Prop Safety on Movie Sets?

[whm1974]

So reading this about Actor Alec Baldwin shooting cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, 42  and film’s director, Joel Souza, 48, with Prop Gun that had a projectile in it.

 

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-21/woman-fatally-shot-by-prop-firearm-on-a-new-mexico-movie-set

 

Now not withstanding that haven't been handling guns for nearly ~10 years, but back when I did... I always checked if if I pick one up or had one handed to me. But I was under the impression that Prop Guns were not able to chambered Firearm Ammunition at all? Granted I never owned or handle them before.

 

This Topic is more about Prop Safety on Sets then Firearms per se.

[LWM723]

Apparently they use real guns in the states, go figure.

[whm1974]

10 minutes ago, LWM723 said:

Apparently they use real guns in the states, go figure.

They do things differently in Canada and other Nations?

[LWM723]

In Canada they use real guns rendered permanently unfirable by a gunsmith. The barrel, bolt, firing pin are welded and can never be undone.

[whm1974]

2 hours ago, LWM723 said:

In Canada they use real guns rendered permanently unfirable by a gunsmith. The barrel, bolt, firing pin are welded and can never be undone.

What about blank firing guns?

[LWM723]

Unless things have changed even blank guns are not allowed.

[tikker]

9 hours ago, whm1974 said:

But I was under the impression that Prop Guns were not able to chambered Firearm Ammunition at all? Granted I never owned or handle them before.

A "prop" is short for property: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatrical_property It simply refers to an object that is used in the movie and can thus absolutely be a real gun.

9 hours ago, Caroline said:

I thought they used plastic guns for movies and then added the sounds and visuals after filming

Real guns are preferrable to get the details like recoil right. Even with blanks, as you say, you should still treat it as a loaded gun, as they aren't a go-nuts freecard.

[Arika]

5 hours ago, whm1974 said:

What about blank firing guns?

Blanks aren't necessarily 100% safe.

 

though it's weird the article is quite contradictory

Quote

A spokesperson for Baldwin said there was an accident on the set involving the misfire of a prop gun with blanks.

Quote

In an email to its members, Local 44 of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, a union that represents prop makers, said the shot that killed Hutchins and injured director Joel Souza on Thursday was “a live single round,”

Quote

“According to investigators, it appears that the scene being filmed involved the use of a prop firearm when it was discharged,” said Sheriff’s Office spokesman Juan Rios. “Detectives are investigating how and what type of projectile was discharged.”

 

[JZStudios]

14 hours ago, Caroline said:

I thought they used plastic guns for movies and then added the sounds and visuals after filming, or blank cartridges.

 

It's good to always treat every gun like it's loaded.

No, they'll use modified real guns. They'll remove the firing pin so they can't shoot or otherwise mod them so they can only shoot smaller blanks, which still have a wad. If they're pistol whipping someone it can be a foam or rubber all painted up.

 

But yeah.

5 hours ago, tikker said:

Real guns are preferrable to get the details like recoil right. Even with blanks, as you say, you should still treat it as a loaded gun, as they aren't a go-nuts freecard.

Blanks provide the recoil, and the wads aren't dangerous past a couple feet. I forget who, but back in the day some dumb actor or musician thought it would be cool to shoot himself with a blank at a party. Pretty sure that ended the party right quick. It's very uncommon to have real live guns on set, much less actors shooting them. John Wick and similar will have actors train on firing ranges for how to use it, but not in the filming. Guess Baldwin skipped that bit.

 

5 hours ago, Arika S said:

though it's weird the article is quite contradictory

Blanks shoot small paper or plastic wads, if they aren't just crimped charges. It was definitely a live round, it went through one person and lodged in another. A blank can't do that. Though I am curious what distance before blanks become non-lethal.

[Montana One-Six]

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable pointing a real gun at someone or a direction that isn't safe even if it is a movie set and supposedly blank rounds. As that goes against a few rules of gun safety, "don't point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy" and "always treat guns as if they are loaded". Which in my opinion bb guns or de-milled guns that physically cannot shoot real ammunition would be my preferred choice especially these days where you can do pretty much anything with after-effects.

 

7 hours ago, tikker said:

Real guns are preferrable to get the details like recoil right.

I beg to differ as everyone reacts different to recoil and I don't think the you would notice it watching a movie. Plus the amount of shit you see in movies especially when it comes to guns, recoil would be the last thing you would notice to be out of place especially if it is a normal pistol (9mm, .45, .40) or rifle (5.56, 7.62x51, 7.62x39) and nothing too overpowered. In all honesty I often think they don't actually try to make things look right, if they actually do they often do a terrible job.

In John Wick they use BB guns which you can tell at some parts in the movie but the overall gun play is a lot better than in many other films.

[JZStudios]

12 minutes ago, Montana16 said:

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable pointing a real gun at someone or a direction that isn't safe even if it is a movie set and supposedly blank rounds. As that goes against a few rules of gun safety,

Yes, but we're also talking an actor here, and a vehemently anti-gun actor who thinks guns are evil.

 

[Avocado Diaboli]

7 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Yes, but we're also talking an actor here, and a vehemently anti-gun actor who thinks guns are evil.

What exactly does his anti-gun stance have to do with the accident?

[tikker]

18 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Blanks provide the recoil, and the wads aren't dangerous past a couple feet. I forget who, but back in the day some dumb actor or musician thought it would be cool to shoot himself with a blank at a party. Pretty sure that ended the party right quick. It's very uncommon to have real live guns on set, much less actors shooting them. John Wick and similar will have actors train on firing ranges for how to use it, but not in the filming. Guess Baldwin skipped that bit.

That's what I meant. You fire a blank to get the flash and recoil, but not the actual bullet. It can still be a real gun firing a blank, or apparently specially designed blank-firing guns (which would appear to not have been the case here). Multiple things seem to have gone wrong here from what I read, an important one being unauthorised people handling the prop and him being handed the gun without involvement from the armorer, who alledgedly also alledgedly raised concerns multiple times about "accidental" discharged from guns on the set.

18 minutes ago, Montana16 said:

I beg to differ as everyone reacts different to recoil and I don't think the you would notice it watching a movie. Plus the amount of shit you see in movies especially when it comes to guns, recoil would be the last thing you would notice to be out of place especially if it is a normal pistol (9mm, .45, .40) or rifle (5.56, 7.62x54, 7.62x39) and nothing too overpowered. In all honesty I often think they don't actually try to make things look right, if they actually do they often do a terrible job.

In John Wick they use BB guns which you can tell at some parts in the movie but the overall gun play is a lot better than in many other films.

Everyone reacting differently to recoil would a point of using blanks instead of acting. That, and maybe save the effort of CGI-ing in muzzle flash. In high-paced action scenes it's not really noticeable, but firing without seeing the gun or actor move a millimetre can feel odd nowadays

[Montana One-Six]

1 hour ago, tikker said:

Everyone reacting differently to recoil would a point of using blanks instead of acting. That, and maybe save the effort of CGI-ing in muzzle flash. In high-paced action scenes it's not really noticeable, but firing without seeing the gun or actor move a millimetre can feel odd nowadays

The recoil shooting blanks is significantly less than shooting real ammunition, so I don't see the point in the recoil thing. Even shooting real ammunition the recoil you see on another person that is trained and knows how to keep the gun on target is very very minor when shooting 5.56 or 9mm (even with .45 or 7.62) for example and even someone who is shooting for the first time doesn't move a lot when shooting one of those. Which is what I meant with everyone reacts differently (bad wording on my part), the way you react depends only on two factors the amount of training a person has and the gun (and round) that is fired. So it shouldn't be that obvious in films either way. Of course it all depends on the character in the film, if it is a character that shoots for the first time recoil should be more visible than if the character is a soldier.

 

I can see that not having to do CGI is probably a valid reason especially for films that have a lower budget. Plus the effects are probably going to look more natural with blanks.

But in the end I still don't see why you would use a gun that can shoot real and blank ammunition. Just use a gun that can only fire blanks.

 

One thing I still have a hard time finding a reason for is why was there real ammunition on set anyway?

[Spotty]

3 minutes ago, Montana16 said:

One thing I still have a hard time finding a reason for is why was there real ammunition on set anyway?

Paparazzi /s

 

Logicaldrm shared this video. This is from a couple of years ago and is what was used in the movie Avatar. Pretty interesting and hopefully the industry moves more towards things like this and away from blanks.

https://www.tested.com/premium/593807-adam-savage-tests-weta-workshops-machine-gun-props/

Tldw: It's essentially a hollowed out gun with a jigsaw power tool motor with a weight to give recoil and an LED on the end of the barrel that flashes when fired to give a reference to sync to for adding muzzle flash in post and to provide lighting on the environment to stimulate the muzzle flash. Even has cartridge ejection.

[JZStudios]

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

What exactly does his anti-gun stance have to do with the accident?

Highly unlikely he knows anything about them, as per usual with most people that are against guns.

 

16 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Paparazzi /s

 

Logicaldrm shared this video. This is from a couple of years ago and is what was used in the movie Avatar. Pretty interesting and hopefully the industry moves more towards things like this and away from blanks.

https://www.tested.com/premium/593807-adam-savage-tests-weta-workshops-machine-gun-props/

Tldw: It's essentially a hollowed out gun with a jigsaw power tool motor with a weight to give recoil and an LED on the end of the barrel that flashes when fired to give a reference to sync to for adding muzzle flash in post and to provide lighting on the environment to stimulate the muzzle flash. Even has cartridge ejection.

They could also just use co2 airsoft.

[Avocado Diaboli]

12 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Highly unlikely he knows anything about them, as per usual with most people that are against guns.

Those are just baseless conjectures all around. Never mind that it's entirely besides the point, since the accident didn't happen at a firing range but during a film shoot.

[tikker]

45 minutes ago, Montana16 said:

I can see that not having to do CGI is probably a valid reason especially for films that have a lower budget. Plus the effects are probably going to look more natural with blanks.

But in the end I still don't see why you would use a gun that can shoot real and blank ammunition. Just use a gun that can only fire blanks.

 

One thing I still have a hard time finding a reason for is why was there real ammunition on set anyway?

I think this is main question about this entire case . I forgot if this was for that other famous movie case which name escapes me at the moment or this one, but one of the things I read is that there potentially was a bullet or something in the chamber/barrel for close-up purposes. The gun wasn't cleared before handing it to him then when the trigger was pulled that bullet was sent flying.

33 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Paparazzi /s

 

Logicaldrm shared this video. This is from a couple of years ago and is what was used in the movie Avatar. Pretty interesting and hopefully the industry moves more towards things like this and away from blanks.

https://www.tested.com/premium/593807-adam-savage-tests-weta-workshops-machine-gun-props/

Tldw: It's essentially a hollowed out gun with a jigsaw power tool motor with a weight to give recoil and an LED on the end of the barrel that flashes when fired to give a reference to sync to for adding muzzle flash in post and to provide lighting on the environment to stimulate the muzzle flash. Even has cartridge ejection.

For some reason my mind went to The Last Air Bender Avatar and I was like why do they need guns... Then I remembered the other Avatar movie.

[JZStudios]

18 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Those are just baseless conjectures all around. Never mind that it's entirely besides the point, since the accident didn't happen at a firing range but during a film shoot.

What does not being at a firing range have to do with it? And it's not baseless conjecture. Baldwin knows nothing about guns.

[Avocado Diaboli]

5 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

What does not being at a firing range have to do with it? And it's not baseless conjecture. Baldwin knows nothing about guns.

Have you asked him about it? Or did he admit to knowing nothing about them? If not, it's conjecture. And the reason why it's besides the point is that an actor has no rational reason to assume that they're being given a loaded firearm when they're otherwise surrounded by purpose built scenery and props, so you can hardly wind him a noose about him not following proper gun handling protocol, regardless of his political stance on guns. You'd also not come down in him like this if he were to break a real bottle over someone's head instead of a breakaway bottle made of sugar.

 

This is just fodder for pro-gun people to make fun of his political stance vis-à-vis this accident. And honestly, I find it kinda tasteless to misappropriate a tragic accidental fatal shooting in such a context. 

[Beerzerker]

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

1: This is just fodder for pro-gun people to make fun of his political stance vis-à-vis this accident and honestly....

2: I find it kinda tasteless to misappropriate a tragic accidental fatal shooting in such a context. 

1: Hold on there - Don't go generalizing EVERYONE that's pro-gun (Choice) as being that way.
I am and I'm not doing that.
What happened is a tragedy and was due to human error, had nothing to do with anyone's politics. 

2: I may not be a fan of Baldwin or like how he is but at the same time I don't see him just picking up a gun and shooting someone with it either.
You are correct in that what happened should not be cheapened into a downward spiral of political shit and blame spewing - Lives were lost or affected and that's the unfortunate sum of it.

It should not be made into anything else but what it is, an unfortunate occurence with a tragic consequence.
We would do well to respect that.
 

[JZStudios]

4 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Have you asked him about it? Or did he admit to knowing nothing about them? If not, it's conjecture. And the reason why it's besides the point is that an actor has no rational reason to assume that they're being given a loaded firearm when they're otherwise surrounded by purpose built scenery and props, so you can hardly wind him a noose about him not following proper gun handling protocol, regardless of his political stance on guns. You'd also not come down in him like this if he were to break a real bottle over someone's head instead of a breakaway bottle made of sugar.

 

This is just fodder for pro-gun people to make fun of his political stance vis-à-vis this accident. And honestly, I find it kinda tasteless to misappropriate a tragic accidental fatal shooting in such a context. 

Rule #1 of ANY firearm. It's ALWAYS loaded and it WILL kill anything you point it at. You're making conjecture to argue for no reason. Children with Nerf and Airsoft understand this rule. The only people that don't, know nothing about guns. Also, 99.9% of people that are anti-gun, have never been around one, much less shot one, and even less been trained on one.

And yes, I 100% would come down on him for using a real bottle. You clearly didn't watch the video I posted. These prop makers take exceptional care with their equipment to make sure no one gets hurt. The prop guy isn't handing him a real bottle and telling him it's fake. He also shouldn't pick up random things and assume they're fake. That's toddler behavior.

 

It's pretty ironic though, you gotta admit. He was pretty consistent about giving people shit for shootings, thus we need gun regulation, so I hope you don't defend that behavior.

[LWM723]

Why did he shoot at a set employee? Obviously, they weren't filming at the time or he would have been shooting at an actor.

[trag1c]

27 minutes ago, LWM723 said:

Why did he shoot at a set employee? Obviously, they weren't filming at the time or he would have been shooting at an actor.

I almost wonder if it was a POV like shot where he was shooting at the camera and the lady was behind the camera.

[Rauten]

On 10/24/2021 at 4:44 AM, whm1974 said:

They do things differently in Canada and other Nations?

From what I've learned due to this tragedy, here in Spain they have to use modified guns, by law.

Apparently prop guns here must use a different caliber than real guns, which means that fake/blank/prop/whatever ammo they use on set must also be in this modified caliber. 

That eliminates the chance of using a prop gun with live ammo, it just won't work.