Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

You're Wrong About Hydrogen Cars

AlexTheGreatish
 Share

7 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

So only using Tesla because the numbers are easier to find (and things like GM has had a battery recall, so not really a good use case)...but the average Tesla still retains 90% charge after 250,000 km.

 

Or in better terms, 15% degradation after 200,000 miles....honestly after 200k miles I'd expect that you would need to do still an okay amount of maintenance on a ICE vehicle...in this case though you still can get a decent amount of range.  [There was a company who ran a fleet of Teslas, along with other ICE vehicles and they concluded that overall ownership was cheaper in the long haul even after 500k miles]

That's a fair assessment, but like you say, it depends heavily on the car and the specific cells they're using. Even a gasoline car can be run into the ground well before 100K miles let alone 200K. Other EV's and hybrids will each be different.

 

The critical part is battery placement - do they make it easily serviceable, can it be removed without tearing the entire car apart, are the cells easily swappable and recyclable etc... Man hours are a big chunk of any service bill, so the less time spent "dicking around" for a mechanic to get the job done means more hours for the car on the road and less cash out by the owner. In the same fashion, an easily disassemblable/recyclable battery will cut down on manufacturing costs which in turn will cut down on the replacement/new cost.

 

Those new EV designs that want to use the battery as an integrated structural element of the vehicle = very bad idea!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Luscious said:

an easily disassemblable/recyclable battery will cut down on manufacturing costs which in turn will cut down on the replacement/new cost.

Incorrect, a cell that can be soldered by a machine is significantly cheaper than a cell that is wired via replaceable connectors, since their in the business for low defects high profits using precision machinery to solder things consistently and accurately would be cheaper and more reliable for them however bad for us consumers. We've seen this with our phones where we used to be able to change the battery to now we have sealed batteries behind something that can easily get destroyed by trying to remove the battery. Also before you start spewing any nonsense about the benefits I would like you to know the Samsung S5 existed... Only benefit modern phones have now are wireless charging, everything else was able to be had with removable batteries, so why did they die out? Price, a sealed phone is significantly cheaper to make from designing to manufacturing.

 

When Tesla hits the media quoting someone 20K for a new battery (outside of the 15 cent piece issue), it's because it's cheaper and easier (for them) to replace everything with new vs balancing all packs to function at the best they can. Rich Rebuilds and others have talking about battery balancing so I won't go into detail, but unbalanced batteries = bad. We will soon see this with Ford GM etc as well, it won't just be a Tesla thing as they've done it with their ICE vehicles as well (hiding parts, over charging etc) trying to push new sales even claiming they'll give you the government grant amount (not on top of) for your old vehicle as a trade in as a "kind gesture"...

 

I do agree built in batteries in the panels are a stupid idea and should be outright banned that's worst than our phone issue...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, LuxorAB said:

Warranty on 200k miles car? Good luck, lol

 

What the costs of maintaining ICE and gearbox for 200k miles, btw? How much ICE cars are even making it to 200k?

Filler ups = weekly

Engine oil/filter change = 6-12 months

Air filter cleaning = 12 months

Accessory belts = 2-3 years

Timing belt change = 75-100K miles

ATF oil change = 100-120K miles

Water pump = 40-60K miles

Fuel pump change = 100K miles

12V battery swap = 4-6 years

Alternator change = 80-160K miles

Spark plugs = 100K miles

 

Notice I'm not including brakes/shocks/tires/AC compressor - still need those done on your EV as well.

 

None of these in itself will be particularly costly or time intensive and a good mechanic will tell you what needs to get done when even if you don't have a service interval provided by the factory. Price will depend on the complexity of the engine (4/6/8 cyl., turbo/non-turbo). Some cars are very strict on what you do when, such as oil changes where the engine oil also lubricates a high-rpm turbo for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Can people STOP harping about acceleration in electric cars already? 9.1 sec 0-100 km/s is plenty enough for anyone. I always hate how all reviewers always orgasm over Tesla's acceleration and then everyone drags their electric asses around in slow motion from any intersection because it ruins their average consumption in real world use if they hurry up a bit. It's such a stupid thing people reviewers do and it really annoys me. $50k is not even that much for a car of this size. All the EV's cost 30k € and they are the size of Renault Zoe. It's a freaking tiny EV for those who don't know. One would think Nissan Leaf would drop in price after existing for so many years and have one of the most primitive battery systems, yet it's still freaking 35k € as starting price. It's insane. It has been over 10 years and EV's are still as expensive as when they were released. They suck a bit less, but they are still entirely unobtainable to most normal people and make even less sense if you do very little driving as you'll never get back the absurd difference in cheaper "fuel". Also lets not forget electricity won't be this cheap forever. The more cars go into electric charging, the higher electricity cost will be, because someone will like to get the petrol tax somehow and where they'll get it if not from petrol? Yeah...

 

Only affordable EV car in whole existence is Dacia Spring at around 17k €. Just to be disappointed with its very spartan equipment and only has 45 HP and top speed of 125 km/h (77 MPH). It accelerates to 100km/h (60 MPH) in about 20 seconds and has a specified range of 230 kilometers (143 miles). It's the only EV that you can actually call a full proper car yet it still costs as much as a 100 HP Renault Clio which is much more powerful, has higher range and is a bigger car.

There is potential for a much simpler drivetrain with electric vs an internal combustion engine, and reduced maintenance requirements (no oil, no air filter, no timing belts or chains, etc). The monstrous amount of power a small brushless motor can output also opens the door to establish actual standards for the drivetrain, further simplifying designs, and allowing for easy repairs.  For low speed driving, you can even utilize outrunner brushless motors in a direct drive config for the wheels themselves (benefits of a 4WD without the mechanical complexity). Standardized battery modules would go a very long way to mitigating the battery lifespan problem.

 

However, the execution thus far has been dreadful, with EVs leaning toward being more complex and proprietary, costing us a lot of crucial advantages of going electric, and regulators do not seem especially keen on taking advantage of the transition to provide new rules that would empower the consumer. There isn't even a universal charging standard for EVs...

 

For hydrogen, if public transit was massively expanded, I can see it being quite viable.

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Can people STOP harping about acceleration in electric cars already?

i actually care about this because it makes overtaking cars much quicker (and safer) if used responsibly

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

i actually care about this because it makes overtaking cars much quicker (and safer) if used responsibly

And there's a lot of crap on-ramps around here. There's on-ramps that are short, and spit you out on an uphill (I'm pretty much redlining my car just to get up to the speed of traffic). There's on-ramps that go from a sharp turn to spitting you out. Similar problem, in a slower car, you need to divide your attention between the ramp you're accelerating on (so you don't run off the road), and the actual highway so as to get a clear spot to merge. Car with lots of power means more forgiveness here, and not having to rocket around a corner at > 50 MPH  just to have enough speed for a clean merge with 80+ MPH traffic at the end. (There's a reason I fork out for expensive tires on the Mazda). Uphill overtakes, probably not happening at under 120 HP unless the thing you're passing is very slow.

 

Pretty much if you live in a place with lots of hill and mountains, you're going to want some power and a good gear configuration.

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Moonzy said:

i actually care about this because it makes overtaking cars much quicker (and safer) if used responsibly

Well, technically overtaking is more of a torque thing. I drive a car with 70hp/110nmm and close ratio (I can even list top speeds per gear lol) 5mt, as long as you are familiar with the gearbox and torque curve of the car, overtaking is not a problem. Only thing an old fart might consider a problem is, when the car is full with stuff (car is wet 1090kg with me in it and I am talking 500 kilograms on top of that), climbing up and down few thousand meter elevation changes becomes a third gear job (which again, is able to hit 110kph and no road here is rated past 120kph).

 

That being said, having driven a heavily modified 2010 535d with 10 times more torque and 8 times the power of my car sure feels better BUT I wouldnt necessarily get a 570whp/990nm car as a daily just because it hauls ass in 6th gear.

 

 

TLDR: Torque curve and gearbox is what matters for overtaking, not acceleration.

mY s YsTeM iS Not pErfoRmInG aS gOOd As I sAW oN yOuTuBe. WhA t IS a GoOd FaN CuRVe??!!? wHat aRe tEh GoOd OvERclok SeTTinGS FoR My CaRd??
 HoW CaN I foRcE my GpU to uSe 1o0%? BuT WiLL i HaVE Bo0tllEnEcKs? RyZEN dOeS NoT peRfORm BetTer wItH HiGhER sPEED RaM!!dId i WiN teH SiLiCON LotTerrYyOu ShoUlD dEsHrOuD uR GPUmy SYstEm iS UNDerPerforMiNg iN WarzONEcan mY Pc Run WiNdOwS 11 ?woUld BaKInG MY GRaPHics card fIX it?
 MultimETeR TeSTiNG!! aMd'S GpU DrIvErS aRe as goOD aS NviDia's YOU SHoUlD oVERCloCk yOUR ramS To 5000C18

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Levent said:

TLDR: Torque curve and gearbox is what matters for overtaking, not acceleration.

I'm not a car guy and I drive an auto

And the car I drive doesn't have the power to accelerate enough to give me confidence to overtake cars in many scenarios

 

Also, I may be wrong but what torque and gearbox affects is acceleration in the end anyways, so I don't think I'm wrong for saying that what I need is acceleration

-sigh- feeling like I'm being too negative lately

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I'm not a car guy and I drive an auto

And the car I drive doesn't have the power to accelerate enough to give me confidence to overtake cars in many scenarios

 

Also, I may be wrong but what torque and gearbox affects is acceleration in the end anyways, so I don't think I'm wrong for saying that what I need is acceleration

Yes you are correct, more gears, closer gear ratios and faster gear changes will result in faster acceleration, however acceleration values released by manufacturers are usually for 0-100kph unless you are buying a sporty car, which is not a good indication of good the car is to drive or to pass others.

mY s YsTeM iS Not pErfoRmInG aS gOOd As I sAW oN yOuTuBe. WhA t IS a GoOd FaN CuRVe??!!? wHat aRe tEh GoOd OvERclok SeTTinGS FoR My CaRd??
 HoW CaN I foRcE my GpU to uSe 1o0%? BuT WiLL i HaVE Bo0tllEnEcKs? RyZEN dOeS NoT peRfORm BetTer wItH HiGhER sPEED RaM!!dId i WiN teH SiLiCON LotTerrYyOu ShoUlD dEsHrOuD uR GPUmy SYstEm iS UNDerPerforMiNg iN WarzONEcan mY Pc Run WiNdOwS 11 ?woUld BaKInG MY GRaPHics card fIX it?
 MultimETeR TeSTiNG!! aMd'S GpU DrIvErS aRe as goOD aS NviDia's YOU SHoUlD oVERCloCk yOUR ramS To 5000C18

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, LuxorAB said:

Warranty on 200k miles car? Good luck, lol

 

What the costs of maintaining ICE and gearbox for 200k miles, btw? How much ICE cars are even making it to 200k?

200k ? That's NOTHING. All modern ICE engines can last for 1 million kilometers easily if you service them as recommended by manufacturer. And everyone exaggerates ICE engine servicing. If it's a chain timed engine, only servicing cost per interval is the oil, oil filter and air filter. If you do it yourself or your local mechanic instead of official service, the cost of work is minimal, making it minimal cost as whole while extending engine life significantly. People don't understand how little cost there is for maintenance compared to cost you'll get if you don't. Worn piston rings require opening of entire engine or worse, skimping on timing belt service and risking bending of engine head and all the pistons means rebuilding of almost entire engine. Service your cars properly!

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X | ASUS Strix X570-E | G.Skill 32GB 3733MHz CL16 | PALIT RTX 3080 10GB GamingPro | Samsung 850 Pro 2TB | Seagate Barracuda 8TB | Sound Blaster AE-9 MUSES Edition | Altec Lansing MX5021 Nichicon/MUSES Edition

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Luscious said:

Engine oil/filter change = 6-12 months

8 hours ago, Luscious said:

Some cars are very strict on what you do when, such as oil changes where the engine oil also lubricates a high-rpm turbo for example.

lol what? Maybe you should read your owners manual before saying such things... Fords states x kms (I think 5000) or 3/4 months which ever comes first. If you don't use synthetic then maybe. That's a midclass model too... I know no owners manual that puts only months in their oil change timelines. FYI someone driving 100km a day to/from work (easy to do here) would need an oil change every 10 weeks. 

8 hours ago, Luscious said:

Accessory belts = 2-3 years

Timing belt change = 75-100K miles

Water pump = 40-60K miles

Fuel pump change = 100K miles

12V battery swap = 4-6 years

Alternator change = 80-160K miles

Nope all wrong, some of those things can go indefinitely and other times die before the times you stated. The 12V battery could only last 2-3 years (or only months if you get cheap/bad luck) where temps drop to extremes (FYI Tesla has 12V batteries too so no idea why you think they don't), and my family have never had a fuel or water pump fail on them except on one car that was reaching 200K miles...

 

 

8 hours ago, Luscious said:

Notice I'm not including brakes

Depending on where you live and how you drive you'll actually never have to touch the brakes in a EV. However I would at least get them checked every few months at least annually to make sure they are still in good condition.

 

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Service your cars properly!

Can you yell a little louder I don't think everyone has heard you yet... Reason why I refuse to buy used I know most don't maintain their vehicles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

lol what? Maybe you should read your owners manual before saying such things... Fords states x kms (I think 5000) or 3/4 months which ever comes first. If you don't use synthetic then maybe. That's a midclass model too... I know no owners manual that puts only months in their oil change timelines. FYI someone driving 100km a day to/from work (easy to do here) would need an oil change every 10 weeks. 

Nope all wrong, some of those things can go indefinitely and other times die before the times you stated. The 12V battery could only last 2-3 years (or only months if you get cheap/bad luck) where temps drop to extremes (FYI Tesla has 12V batteries too so no idea why you think they don't), and my family have never had a fuel or water pump fail on them except on one car that was reaching 200K miles...

 

 

Depending on where you live and how you drive you'll actually never have to touch the brakes in a EV. However I would at least get them checked every few months at least annually to make sure they are still in good condition.

 

Can you yell a little louder I don't think everyone has heard you yet... Reason why I refuse to buy used I know most don't maintain their vehicles.

Buying used cars can be done, but if they say timing belt and oil was just changed, don't take word for it and barter for price decrease for cost of that service if you can. We had used cars and first thing we did was to change all of it, especially timing belt. People are lying assholes and when you'll have all 16 valves twisted into trombones, it'll be a little late for being a smartass. So you proactively replace it to be sure. Unless whoever is selling i to you is trustworthy enough to know it has really been done.

 

It's why my dad always says it's gonna be a shame to sell my car to anyone outside family. It's 12 years old, has only real 60k kilometers on the clock and is always serviced properly. And when stuff got worn or broke, I replaced it all in pairs or entirely. Like shocks, brake pads, discs etc, I never replace just the bit it was broken, but also connected stuff that needs replacing, like bearings on top of front shocks even though only shocks need replacing.

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X | ASUS Strix X570-E | G.Skill 32GB 3733MHz CL16 | PALIT RTX 3080 10GB GamingPro | Samsung 850 Pro 2TB | Seagate Barracuda 8TB | Sound Blaster AE-9 MUSES Edition | Altec Lansing MX5021 Nichicon/MUSES Edition

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember signing up for a home fuel cell unit from Plug Power about 20 years ago.

Feed it natural gas, get electricity and heat for your home!

Still waiting for them to "perfect the technology"

I guess their stock price tells the story eh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Luscious said:

This battery servicing is a huge problem with EV's as well. Tesla charges an absurd amount for the service on their cars which makes the price of used Tesla's a tough pill to swallow. At the end of the day, these cars will never be cheap to buy or own, even used. Some people think having your own home solar farm makes an EV free to use lol. There needs to be a breakthrough in battery technology and energy storage for EV's to actually challenge the internal combustion engine - the truth is we're just not there yet, and probably won't be for a while.

I'm afraid you are mistaken here. EVs are much cheaper to own than ICE vehicles due to needing far less maintenance. And of course, running on electricity rather than expensive fossil fuels.

 

Batteries are typically under warranty for a long time, and don't forget that battery prices are decreasing all the time.

 

I'm not sure what kind of breakthrough would be needed in battery technology. I could never go back to an ICE vehicle again.

  

15 hours ago, Luscious said:

The critical part is battery placement - do they make it easily serviceable, can it be removed without tearing the entire car apart, are the cells easily swappable and recyclable etc... Man hours are a big chunk of any service bill, so the less time spent "dicking around" for a mechanic to get the job done means more hours for the car on the road and less cash out by the owner. In the same fashion, an easily disassemblable/recyclable battery will cut down on manufacturing costs which in turn will cut down on the replacement/new cost.

 

Those new EV designs that want to use the battery as an integrated structural element of the vehicle = very bad idea!

Once again you are mistaken.

 

The battery will typically outlast the rest of the car.

 

And in a situation where a structural battery pack is so damaged it would need replacement, an ICE vehicle would also have been totalled anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Luscious said:

Notice I'm not including brakes/shocks/tires/AC compressor - still need those done on your EV as well.

Brakes need less replacing/servicing on BEV's, but tires are more frequent (due to the weight of the vehicle)...but yea overall less maintenance.

 

4 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

lol what? Maybe you should read your owners manual before saying such things... Fords states x kms (I think 5000) or 3/4 months which ever comes first. If you don't use synthetic then maybe. That's a midclass model too... I know no owners manual that puts only months in their oil change timelines. FYI someone driving 100km a day to/from work (easy to do here) would need an oil change every 10 weeks. 

The funny thing about you professing to read the owners manual and then spouting off made up numbers.

 

Let's look at Ford Escapes service schedule.

2008 and newer vehicles -     Every 7,500 miles/six months (that's about 12,000km not your guess of 5,000)

 

Other vehicles and manufacturers are the same, where it's roughly every 6 months and around 12000 km.

 

5 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Nope all wrong, some of those things can go indefinitely and other times die before the times you stated. The 12V battery could only last 2-3 years (or only months if you get cheap/bad luck) where temps drop to extremes (FYI Tesla has 12V batteries too so no idea why you think they don't), and my family have never had a fuel or water pump fail on them except on one car that was reaching 200K miles...

12V batteries lead acid (which in a Tesla are being swapped for LiPo I believe) are less abused on EV (they don't have to power the starter motor)...so with the newer switch away from lead acid then the life-span of the 12V system batteries I'm betting will jump to 10 years.

 

9 hours ago, RejZoR said:

200k ? That's NOTHING. All modern ICE engines can last for 1 million kilometers easily if you service them as recommended by manufacturer. And everyone exaggerates ICE engine servicing

Well in all fairness he said 200k miles, which is roughly 322,000 km.  At 300k km, my van needed a new transmission...which isn't exactly cheap.

 

9 hours ago, RejZoR said:

If it's a chain timed engine, only servicing cost per interval is the oil, oil filter and air filter. If you do it yourself or your local mechanic instead of official service, the cost of work is minimal, making it minimal cost as whole while extending engine life significantly.

Doing it yourself and having it cost less though doesn't invalidate the point that ICE vehicles need those maintenance to stay in proper shape (otherwise have a massive cost for engine rebuilds etc).  Most people can't do it themselves (and based on the newer environmental laws and the disposal of used oil, it's getting harder to do so)...and it's hard to find a trusted local mechanic (ever had the wrong type of oil put into a vehicle...it's not fun).  Let's ball-park the cost at $40 for a cheaper oil change (cost of oil and time spent changing oil)...on a 322,000km car that would be about 27 oil changes at a cost of $1080.

 

The more preventative maintenance you do the less massive bills you will face, but at the same time there are still a considerable amount of maintenance costs for a vehicle hitting 322,000km (it's just spread out overtime)

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

metal hydrides

Metal Hydride is great, the only issue is the the weight and heat needed during release.

Seen cylinders get cold and lowers to pressure below the needed level for the fuel cell

PC: Alienware 15 R3  Cpu: 7700hq  GPu : 1070 OC   Display: 1080p IPS Gsync panel 60hz  Storage: 970 evo 250 gb / 970 evo plus 500gb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

How is the Hydrogen produced? The US might be better off switching over to a Bio or Green form of gasoline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Brakes need less replacing/servicing on BEV's, but tires are more frequent (due to the weight of the vehicle)...but yea overall less maintenance.

 

The funny thing about you professing to read the owners manual and then spouting off made up numbers.

 

Let's look at Ford Escapes service schedule.

2008 and newer vehicles -     Every 7,500 miles/six months (that's about 12,000km not your guess of 5,000)

 

Other vehicles and manufacturers are the same, where it's roughly every 6 months and around 12000 km.

 

12V batteries lead acid (which in a Tesla are being swapped for LiPo I believe) are less abused on EV (they don't have to power the starter motor)...so with the newer switch away from lead acid then the life-span of the 12V system batteries I'm betting will jump to 10 years.

 

Well in all fairness he said 200k miles, which is roughly 322,000 km.  At 300k km, my van needed a new transmission...which isn't exactly cheap.

 

Doing it yourself and having it cost less though doesn't invalidate the point that ICE vehicles need those maintenance to stay in proper shape (otherwise have a massive cost for engine rebuilds etc).  Most people can't do it themselves (and based on the newer environmental laws and the disposal of used oil, it's getting harder to do so)...and it's hard to find a trusted local mechanic (ever had the wrong type of oil put into a vehicle...it's not fun).  Let's ball-park the cost at $40 for a cheaper oil change (cost of oil and time spent changing oil)...on a 322,000km car that would be about 27 oil changes at a cost of $1080.

 

The more preventative maintenance you do the less massive bills you will face, but at the same time there are still a considerable amount of maintenance costs for a vehicle hitting 322,000km (it's just spread out overtime)

A vehicle should never require transmission replacement in its entire life time. Unless it was driven by a deaf granny or a brutus infinitus who can't shift for shit. Or the transmission was made of crispy crackers. VW is somewhat famous with that... Also wow, whole 1080€ for oil? Spread across how many years and kilometers? Or having to pay 15k € more upfront simply because it's an EV? Sure EV's have advantages with electric motors, but not at prices they are selling them now.

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X | ASUS Strix X570-E | G.Skill 32GB 3733MHz CL16 | PALIT RTX 3080 10GB GamingPro | Samsung 850 Pro 2TB | Seagate Barracuda 8TB | Sound Blaster AE-9 MUSES Edition | Altec Lansing MX5021 Nichicon/MUSES Edition

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, whm1974 said:

How is the Hydrogen produced? The US might be better off switching over to a Bio or Green form of gasoline.

A decent amount of the bio fuels are actually quite bad overall.  It's a good concept in terms of using waste to turn it into bio fuels, but what has ended up happening is that crops are switched from food producing crops to higher yielding bio-fuel crops.  With the processing and everything of bio-fuel you usually end up with either a slightly more carbon neutral fuel, to a heavier polluter.  The other issue being that it then causes food/feed prices to rise, as less crops for that, and now we are in a worse situation than before.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that bio-fuels could be a good step but the way governments are pushing it it is less clean and causes a lot more problems than standard fuels (in my opinion).

 

To speak how hydrogen is produced, the answer is it depends.  A simple, but not very cost effective way, is running electricity through water/salt brine mixture.  It produces hydrogen and oxygen...in terms of sustainability it's this kind of process that is to be looked at.

 

Other ways, as mentioned in the video, it's effectively using methane and water at a high heat to form hydrogen, co2 and other byproducts.  This is effectively a very dirty form of producing hydrogen.

 

18 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

At first I assumed Toy sponsored this video (before seeing it) and like Physics Girl threw a car at you and let you keep it 

I'm glad they didn't what Physics Girl did and mention Nikola as well...although it still seems as though they still use the quick "fueling" as a benefit, when it might actually mean a lot less.  Yes, BEV will always take longer to "refuel" as a conventional vehicle...but when the vehicles start reaching a point of being able to be driven for like 8 hours straight before needing a top-up then it means a lot less, as most places legally require the driver to take a break.  So if lets say they are required to have a 30 min break in an 8 hour drive. (which could add like 200 miles).  The time it takes makes less of a difference then.

 

Honestly, I would like to know the amount of affiliation with Toyota on this one.  It really seems as though it was another Toyota sponsored video (without saying it is).  If someone from LTT could clarify that would be great.  Like who fronted the bill to go to California, and drive around the Mirai; there is a link in the description and the way it was written it does seem as though Toyota is contributing to this video but it wasn't really fully disclosed.

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problems I see with hydrogen is the peak theoretical efficiency of such a system. And its rather lack luster energy density.

 

Electrolysis is quite inefficient. The most efficient industrial scale systems I have seen is about 60%, on the scientific workbench getting a bit over 70% is possible.

And fuel cells have fairly poor efficiency as well. The best ones are closer to 80%, but gets poisoned by various contaminates in the air. (in short, to get above about 50% you need a clean source of pure O2 onboard.)

 

The whole argument people make that "We can use excess energy from the grid to make the hydrogen and then use it later" doesn't really make sense.

For a peak efficiency hydrogen system we can realistically only get to about 60% round trip, and that is rather lousy. In practice the number is lower. (And excess energy on the grid tends to happen at night, and this is when electric cars tend to be plugged in and ready to charge. Just sync up supply/demand a bit more through web APIs and that excess won't be wasted.)

 

Compressed Air Energy Storage makes more sense on a large scale than hydrogen does as far as grid based storage goes. (though, a lot of people look at their shop compressor built for flow and states that compressed air is laughably inefficient, not realizing their stupidity.) However, CAES doesn't make sense for cars due to its rather low energy density that is only slightly less dense than hydrogen. (Hydrogen doesn't store a lot even at 900 bar.) (Compressed air energy storage on a grid scale can get rather dense. If one keeps the capacity/power ratio at 20:1 then reaching a round trip efficiency of 80-85% isn't impossible and with a pressure of 16 MPa one reaches 19.5 kWh/m^3. Now most actual CAES installations looks a bit too much at "power" so their capacity/power ratio is typically bellow 5:1, and when dealing with compressed air one wants a low power density compared to the energy stored, thereby having slow compression/decompression, speed isn't your friend here, but axial turbines are a rather decent way to get out plenty of power with fairly high efficiency. And a realistic installation would have a capacity of around 10 GWh/km^2 if stored underground. But there is still a lot more that can be done in this field, but the more "exotic" hydrogen is currently in the spotlight...)

 

Another energy source that people however overlook is the rather insane methane production in sewage treatment plants, there you have a free source of easily captured energy, and methane stores a lot more energy at a much lower pressure than hydrogen, and is less wear intensive on an ICE. (not to mention likely produces less NOx due to the lower flame temperature. And there is fuel cells that runs on methane as well and these aren't much different than the ones for hydrogen) One can also rather efficiently convert methane to ethane, a gas that has even higher energy density at an even lower pressure and isn't far bellow petrol as far as energy density goes. (the methane production in sewage treatment plants is however usually considered unwanted and since it is a green house gas a lot of governments have put up requirements for minimizing the methane production. Where two easy solutions is to either stir the mix and/or bubble air through it, and these methods reduces the methane production by over 90%, and still sewage plants world wide puts out millions of tons of methane into the air annually. And a lot of sewage plants world wide are starting to open up their eyes to this somewhat lucrative free energy bubbling out of their soup. Honestly, this would be a topic worth while making a video on, since it is literally a largely unused and unknown energy source that is trivial to store for times of need.)

 

For long range vehicles biogas makes a fair bit more sense than hydrogen. Though, trains makes even more sense here than trucks as long as there is sufficiently much transport for that journey. (trains though brings along extra logistics and paperwork so it has some major downsides. Aside from putting down rails.)

 

In the end.

Hydrogen doesn't make much sense from a density point of view, nor efficiency. And steam reformation of natural gas is frankly the only way to make it viable on an industrial scale if you want it to be cheap compared to electricity. While battery electric cars have the big advantage of being able to charge at home at the time of day that electricity on the grid is most likely to be in excess, ie during the night.

 

In my own regard, pure hydrogen as an energy storage medium is overhyped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The funny thing about you professing to read the owners manual and then spouting off made up numbers.

 

Let's look at Ford Escapes service schedule.

2008 and newer vehicles -     Every 7,500 miles/six months (that's about 12,000km not your guess of 5,000)

 

Other vehicles and manufacturers are the same, where it's roughly every 6 months and around 12000 km.

It's vehicle dependent like I stated RTFM for the numbers... Also have you checked the thousands of models/year variants to confirm your claims? If not then how can you actually say they are the same? If the numbers are off it's because I don't have a car right now so everything is based on memory. Equally engine oil changing is also subjective to how one drives too not just range, someone who pushes their car harder than they should really (shouldn't be driving) change their oil more frequently than suggested.

 

6 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

12V batteries lead acid (which in a Tesla are being swapped for LiPo I believe) are less abused on EV (they don't have to power the starter motor)...so with the newer switch away from lead acid then the life-span of the 12V system batteries I'm betting will jump to 10 years.

Numbers are once again dependent on location and quality, that was my point. A good brand new battery lasts a few years here without it being plugged into the wall.

 

4 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I'm glad they didn't what Physics Girl did and mention Nikola as well...although it still seems as though they still use the quick "fueling" as a benefit, when it might actually mean a lot less.  Yes, BEV will always take longer to "refuel" as a conventional vehicle...but when the vehicles start reaching a point of being able to be driven for like 8 hours straight before needing a top-up then it means a lot less, as most places legally require the driver to take a break.  So if lets say they are required to have a 30 min break in an 8 hour drive. (which could add like 200 miles).  The time it takes makes less of a difference then.

 

Honestly, I would like to know the amount of affiliation with Toyota on this one.  It really seems as though it was another Toyota sponsored video (without saying it is).  If someone from LTT could clarify that would be great.  Like who fronted the bill to go to California, and drive around the Mirai; there is a link in the description and the way it was written it does seem as though Toyota is contributing to this video but it wasn't really fully disclosed.

The question for Nikola V Tesla is who will dominate the industry in terms of green driving assuming both claims are upheld. IMO unless they can drastically cut costs (without continuation of gov subsidiaries after the initial one set now) and increase infrastructure Tesla will win this one till one of the big names jumps in and makes a Semi counterpart for the long range model that is, there are 2 or 3 options for the low tier.

 

They don't need to sponsor them or affiliate with them in anyway, they can just invite them down (clearly Alex was in California, doubt that Semi would have been able to travel to Canada lol) to try out their demo car for media spend a week with it etc. They could offer to pay their travel/accommodation costs making it no different than producing a video at home but I wouldn't claim that would introduce a biased opinion (Alex did clearly say no to buying the Toy) as all they need to do is say here's your flight, here's your hotel location the car will be at the airport waiting for you, good day. The whole learn more about line doesn't really seem odd to me the lmg.gg url isn't something I would find weird it makes the description a little more tidy than putting the whole url, that said LMG could track how many clicks it gets, no differently than how Toy could as well (there are ways of getting the referral link). Even if Toy fronted all costs for the trip etc as I just mentioned for that stupid one liner I wouldn't look into it too much either as clearly their opinion of the car doesn't seem distorted. Also based on Alex's past videos I genuinely think he thinks hydrogen is somehow the future... He clearly has passion in this video unlike others he's hosted.

 

Oh the truck is also a gimmick imo too... Only 10? No signs of mass production? 🤔 Shell trying to grasp on the golden days of gouging clients? Confirmed 🤣

https://www.kenworth.com/about-us/news/port-of-los-angeles-rolls-out-hydrogen-fuel-cell-electric-freight-demonstration/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Back several years ago I heard about a concept of returning to the moon to mine helium 3 to bring back to earth and power Fusion reactors.  So of course my vision of the future with abundant and cheap electricity is to use hydrogen as a conduit for energy transport in vehicles.  I was unaware of all of the efficiency issues at the time but if fusion reactors take off that won't be a problem.  That's all pie in the sky though, if that's the way it works out I probably won't be alive long enough to see it but I like the concept.

 

Thanks for the video, it explained a lot that hasn't really been talked about in any of the videos I've seen.  I really liked the idea of using excess wind energy to create hydrogen, that's epic af.

Cans                                          Amps                                                               Speakers                                      Mic

Sennheiser 6xx                          Topping DX7 (dac/amp) (class D balanced)     Micca RB42                                  Antlion ModMic Uni

Beyerdynamic DT880-600         Emotiva A-100 (class A)                                                                                         Vmoda Boom Pro

Phillips Fidelio X3                      Nobsound Little Bear P7 (pure tube)                 Accessories                                Neego boom mic

Harmonicdyne Zeus                   Little dot MKII (pure tube)                                  Dekoni, Brainwavz and ZMF pads

Fostex T50RP                            Darkvoice 336SE (pure tube)                            Hart and Periapt cables

HiFi-man HE400i (2017)            Crown XLi1500 (power amp class A)                Yoga Blocks (headphone stands)

Blue Microphones Lola               Xduoo MT-602 (class A hybrid tube)

Koss KPH30iCL                          Schiit Fulla (class D dac/amp)                          Headset

AKG K-361-BT                                                                                                      Turtle Beach Stealth 700 v2 + adapter

Phillips shp9500

AKG K240 studio

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my take:

Batteries for short-haul
Hydrogen for long-haul

System Specs: Second-class potato, slightly mouldy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

It's vehicle dependent like I stated RTFM for the numbers... Also have you checked the thousands of models/year variants to confirm your claims? If not then how can you actually say they are the same? If the numbers are off it's because I don't have a car right now so everything is based on memory. Equally engine oil changing is also subjective to how one drives too not just range, someone who pushes their car harder than they should really (shouldn't be driving) change their oil more frequently than suggested.

 

Your response to someone who mentioned mileage, saying lol what and telling him to read a manual, when his numbers were more inline than your guessed numbers.  Literally Ford's website says 5,000-10,000 miles (which is 8,000-16000km) depend on the age and type of vehicle...and like the escape one, the 5000 miles was from pre-2008 numbers.  I know Toyota is similar (my brother's vehicle after the first 2 years recommends only a yearly oil change).

 

My point being though that you essentially told someone they were wrong (when their numbers were pretty correct) and gave wrong numbers...if you are going off memory, then maybe you shouldn't be telling people who were correct to read the service manual.

 

6 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

The question for Nikola V Tesla is who will dominate the industry in terms of green driving assuming both claims are upheld

No, Nikola really shouldn't be used in talking terms with Tesla.  Nikola as a company is to put it bluntly like scam of a company (making false claims about technology, products, patents and price points which they didn't have), which is why I found it funny one of the experts she talked to mentioned the company Nikola (as it really takes away from their ability to be called an expert when mentioning a company like Nikola, which literally lied about producing hydrogen at a cheap cost).

 

It's why I'm glad that there wasn't a mention of Nikola in the LTT video (compared to the other Toyota sponsored ones I've seen)

 

6 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

They could offer to pay their travel/accommodation costs making it no different than producing a video at home but I wouldn't claim that would introduce a biased opinion (Alex did clearly say no to buying the Toy) as all they need to do is say here's your flight, here's your hotel location the car will be at the airport waiting for you, good day

They actually used at least one of the graphics/talking points that Physics girl used, which is why it feels as though it was maybe partially funded by Toyota.  It just would be nice to know, like did Toyota reach out to them or did they reach out to Toyota regarding making a "more pro Toyota hydrogen vehicle".  It doesn't matter whether or not the opinion/conclusion was if you don't live in cali then no point in buying it...the disclosure of what Toyota provided them is still important.  Maybe @AlexTheGreatish could clarify regarding this; to help bring some transparency to what Toyota provided.  [Not trying to be uptight, but it does seem as though this had more of Toyota's hands in it to the point that they should be at least listed as a sponsor, or specified as a product review...could be wrong, clarification would be nice]

3735928559 - Beware of the dead beef

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, whm1974 said:

How is the Hydrogen produced? The US might be better off switching over to a Bio or Green form of gasoline.

Neither of these are good enough. The best solution, whether it be emissions, price, efficiency or other, is simply battery electric.  

 

4 hours ago, YellowJersey said:

Here's my take:

Batteries for short-haul
Hydrogen for long-haul

Unfortunately for hydrogen, batteries will remain cheaper and better. Range wise, battery technology is improving drastically, and remember that you won't be driving unlimited distances without a rest. Even if hydrogen ends up having a slight edge on range, it will still be much more expensive as it is far less efficient. Hydrogen vehicles also require much more maintenance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×