New GA106-302 RTX 3060 Revision coming with Hardware Based Mining Limiter coming in May, Possibly coming to the rest of RTX 30 series

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

The only thing he achieved with his comment is to end up on my ignore list.....

I don’t keep one of those.  Or rather I save it for botspam.  Being on an ignore list can have weird uses if one knows one is on one depending on how they’re implemented.  I avoid them except in really extreme circumstances

Edited April 19, 2021 by Bombastinator

[Morgan Everett]

7 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

For the waste it is yeah the return is meager. Also yeah its going to matter with the fans running 24/7 no matter if it isn't super high rpm. You for sure are going to have the fans die alot earlier than if you weren't running it 24/7. 

I'm much more likely to have sold the GPU before the fans 'die', particularly in view of the fact that I'm not running them at full pelt. And, again, if you're wealthy enough to find the returns meagre, such that it's a 'waste', that's fine: I'm not so blessed!

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think Nvidia really does want to do this considering they're investing into marketing and limiting their cards.

Just because a company is doing something doesn't actually mean they want to. That's how public pressure works, not doing something is being seen as more damaging to the business than to carry on operating how they want to.

 

6 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Well when cards go out stock instantly I can guess miners are using bots to buy large quantities of cards, when Nvidia added the mining limiter to the 3060 , at least cards were in stock for a few seconds instead of not being in stock at all.

Well couple of things here, miners and scalpers are different issues and different people. Miners aren't scalping their cards, at least not until they have gotten ROI then want to basically double for nothing. And calling that scalping is actually not correct term, they are simply selling their card used at current market price.

 

I see this see being conflated a lot, miners v scalpers. Two different issues and discussion.

 

As to stock, RTX 3060 uses a smaller GPU die and less/cheaper memory and smaller VRM designs. It's simply easier to produce more RTX 3060 graphic cards than it is for RTX 3080 graphics cards so of course there is going to be better stock and of course they won't sell out as fast.

 

RTX 3060 still make actually good profit mining, miners still want to buy them. All that is happening is working your way down the list of what is in stock and that will get purchased. A miner limit will do nothing unless it limits such that it's negative return.

 

6 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

OEM's using AMD cpu's is likely only a fraction of the market I still see way more OEM desktops with Intel cpu's than AMD, maybe gaming prebuilts though.

No they are not a fraction, not by a long shot. Large OEMs like these sell hundreds of millions of computers each year (talking total, so hundred million each). A lot of the Elite series business computers, both desktop and laptop, have transitioned to AMD.

 

Even when it's one of these OEM computers that has a lower end GPU that isn't on the TSMC 7nm or Samsung 8nm process the cards still require GDDR5/6 memory chips and voltage controllers and MOSFETs, all things in short supply.

 

The computer manufacturing industry is under huge pressure from all areas and angles, when there is a 60% increase in volume even in just one thing that is even slightly significant to begin with it has a huge impact. However it wasn't just one thing, there were huge demand increases for almost everything in every way.

 

6 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I've seen mentions of Nvidia making more GPU's than previous series yet they aren't available anywhere and again they're all out stock instantly, so I think mining could be a significant impact only made worse by chip shortages.

Yes because demand is still far above production. This isn't hard to figure out.

 

But you only think miners are having a significant impact, where is you evidence to support your argument? Gut feel does not counter that actual data we have that shows computers sales and computer parts demand is exceedingly high, way above regular growth which would always cause a problem with supply.

 

Miners are buying cards obviously but you don't know if they represent 1% of total sales per month or 10% or 50%. If it's 1% or even 10% all this yelling is irrelevant because removing that portion will actually do very little. Other buyers will just take their place and it'll still be out of stock and there will still be a huge portion that have essentially given up trying. The pool of people that want PC parts is huge and not all of them are even active in the market, myself included. I will buy only once the prices are not ridiculous or I can source at reasonable pricing.

 

6 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

stop the mining CMP crap and start making RTX 20 series cards again

The CMP cards are specifically only using rejected GPU dies, from Nvidia perspective it has no impact on their GPU die product and availability. These cards can only affect component supply, like memory modules etc which yes are in well over demand.

 

 

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, Kisai said:

Keep saying "this will never work" while ignoring the nvlink part of the solution.

Because it doesn't matter. GPU passed through to a VM sitting in an actual x16 slot electrically and data wise because it's behind a PLX chip means what you said won't work.

 

I'm not ignoring anything, all the things you proposed and keep trying simply will not work. All of them can be bypassed or make absolutely zero sense and would never get done. There is zero way, NOT EVER, NOT HAPPENING, that Nvidia will limit CUDA or DirectCompute capabilities of Geforce cards in any way ever. Toss any such proposals out it's not viable. Why? Because games literally use these, other applications literally use these. Do you want to play any recent games? Then you need CUDA and DirectCompute end of story.

 

But mining specific ones can be bypass as I've explained. Nvidia has thought very long and hard about a method that even has a remote chance of working and that is via detection of the workload which even though could be bypassed is actually harder than what you've suggested.

 

6 hours ago, Kisai said:

that it doesn't power on when it's not in the cpu-connected slot at x16

So then no high end X570 or Z series motherboard can support Nvidia GPUs then because they all (or practically all) have PCIe switch chips on the x16 slot that sits between the CPU. Did you not read what I said about this?

 

To to make it exceedingly clear a PCIe switch chip is between the GPU and the CPU for a huge range of motherboard models on the market, many of these being of the most popular ones.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, Kisai said:

The point is, again, nvidia has incentives to protect it's data center solutions to make it so GEFORCE cards can't be used in high density deployments over their more expensive solutions. Removing the nvlink from the GEFORCE card should have been a sign that no additional GPU's will be supported to run together.

You have no idea what you are talking about. First Nvidia removed SLI from Geforce graphics cards not NVLink, NVLink that is on Geforce cards (only since RTX 20 series) is not the same as NVLink on Quadro's or Tesla's both physically and protocol support wise.

 

The removal of SLI support in general has nothing to do with datacenter at all.

 

The main thing that stops Geforce cards being used in more dense applications in the datacenter is where the PCIe power connectors are and the non standard true full height full length dual slot PCIe dimensions. Other than Nvidia reference cooler designs no Geforce cards actually fit in a standard 2U server properly, and Nvidia doesn't locate the power connections in a place on the reference design that would allow you to actually cable it in a 2U server.

 

You're well off track if you think SLI going by the way side has anything to do with the datacenter market.

[jagdtigger]

7 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I don’t keep one of those.  Or rather I save it for botspam.  Being on an ignore list can have weird uses if one knows one is on one depending on how they’re implemented.  I avoid them except in really extreme circumstances

Hey if i wouldnt get booted out for my principles id rather tell him what i think about his post, but sadly i cant because of forum rules (cant call them what they are even if they are a textbook example of a words definition). So i skip that part and just ignore them, dont see them and dont hear them... (Same thing happens IRL after i told them my opnion, i have a pretty long tolerance but its not endless.)

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

Hey if i wouldnt get booted out for my principles id rather tell him what i think about his post, but sadly i cant because of forum rules (cant call them what they are even if they are a textbook example of a words definition). So i skip that part and just ignore them, dont see them and dont hear them...

Works for some.  I don’t know how it’s implemented in this instance so I don’t use it. 

[Bitter]

So when supply is fine and mining isn't crazy, are new cards going to still have this limiter?

[JediFragger]

1 hour ago, Bitter said:

So when supply is fine and mining isn't crazy, are new cards going to still have this limiter?

I expect yes, as it feels like Nvidia intend to keep their mining lineup for the long term (else why even launch it?).

[Brooksie359]

23 hours ago, Bitter said:

You're assuming everyone has the time for a second job, what about family, kids, commuting time, etc. Mining rig is making money while I'm driving to work, walking the dogs, making dinner, sleeping, pooping, showering, etc. Can't work a second job while I'm doing those things.

Again it doesn't take alot of time to make more than what you would with mining. At that point if you don't have time for even that then you have other problems other than money. Its simply a waste of energy and harmful for mining to even be a thing. 

[Kisai]

5 hours ago, Bitter said:

So when supply is fine and mining isn't crazy, are new cards going to still have this limiter?

I'd expect all 30xx cards and future 40xx, etc, to likely have limiters of some kind to make GPU's inefficient at mining. Presently only 4GB+ cards are efficient at it, so that leaves the vast majority of cards that are only 1080p cards from being suitable. Like again, any countermeasures deployed now will have consequences later. Let's assume that the "memory loading"  (which is what the current countermeasures are) is the only trick in the book, what happens when texture sizes get to 4GB? What about ML loads that are 8, 10 and 12GB right now?

 

Let's just assume nvidia isn't stupid and that the limiter's can only be bypassed by if the card is running in-spec (PCIe 4 x16, Displayport populated with G-sync/FreeSync monitor supporting HDCP) in the first place. People who aren't building multi-gpu mining rigs are still affected by the limiter if they run the card out of spec (eg overclocking) or use their home gaming pc for business work that just suddenly runs worse than a Quadro on the same load with the same chip. 

 

I have a hard time believing the limiter will be just for the x60 class parts that are more typical of cheap prebuilds. They might be building a limiter in permanently, turned on by default, that is only turned off when the right OS and Driver version is used, so heading off any potential for a new cryptocurrency finding a way to work around it by using older drivers on newer hardware.

 

That said, again, if they are doing this just to sell cryptomining cards, the most obvious thing will be the same trick used to turn geforce cards into quadro cards and vice versa will be used to turn geforce cards into mining cards, because the hardware is effectively still the same. Like nvidia COULD make quadro's require HBM ECC memory and check for that, preventing the geforce/quadro drivers from recognizing a card that the memory type mismatches. But I'd argue instead that the amount of people who tamper with the cards aren't that high, and the bigger risk is remarking (counterfeiting) higher margin brands using lower margin cards (eg selling modified geforce cards as quadro's, selling mining cards as geforce cards) and sold on alibaba/ebay.

 

 

[Brooksie359]

21 hours ago, Moonzy said:

Ok, you do you, as waste or not is truly subjective

Personally I feel like traveling to office is more wasteful because you're literally moving tons of mass around, and if you do the math its actually using a lot of energy

 

Yes, you are absolutely right that it drops the hashrate when I'm using the PC

My PC is to serve me first, mining second

Even if it doesn't make $7 a day, or ROI in one year instead of 6 months, it's still better than not seeing a single cent that I spent on it

 

"oh I'm not making as much as I could, let's not make any money at all then"

It's such a weird mindset...?

 

Edit: just to clarify, if you don't like mining, you don't have to mine, it's your hardware so you do you, it's not stupid to do (or not do) whatever you want with your hardware

World is a complicated place with all sorts of people

But you see the point there though is that mass is being moved. Something is being accomplished. Mining does literally nothing. You could get rid of cryptocurrency tomorrow and it wouldn't matter as it doesn't serve any real purpose that isn't already served by other things. It doesn't do what it set out to do so really its a failed product that people still waste vast amounts of energy feeding. And why? All in the name of profit because the environment doesn't matter and what purpose it serves doesn't matter so long as I get a couple bucks a day to waste electricity. 

[Brooksie359]

21 hours ago, Moonzy said:

If I'm making $100 a month from mining, I think I can buy all the noctua I want to strap on my gpus when their fan break down? e.e

Yeah some people don't want to jerryrig a fan onto our gpu. Also if the fan dies while its mining and you aren't there it would be a big problem. 

[IkeaGnome]

Just now, Brooksie359 said:

Mining does literally nothing.

Oh...

Spoiler

No gold for you then 

/s

Just because it's purpose doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter to anyone else. 

That's like me saying bras are pointless. Making them is a waste of energy.

[Fnige]

22 hours ago, Kisai said:

The point is, again, nvidia has incentives to protect it's data center solutions to make it so GEFORCE cards can't be used in high density deployments over their more expensive solutions

Could they be using the same reasoning as this for their CMP line? 

[Brooksie359]

1 minute ago, IkeaGnome said:

Oh...

  Hide contents

No gold for you then 

/s

Just because it's purpose doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter to anyone else. 

That's like me saying bras are pointless. Making them is a waste of energy.

In what world does that make any sense at all? There is a clear and cut purpose for a bra while mining there is legitimately none that gets accomplished. If anything mining is like a condom with a hole in it. Yeah it has a purpose but it didn't accomplishe it at which point its useless. Cryptocurrency can't be used as a currency at which point its purpose of having a decentralized currency is not accomplished. Yet people are spending massive amounts of energy into it simply because now it's a glorified stock and it makes them a small amount of cash. How about we just stop wasting energy resources on a failed project and use it for something actually useful. 

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, Brooksie359 said:

How about we just stop wasting energy resources on a failed project and use it for something actually useful. 

If crypto has failed then why is it still around?
PayPal allows you to buy/sell a few cryptocurrencies, large companies allow you to buy things with it, etc.

Unless I'm missing something major, that's not evidence of a "failed project".

[Blademaster91]

12 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Yeah some people don't want to jerryrig a fan onto our gpu. Also if the fan dies while its mining and you aren't there it would be a big problem. 

If the fan dies you can just replace it with one off ebay, although most people wouldn't want to risk breaking their GPU by taking it apart, and I've seen threads of people not able to RMA their card because the AIB doesn't have any extra cards, which doesn't seem right at all if every last card is getting sold to miners. But oh well the whole GPU market sucks, and who knows when it'll get any better because mining nerfs aren't going to fix anything.

GN also did a video that mining cables and risers can be low quality to the point of starting a house fire, so I definitely wouldn't trust not being there while a bunch of GPUs are going full load.

[IkeaGnome]

3 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

In what world does that make any sense at all? There is a clear and cut purpose for a bra while mining there is legitimately none that gets accomplished. If anything mining is like a condom with a hole in it. Yeah it has a purpose but it didn't accomplishe it at which point its useless. Cryptocurrency can't be used as a currency at which point its purpose of having a decentralized currency is not accomplished. Yet people are spending massive amounts of energy into it simply because now it's a glorified stock and it makes them a small amount of cash. How about we just stop wasting energy resources on a failed project and use it for something actually useful. 

Ah, so we're closer to the reasoning of game consoles.

https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/video-game-consoles-IB.pdf

I don't play them. Let's stop making them.

[miagisan]

As much as I think crypto is a useless drain on our power grid, and the resources used for imaginary electronic money made could be better served doing something useful like f@h or seti and such, I fear this would cause more issues than what it is meant for.   

[Bitter]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

Again it doesn't take alot of time to make more than what you would with mining. At that point if you don't have time for even that then you have other problems other than money. Its simply a waste of energy and harmful for mining to even be a thing. 

I would have to find a job, interview, possibly drug test, follow up interview likely, then also commute to that job in addition to my current 40hr a week job AND find a job that would be ok with non 9 to 5 hours and schedule me around my current 9 to 5 job AND still have time for family and life. Or I could put a computer in the basement corner and pay an extra $20 a month in electric which is probably a lot less than gas commuting to the second job. You ever had two jobs at once before? It's not fun.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, IkeaGnome said:

Ah, so we're closer to the reasoning of game consoles.

https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/video-game-consoles-IB.pdf

I don't play them. Let's stop making them.

Meanwhilw crypto uses as much as country.....

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Oh...

  Reveal hidden contents

No gold for you then 

/s

Just because it's purpose doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter to anyone else. 

That's like me saying bras are pointless. Making them is a waste of energy.

There are larger women who would disagree emphatically with this.  Might work for b cup or smaller though. 

[Moonzy]

3 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

You could get rid of cryptocurrency tomorrow and it wouldn't matter as it doesn't serve any real purpose that isn't already served by other things.

I mean, I've said it before and I'll say it again

Humans can just die right this instant and Earth will still revolve around the sun just fine

In the grand scale of things, nothing human does matters

 

Now to be more realistic, crypto already established its own ecosystem, with mining farms to investors, removing it would mean removing billion, or trillions, of dollars worth of assets and also removing thousands of jobs

I'm no economist, but this should affect things quite a bit, crypto mining operations also pays taxes so it might also affect a country's GDP too

 

3 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Yeah some people don't want to jerryrig a fan onto our gpu. Also if the fan dies while its mining and you aren't there it would be a big problem. 

And that's fine, you do you

 

A computer will shut itself off in the event of overheating, whether by mining or by gaming, when the fan dies.

 

I just enjoy the fact that my computer pays for it's own upgrade, I can literally buy a new GPU every half a year, free of charge, stay updated and be more efficient at mining, it's a positive feedback loop, and from my experience, GPU fans don't die within a year of usage like that

 

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Cryptocurrency can't be used as a currency at which point its purpose of having a decentralized currency is not accomplished.

I would say it's still growing, right now it functions more as a stock than currency, but recently more and more companies start accepting it

 

Whether the company hold onto the coin or convert it to fiat, that's another story

If the company hold onto crypto: they're betting that crypto will have value in the future

If the company convert it to fiat right when they receive it: this would mean that even if a company doesn't believe in it, they still accept it as a currency, at the very least

 

Though I don't see why a company would sell bitcoin right as they receive it, but still want to accept it as a payment method, because why not just accept fiat only, and don't have to implement crypto, saving headaches

So I would think most companies that accept BTC as payment would be holding onto the majority of it (?)

[Brooksie359]

On 4/20/2021 at 3:37 AM, FakeKGB said:

If crypto has failed then why is it still around?
PayPal allows you to buy/sell a few cryptocurrencies, large companies allow you to buy things with it, etc.

Unless I'm missing something major, that's not evidence of a "failed project".

Its not able to be used as a currency simply by virtue of it being volatile. It will never be actually widely accepted as a currency like fait currency is so yeah its a failed experiment. The fact that you can use it at a select few places sorta reinforces that fact. Cryptocurrency has been around for over a decade and that is all it has to show for itself. I'm sorry but the amount of energy being wasted every year on Cryptocurrency mining is not worth continuing this failed experiment. 

 

On 4/20/2021 at 3:39 AM, IkeaGnome said:

Ah, so we're closer to the reasoning of game consoles.

https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/video-game-consoles-IB.pdf

I don't play them. Let's stop making them.

Nope that is actually doing something. Its providing entertainment to alot of people. Cryptocurrency does legit nothing and as people have said its passive so it can just sit there and continue to waste energy 24/7 because it can. 

 

On 4/20/2021 at 5:16 AM, Bitter said:

I would have to find a job, interview, possibly drug test, follow up interview likely, then also commute to that job in addition to my current 40hr a week job AND find a job that would be ok with non 9 to 5 hours and schedule me around my current 9 to 5 job AND still have time for family and life. Or I could put a computer in the basement corner and pay an extra $20 a month in electric which is probably a lot less than gas commuting to the second job. You ever had two jobs at once before? It's not fun.

Are you crazy? Just do something like door dash or Uber on the side. I would say Uber for sure if it was before the pandemic but not alot of people are using taxi services right now tbh. That is how you make good side money because you can do it whenever and for how long you want. You decide your own hours. Also you don't need to do interviews and whatnot. I have a friend who did that and he made some serious cash simply do it a couple hours over the weekends and mind you he is a QA engineer at a biomedical device company making alot of money already and he said it was pretty significant.