going same when used in planes. Needing that backup, if something where to go wrong. Not sure if they kind of showed that in the video, or if there is different sections of these tanks in the car. Also repair could be a pain, but I guess not worse than electric car batteries and software.

 

then there is producing the hydrogen and storage, which could only work for dedicated systems not for people and their cars. Also if solid state hydrogen becomes a thing.

[HenrySalayne]

Quote

There are two ways to store hydrogen - liquid and compressed.

*metal hydrides crying in the corner*

 

[VikasRana]

The problem with electrolysis is that it creates O3 alongside with O2, that is why they still use natural gas. O3 is not good for health and since its heavier than O2 it remains on the ground unless sent to upper atmosphere which is a major problem in making Green Hydrogen.

[derr12]

5 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Can people STOP harping about acceleration in electric cars already? 9.1 sec 0-100 km/s is plenty enough for anyone. I always hate how all reviewers always orgasm over Tesla's acceleration and then everyone drags their electric asses around in slow motion from any intersection because it ruins their average consumption in real world use if they hurry up a bit. It's such a stupid thing people reviewers do and it really annoys me. $50k is not even that much for a car of this size. All the EV's cost 30k € and they are the size of Renault Zoe. It's a freaking tiny EV for those who don't know. One would think Nissan Leaf would drop in price after existing for so many years and have one of the most primitive battery systems, yet it's still freaking 35k € as starting price. It's insane. It has been over 10 years and EV's are still as expensive as when they were released. They suck a bit less, but they are still entirely unobtainable to most normal people and make even less sense if you do very little driving as you'll never get back the absurd difference in cheaper "fuel". Also lets not forget electricity won't be this cheap forever. The more cars go into electric charging, the higher electricity cost will be, because someone will like to get the petrol tax somehow and where they'll get it if not from petrol? Yeah...

 

Only affordable EV car in whole existence is Dacia Spring at around 17k €. Just to be disappointed with its very spartan equipment and only has 45 HP and top speed of 125 km/h (77 MPH). It accelerates to 100km/h (60 MPH) in about 20 seconds and has a specified range of 230 kilometers (143 miles). It's the only EV that you can actually call a full proper car yet it still costs as much as a 100 HP Renault Clio which is much more powerful, has higher range and is a bigger car.

wifes old banged out 323 did it in like... 15 seconds. served us well for many years.

 

 

[Ultraforce]

I wonder if there will eventually be a video discussing the whole thing of how, in all likelihood, the main actual solution for car pollution issues is just getting rid of cars as personal transport/private transport such as cars and motorcycles are just terrible ideas from a city planning and design perspective and having busses or light rail transit as the main transportation system for longer distances just is a lot more efficient. Maybe giant parking lots would be needed at nodes in the outskirts to deal with people coming in from rural areas where the train or bus don't come to super easily.

[HenrySalayne]

11 minutes ago, Vikas Rana said:

The problem with electrolysis is that it creates O3 alongside with O2, that is why they still use natural gas. O3 is not good for health and since its heavier than O2 it remains on the ground unless sent to upper atmosphere which is a major problem in making Green Hydrogen.

Different processes will produce different amounts of O3, but it's always much less compared to O2. Ozone is also unstable and can quite easily be reduced to oxygen via a catalyst. This is a solvable problem and only a minor inconvenience.

 

[Luscious]

59 minutes ago, LuxorAB said:

Battery on Prius is small as hell and therefore uses its resource very fast. Like 500 charges on Tesla with 400 miles range and it is 200k miles we are talking about.

Except those taxis are pushing 100-150 miles a day - that's 50K miles a year easy, meaning that 200K is ticking at 4 years already, maybe 6 if you find a less abused one lol

 

Yeah, 6 year old Hybrid/EV with 200K miles needing a $6K battery swap at it's end-of-life versus a 6 year old gasoline car that you can still find on a showroom floor complete with a factory certified warranty - apples to oranges pal!

[LuxorAB]

Warranty on 200k miles car? Good luck, lol

 

What the costs of maintaining ICE and gearbox for 200k miles, btw? How much ICE cars are even making it to 200k?

[wanderingfool2]

17 minutes ago, Luscious said:

Except those taxis are pushing 100-150 miles a day - that's 50K miles a year easy, meaning that 200K is ticking at 4 years already, maybe 6 if you find a less abused one lol

 

Yeah, 6 year old Hybrid/EV with 200K miles needing a $6K battery swap at it's end-of-life versus a 6 year old gasoline car that you can still find on a showroom floor complete with a factory certified warranty - apples to oranges pal!

So only using Tesla because the numbers are easier to find (and things like GM has had a battery recall, so not really a good use case)...but the average Tesla still retains 90% charge after 250,000 km.

 

Or in better terms, 15% degradation after 200,000 miles....honestly after 200k miles I'd expect that you would need to do still an okay amount of maintenance on a ICE vehicle...in this case though you still can get a decent amount of range.  [There was a company who ran a fleet of Teslas, along with other ICE vehicles and they concluded that overall ownership was cheaper in the long haul even after 500k miles]

[Egg-Roll]

At first I assumed Toy sponsored this video (before seeing it) and like Physics Girl threw a car at you and let you keep it 

 

Also Sorry @AlexTheGreatish but you're wrong hydrogen isn't the end all solution you think it is for truckers, unlike us normies they have very strict laws to uphold and if they don't they not only can lose their jobs but their licenses potentially being banned from regretting them again. This means as long as the trucks sold as EVs can last at least said regulations and can charge within the break periods to or near full EVs will always be the future. For example in the USA it looks like a new 30 for 14/8 rule was passed as the bare minimum which means a trucker after 8 hours HAS to take a break and can only drive 11 hours (if I recall) in a 14 hour shift, so effectively a truck that can do 800 miles be forced to charge and only charge half of what was used in said 30 minutes and effectively work. In Canada we have a 30 13 14 rule required to take a 30 minute break and can't drive more than 13 hours in a 14 hour shift with a 10 hour off time.

 

The issue we have right now is range, Tesla claims (unproven) up to 500 miles, the Freightliner eCascadia can do up to 250 miles. However all this becomes pointless if anyone introduces this with a standard (like EU's charging port standard)

 

Also you are wrong about where you can live, I know I know most people are in the USA but... We do have chargers here in Canada and EU has a few too (likely more than us if Nikola is anything to go based on), but they all have the same issue, lack of locations, transportation etc. EVs? Even non-Teslas? Yea, I think I'm done humiliatingly a nearly 25 year old dead horse (that came into the spotlight after the murder of the EVs in the early 2000s) continuously being flogged... Just let it be man... Unless you can somehow produce it at the station then sure it becomes viable, but wait it doesn't there's a reason why Toy got cheap on the motor, that cell isn't cheap and never likely will be lol, imo hydrogen makes a great battery storage medium, but then again so does water being pushed up a mountain into a basin...

 

11 minutes ago, Luscious said:

apples to oranges pal!

Prius's have always been the butt end of the joke when it comes to all things EVs, you just need to look at how the average one drives and acts  Up till recently all EVs and hybrids have been built to please laws, NOW we are seeing EVs that we need only because of Tesla who also in turn has proven big auto they were wrong from the beginning (EV1 days) and have reintroduced laws and deadlines that should have been 15 years earlier. Also yea lets all assume all EVs are trash because one is... Prius isn't like the mach-e or a tesla, it's the orange to a apple (I like apples more), it's a useless little (and over priced) putter to give people with range anxiety that good feeling of helping the environment while basically doing nothing...

 

10 minutes ago, LuxorAB said:

Warranty on 200k miles car? Good luck, lol

 

What the costs of maintaining ICE and gearbox for 200k miles, btw? How much ICE cars are even making it to 200k?

I say most drivers trash their cars pre 150K miles due to mechanical issues, those who keep past that either know how to fix their own vehicles or got lucky. Most taxi drivers trash theirs after 4/5 years due to maintenance costs (I think most laws allow 7 years) lol.