UPDATE: NVIDIA backtracks - Hardware Unboxed blacklisted from receiving GeForce FE review samples over “focus on rasterization over ray-tracing”

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, fred82 said:

I Totally agree with Linus

I have now a even worst opinion about Nvidia. 

But ... hopefully they change their mind soon

Apparently they did.

[Miket482000]

To late!  They have made a Massive misstep!  It will take a very long time of abject bowing and scraping from them for a long time to come before they will ever be able to repair the damage that they have done to their Credibility, reputation, and customer comfort that they are not being shady in some fashion!

11 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

Apparently they did.

 

[WhitetailAni]

You can fill up a hole, but it will never be the same as when you had never dug it.

[Gamer Schnitzel]

37 minutes ago, Miket482000 said:

To late!  They have made a Massive misstep!  It will take a very long time of abject bowing and scraping from them for a long time to come before they will ever be able to repair the damage that they have done to their Credibility, reputation, and customer comfort that they are not being shady in some fashion!

 

You're joking.. right? If you take all the viewers of those reviewers together it is literally just a couple of % of their total GPU sales. Most people could not care less how they treat people on YT and when I say most I mean 99%. Do you know how many people there are who just play games and have never seen a tech video? And when they wanna buy something they just go to the store and buy the most expensive item? All reviewers could make a video to say that they hate Nvidia and ask their viewers to never buy Nvidia again and that would literally not even be 10% of their profits and let's be honest, nobody would listen to them. People care about themselves much more than some random internet guy. All you guys are doing is trying to form a mob where you can validate each other's opinion for a while and in a couple of days you all forgot and continue fangirling Nvidia. This is far from the first time a company messed up and people forgot. Who here remembers the MSI scalping? Remember how furious everyone was? This entire thing is pointless. I keep getting quoted to say that the day 1 video is a large chunk of the money but... why should Nvidia care..? Nvidia is not that channel's mommy. It's not their duty to ensure they can make money making videos on YT. If they can't be bothered sending a guy a card then they don't have to. At the end of the day you are all their slaves, obsessed with their junk. How many people who are "angry" here went out of their way to laugh at AMD in the past? It's just a bunch of little irrelevant people bickering.

[Miket482000]

2 minutes ago, Gamer Schnitzel said:

You're joking.. right? If you take all the viewers of those reviewers together it is literally just a couple of % of their total GPU sales. Most people could not care less how they treat people on YT and when I say most I mean 99%. Do you know how many people there are who just play games and have never seen a tech video? And when they wanna buy something they just go to the store and buy the most expensive item? All reviewers could make a video to say that they hate Nvidia and ask their viewers to never buy Nvidia again and that would literally not even be 10% of their profits and let's be honest, nobody would listen to them. People care about themselves much more than some random internet guy. All you guys are doing is trying to form a mob where you can validate each other's opinion for a while and in a couple of days you all forgot and continue fangirling Nvidia. This is far from the first time a company messed up and people forgot. Who here remembers the MSI scalping? Remember how furious everyone was? This entire thing is pointless. I keep getting quoted to say that the day 1 video is a large chunk of the money but... why should Nvidia care..? Nvidia is not that channel's mommy. It's not their duty to ensure they can make money making videos on YT. If they can't be bothered sending a guy a card then they don't have to. At the end of the day you are all their slaves, obsessed with their junk. How many people who are "angry" here went out of their way to laugh at AMD in the past? It's just a bunch of little irrelevant people bickering.

I would agree to an extent, but word gets around in other ways than watching a review video. I also believer that you underestimate the number of people that seek out review information before spending money on a new component.  Nvidia has set something in motion and it is not finished with them by any means.

[WhitetailAni]

21 minutes ago, Gamer Schnitzel said:

Who here remembers the MSI scalping?

It's just a bunch of little irrelevant people bickering.

I remember that.

"It's just a bunch of little irrelevant people bickering" and those people happen to have combined ~15-20 million viewers.

18 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

And, you care too much about a corporation.

I agree with this. Plus, this:

22 minutes ago, Gamer Schnitzel said:

fangirling Nvidia.

You're doing the same thing.

And where in the world are you getting these numbers? Nvidia Direct News?

[D13H4RD]

1 hour ago, ragnarok0273 said:

I remember that.

"It's just a bunch of little irrelevant people bickering" and those people happen to have combined ~15-20 million viewers.

I agree with this. Plus, this:

You're doing the same thing.

And where in the world are you getting these numbers? Nvidia Direct News?

He's not entirely wrong though. 

 

Look at all of us discussing about this and notice just how many of us use NVIDIA GPUs... 

 

And I know people have claimed they will be switching to AMD but it's not like it's that simple as AMD has their own stock issues to sort out. Not to mention features like CUDA have some of us sticking to Team Green whether we like it or not. 

[D13H4RD]

26 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

The memory utilization for what I do backed by the CUs is what makes me prefer AMD as they tend to do better for what I do.  Steve is the only tech tuber I've seen actually properly test rendering and not using synth bench tactics.  Which is far more helpful.   Another thing that made AMD more competitive for what I do was the use of hbm/hbm 2 from the fury to the VII cards.   As for the shortage, if we ignore the bots and the miner thing, people are ignoring that there is a vram type that both Nvidia and AMD use for their new cards.   Which is the main issue they had with getting the cards stocked in the first place.

And that's fine. As much as I get that brand loyalty is a thing, I very much prefer to be brand-agnostic and purchase the product that best fits my requirements and needs at a desired price point. 

 

It doesn't mean companies that get themselves involved in scandals get a pass from me, as it means I will most likely avoid their products if an alternative that fits those same needs exists. However, when there's only one company that makes the product that fits my personal needs, you can kind of see the problem here. 

 

It's why I've been dearly waiting for bigger GPU competition. 

[Eigenvektor]

9 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

I would say a solid 90% or more of gamers are more than willing to ignore it for another 5-10 years, if they could think for themselves that is.

That's pretty much where I was going with this. Ray tracing is pretty and I don't doubt it's the future. But right now the number of titles that support it is still very low and the performance cost is prohibitive unless you go with absolute high end hardware.

 

If you watch the performance review of Cyberpunk 2077 by Hardware Unboxed, you can see that ray tracing with last gen hardware is basically unplayable unless you bought a 2080 Ti. The 3070 is already limited by its lack of VRAM. I'm fairly certain this will repeat with upcoming titles where you can't realistically use RTX unless you bought the xx80 (Ti). So I'd say for most consumers "usable" ray tracing is still a few hardware generations away.

[D13H4RD]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

My problem more with Jensen is the man's arrogance/attitude, not his products, and it does turn people off from doing business with him.   It's actually why some employees have left as they pretty much describe him as a Karen.   Honestly, I kinda miss when we had 3 options ATI, Nvidia, and 3DFX.

I think that also describes much of NVIDIA's management style. Jensen's a smart guy, no doubt, but the company's management is also known to be paranoid control freaks, always wanting to appear as the winners and being reluctant to back down or accept a perceived loss whilst wanting more and more control over what's being done with their products. 

 

They've got brilliant people on the engineering team, without a doubt. Ampere and stuff like DLSS post-2.0 are a testament. I never had a problem with their product lineup. But their management style is......icky to say the least. 

[Arika]

wait a fucking second.

 

signature at the bottom of the email

 

 

 

Who ever is sending this emails on behalf of him, can't even spell his name right.

 

 

it's Bryan Del Rizzo

 

https://twitter.com/bdelrizzo?lang=en

 

[Moonzy]

16 minutes ago, Arika S said:

wait a fucking second.

 

signature at the bottom of the email

 

 

 

Who ever is sending this emails on behalf of him, can't even spell his name right.

 

 

it's Bryan Del Rizzo

 

https://twitter.com/bdelrizzo?lang=en

 

Is that the official screenshot of the email or it's just a transcript?

[Bramimond]

7 hours ago, Miket482000 said:

To late!  They have made a Massive misstep!  It will take a very long time of abject bowing and scraping from them for a long time to come before they will ever be able to repair the damage that they have done to their Credibility, reputation, and customer comfort that they are not being shady in some fashion!

 

I give it two weeks.

 

It's not like nvidia hasn't always been evil, it's just that people got reminded about it again. But so what?

Big companies that lack notable competition tend to be evil: Microsoft, Google, Facebook, ...

 

What are you going to do about it, install Linux, search with searx.me and not have social media.. or a smartphone for that matter?

 

The reason LTT cared this time was because their bottom line was threatened. Otherwise they'd just continue to defend nvidia like they usually do.

 

What does anyone care whether companies are evil or not as long as their own bottom line isn't affected? Does anyone here give a shit about the morally questionable supply chain of mobile phones, chocolate or other first world products? I mean enough to withhold their purchasing power to actually make a difference. Does anyone actually bother to investigate the entire supply chain of every product that they buy?

 

 

That's why I give this two weeks at most. Nobody actually cares that much. It's more of a reflex. Someone said something bad, let's express disapproval. Oh it's Christmas, time to forgive and forget.

[GDRRiley]

Just now, Bramimond said:

The reason LTT cared this time was because their bottom line was threatened. Otherwise they'd just continue to defend nvidia like they usually do.

you think thats why linus cares? or its it because this move threatens every reviewer. Apple is a company who only sends out units to people who say good things about them, it takes 2-4 weeks after a launch for someone like LTT to get a video out when they buy it at retail. MKBHD and iJustine aren't my cup of tea because of how hard they push apple.

 

its another sh*tty move by a sh*tty company whos trying to push their narrative and view on the industry.

I was screwed over by them on their 900 series with A not the claimed VRAM (970) and B none of the cards on the higher end having enough(970-980TI). They are now not on my list for personal or family purchases. I don't buy Intel right now because they kept limiting CPUs to only 2 gens of motherboards for no good reason.

 

I do care about how bad much of the labor practices are, that is a part of why I keep reusing my old iphone 6s which I bought used.

Chocolate is a very hard one to truly know if its clean. everyone claims theirs is.

I nor anyone has the time for it but I do chose who I buy from for moral reason. amazon is the last place i'll order something from.

[Moonzy]

6 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

they kept limiting CPUs to only 2 gens of motherboards for no good reason.

-looks at the mess AMD was in-

Uhh...

 

Also, they only supported 3 generations, which is 50% more than Intel, I guess

/Derail

[GDRRiley]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

-looks at the mess AMD was in-

Uhh...

 

Also, they only supported 3 generations, which is 50% more than Intel, I guess

/Derail

that came mostly down to small bios chips. and really its 4 gens if you count those early APUs not being zen

my big issues its its all skylake with minor tweaks

[AdmiralKird]

I don't understand how you could be the head of PR at a major international firm and write off a multi-paragraph e-mail like that in an official capacity to a news reporting agency. It's a complete lack of baseline competence. How can you be a janitor and not know how to mop a floor?

[jagdtigger]

16 hours ago, DutchGuyTom said:

As a corporation, especially a big multi-billion dollar corporation, you have to worry about your public relations and credibility.

Apple pretty much busted that theory...... Or any other company that has a sheep herd of die-hard toxic fanbase.......

[thedude4bides]

Anyone really surprised that Google, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter's, etc. methods of narrative control seeped into Nvidia?

[WhitetailAni]

6 hours ago, D13H4RD said:

Look at all of us discussing about this and notice just how many of us use NVIDIA GPUs... 

I use Nvidia simply for their control panel. It's quick and easy to understand, and I don't see a feature that compells me to switch to AMD yet.

[Nex6]

11 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Easy solution create a 3 minute video mocking nvidia on launch day about how they deemed your reviews unworthy for their products therefore if you want a card to buy, buy AMD and your viewers clearly don't matter

 

After a single video they would likely reverse course because it would be basically nvidia giving a middle finger to everyone who viewed that video.

.

I am surprised that you don't think that such behaviour leads to instant death of the channel, at least as a reviewer that anyone would consider to be a serious hardware review channel.

 

9 hours ago, Miket482000 said:

I just sent this E-Mail to Nvidia!  I doubt that they will actually read it or care what I say in it but I did let them know how I felt about their actions of late!!!  E-Mail text follows:

To Whom it may concern at Nvidia!

I can not tell you how angry I am with this company at this time!  I do not have the words to describe to how you have utterly destroyed your credibility with me, and you have possibly permanently crippled you reputation as well!  If you think I will EVER be able to feel that I can completely rely on a review of one of your Cards in the future because of what you have just done, then you are as stupid as the person that sent out that email the other day!  You have done PERMANENT damage to your company's reputation, your products future review report reliability and I am sure your sales for a long long time! Respect, Trust, honor, are all things that are built and maintained by your actions daily, and can be damaged or completely destroyed on a global and seismic scale by just one ignorant action!  You have possibly just done that to yourselves, and it is Completely your fault!

 

9 hours ago, Miket482000 said:

To late!  They have made a Massive misstep!  It will take a very long time of abject bowing and scraping from them for a long time to come before they will ever be able to repair the damage that they have done to their Credibility, reputation, and customer comfort that they are not being shady in some fashion!

 

This is hilarious. That email went straight to spam. In fact if I were reading this at Nvidia, I would probably be sending it around just for laughs. Permanent damage...

 

I still think Nvidia did right by cutting HU from their free cards and they did a mistake by reversing the decision. Those that have been most critical of their move I think have missed the point completely. I would be curious to see some of the harshest critics to address following points one by one and see where we diverge:

 

1. Nvidia has limited number of free cards to send to reviewers. There are way more people asking for the card. That is a fact.

2. No matter how entitled reviewers feel, there ARE obligations that come from receiving a free card ahead of the launch.

3. One of the obligations (that look obvious to me, but apparently some people think that it isn't so) is that reviewer should test and present all the features that Nvidia thinks are important.

4. It is NOT obligation of a reviewer to talk positively about them, but if they are listed as major points, it is obligation of the reviewer to check them up.

5. HU has been asking their viewers for direction of reviews regarding different topics, for example which CPU they should be using in their test bench. They have stated that these polls are not just for fun, but they are actually intended to shape their content better. They want to serve the people.

6. HU has been extremely critical of ray tracing since day 1. Even as recently as few weeks ago, Steve's negative prognosis surprised me (Tim was slightly more optimistic). On top of that they asked their viewers again about ray tracing vs rasterization and the viewership heavily supported rasterization. And they took this very seriously.

7. How seriously? Here is an example. The summary of 3080 review had barely any mention ray tracing at all and zero mention of DLSS. Well, apart from "will be checked later", "it's better", "I haven't changed my mind" and "at least it's not one of their major selling points anymore, just a bonus". The same 3080 review has a comparison graph between 2080 and 3080, of course no DLSS or ray tracing included. Why is this a problem? Because he claimed that Nvidia lied about 80% improvement and that's what he showed as the proof. It's even worse than that. He made this claim showing 1440p and then, while he did show 4k being much more improved, countered it by saying it's "unfortunate because of low VRAM". If you compared these two cards with RT enabled, then the improvement would have been 91% and with DLSS enabled on top of it, it would've been 92%. It's one thing saying that you are disappointed by having the card deliver only 68% improvement in rasterization, but it's a completely different one to accuse Nvidia of deceiving public by claiming 80% improvement, when it's pretty clear that they have been pushing RT and DLSS hard.

8. This is not just about "negative" reviews, it's about being unfair with the coverage. Out of 35 minutes and 29 seconds of their 3080 day 1 review, they spent exactly one minute and 35 seconds on showing either DLSS or RT results. So not only RT has received such poor coverage but even DLSS. Together with the disparaging summary part that I mentioned before, DLSS and RT features received exactly 115 seconds out of 2129 total seconds of coverage, which is 5.4%. That's unacceptable. In my opinion you can do whatever you want with your own card, but with free day 1 review card, I believe that the reviewer DOES have an obligation to give two major selling points, DLSS and RT more coverage than 5.4%. If he is not willing to do so, then I don't see point in giving them those cards.

 

[WhitetailAni]

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

<snip>

Hold up there, sir.

YOU completely missed the point.

I'm going to refute every single point you made, and when I make an error, someone else will likely come along and do it too.

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

I still think Nvidia did right by cutting HU from their free cards and they did a mistake by reversing the decision. Those that have been most critical of their move I think have missed the point completely. I would be curious to see some of the harshest critics to address following points one by one and see where we diverge:

It wasn't really that they cut him off, it was the way that they did it. They made it seem as if Nvidia was willfully giving them cards. They aren't getting free cards - they are getting cards to review and in those reviews they can say what they see fit. If Nvidia released a card that was absolutely crap, Linus would say that. If they released an amazing card, Linus would say that. The problem is the fact that they said that they would not be giving Hardware Unboxed any more cards until he decided to say only good things about Nvidia.

And again, ray-tracing is not a mainstream feature yet. It's not the main reason you should get an Nvidia card.

That's the part of the main problem: that Nvidia cut them off from reviewing cards simply because they didn't praise raytracing enough.

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

1. Nvidia has limited number of free cards to send to reviewers. There are way more people asking for the card. That is a fact.

This is true. However, it isn't like he started doing reviews with Ampere. His first graphics card review was the GTX 980 Ti, 5 years ago.

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

2. No matter how entitled reviewers feel, there ARE obligations that come from receiving a free card ahead of the launch.

They aren't getting free cards. When reviewers get cards to review, they are making a transaction in that the reviewer gets the card and the company gets marketing. It could be good, it could be bad, but that is what happens. So far not looking good for you sir.

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

3. One of the obligations (that look obvious to me, but apparently some people think that it isn't so) is that reviewer should test and present all the features that Nvidia thinks are important.

And he did. Just not in one video. Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3W7Sx4l78&ab_channel=HardwareUnboxed

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

4. It is NOT obligation of a reviewer to talk positively about them, but if they are listed as major points, it is obligation of the reviewer to check them up.

Again, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3W7Sx4l78&ab_channel=HardwareUnboxed

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

5. HU has been asking their viewers for direction of reviews regarding different topics, for example which CPU they should be using in their test bench. They have stated that these polls are not just for fun, but they are actually intended to shape their content better. They want to serve the people.

Ok, and?

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

6. HU has been extremely critical of ray tracing since day 1. Even as recently as few weeks ago, Steve's negative prognosis surprised me (Tim was slightly more optimistic). On top of that they asked their viewers again about ray tracing vs rasterization and the viewership heavily supported rasterization. And they took this very seriously.

Simply because raytracing isn't amazing enough to have it be the feature that everyone wants yet. Rasterization is currently more important.\

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

7. How seriously? Here is an example. The summary of 3080 review had barely any mention ray tracing at all and zero mention of DLSS. Well, apart from "will be checked later", "it's better", "I haven't changed my mind" and "at least it's not one of their major selling points anymore, just a bonus". The same 3080 review has a comparison graph between 2080 and 3080, of course no DLSS or ray tracing included. Why is this a problem? Because he claimed that Nvidia lied about 80% improvement and that's what he showed as the proof. It's even worse than that. He made this claim showing 1440p and then, while he did show 4k being much more improved, countered it by saying it's "unfortunate because of low VRAM". If you compared these two cards with RT enabled, then the improvement would have been 91% and with DLSS enabled on top of it, it would've been 92%. It's one thing saying that you are disappointed by having the card deliver only 68% improvement in rasterization, but it's a completely different one to accuse Nvidia of deceiving public by claiming 80% improvement, when it's pretty clear that they have been pushing RT and DLSS hard.

You say "If you compared these two cards with RT enabled, then the improvement would have been 91% and with DLSS enabled on top of it, it would've been 92%."
Where are you getting these numbers? Nvidia's website? Have you personally benchmarked the cards with the exact same configuration?

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

8. This is not just about "negative" reviews, it's about being unfair with the coverage. Out of 35 minutes and 29 seconds of their 3080 day 1 review, they spend exactly one minute and 35 seconds on showing either DLSS or RT results. So not only RT has received such poor coverage but even DLSS. Together with the disparaging summary part that I mentioned before, DLSS and RT features received exactly 115 seconds out of 2129 total seconds of coverage, which is 5.4%. That's unacceptable. In my opinion you can do whatever you want with your own card, but with free day 1 review card, I believe that the reviewer DOES have an obligation to give two major selling points, DLSS and RT more coverage than 5.4%. If he is not willing to do so, then I don't see point in giving them those cards.

He also said that he would create a separate video about ray tracing on the RTX 3080, which you can watch right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3W7Sx4l78&ab_channel=HardwareUnboxed

 

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

I am surprised that you don't think that such behaviour leads to instant death of the channel, at least as a reviewer that anyone would consider to be a serious hardware review channel.

Excuse me, what?
Nvidia isn't the only tech company in the world. As far as I know, AMD and Intel aren't mad at him for any reason.

 

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

This is hilarious. That email went straight to spam. In fact if I were reading this at Nvidia, I would probably be sending it around just for laughs. Permanent damage...

You are right there. Not going to dispute that.

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

<speech defending Nvidia>

You are a huge Nvidia fanboy.

So go watch Linus' rant on the 12/11/2020 WAN show.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

I still think Nvidia did right by cutting HU from their free cards and they did a mistake by reversing the decision.

Ah yes "free cards", as the saying goes nothing is free and that is even more true in business. Nvidia is not providing free cards, they are entering in to an agreement of mutual benefit simple as that. Now Nvidia might not feel it's mutual anymore and they are more than welcome to come to that decision, however if they make that decision in any way public for it to be securitized then we are also free to comment on their justification and if it is in the eyes of us, their customers, one we agree with and was an ethical decision, I mean business ethics specifically.

 

Nvidia provides nothing for free to reviewers, that just well... false narrative which often gets raise as a necessity to try and back commentary that relies on this.

 

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

1. Nvidia has limited number of free cards to send to reviewers. There are way more people asking for the card. That is a fact.

No they do not have a limited supply. They have hundreds of thousands to millions and the number of review samples Nvidia sends out is at least by my guess in low thousands, probably on the low to very low side of that. Did you know that most of the smaller reviewers do not get review samples in time for launch day coverage and they actually only get a limited amount of time with the product before they have to send it on to the next person. 

 

So right there is yet another bust to the whole Nvidia giving "free GPUs", most do not get to keep them. You have to be a much larger media outlet to get review products to keep indefinitely.

 

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

2. No matter how entitled reviewers feel, there ARE obligations that come from receiving a free card ahead of the launch.

The only obligation is to provide the agreed upon review, which by the way is understood from both sides as to be impartial and fair. Nvidia gets to provide resources and material and highlight what they think is important about their products but for an impartial review the reviewer does not have to talk about or present those Nvidia points in the same way.

 

There are only two obligations; To do the review. To be fair and reasonable.

 

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

3. One of the obligations (that look obvious to me, but apparently some people think that it isn't so) is that reviewer should test and present all the features that Nvidia thinks are important.

Incorrect, that would not be a review. That would be a sponsored video which exist. A review only has to present the information the reviewer thinks is important for the consumer. Reviews are not for the manufacturer they are for the consumer. Manufacturers can and do learn things from reviews and they should be receptive to criticism and critique, which is the fundamental point and reason for a review.

 

A review is not a paid for product placement or advertisement.

 

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

This is not just about "negative" reviews, it's about being unfair with the coverage. Out of 35 minutes and 29 seconds of their 3080 day 1 review, they spent exactly one minute and 35 seconds on showing either DLSS or RT results.

Literally because they said the RT information deserves it's own dedicated video, it's very clear that few people are buying explicitly for RT support or performance so for a day one review little more needs to be covered other than a general idea of how much it is better than the last generation which was shown.

 

As for DLSS, Hardware Unboxed has been one of the most favorable reviewers towards this technology and have since they first reviewed DLSS 2.0 recommended to always use it.

 

Also I'm sorry but anyone that thinks it is good testing methodology to mix in DLSS in to performance reviews in the way Nvidia wants it to be is not being impartial at all. Doing so make zero sense, this is a technology that can change both at the software layer and hardware layer at any point in time independently so it has no place to be mixed in further dirtying the data set. DLSS deserves no better treatment that than the early 2000's Anti Aliasing coverage, which underwent a lot of technology change at the software and hardware layer. These AA tests were there own data points on their own graphs not mixed in with anything else. Hardware Unboxed, and Gamers Nexus for that matter, who put them on their own graphs separated from other test configurations are doing it the correct way, not the way Nvidia wants it to be done and that's just too damn bad for them. 

 

DLSS 4K != 4K, it has no place being on a graph of 4K test results. Neither would any AMD equivalent either, and when there are competing equivalents neither belong on that graph under that configuration jointly at the same time. Comparing them is fine, we still need a clean and clear baseline.

 

1 hour ago, Nex6 said:

I believe that the reviewer DOES have an obligation to give two major selling points, DLSS and RT more coverage than 5.4%. If he is not willing to do so, then I don't see point in giving them those cards.

And what if they are not major selling points. Nvidia does not get to decide what is major selling point of their cards, I do, you do, every other consumer does. Nvidia can wish and market features as if they are but that doesn't make them so. I care exactly zero about NVENC yet many other people care greatly about it, Nvidia has no ability or influence on me to make this any more important to me.

 

So no DLSS and RT are not major selling points of the cards, not unless consumers/customers say it is.

[D13H4RD]

1 hour ago, thedude4bides said:

Anyone really surprised that Google, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter's, etc. methods of narrative control seeped into Nvidia?

Eh, it's none of that. If you'd known how NVIDIA management has worked, you'd realize none of this is terribly surprising. It's also unfortunately common in the world of tech reviews, that MSI fiasco not withstanding.

 

57 minutes ago, Nex6 said:

Even as recently as few weeks ago, Steve's negative prognosis surprised me (Tim was slightly more optimistic).

I think the reason for Tim's optimism versus Steve is that he's usually the one behind the deep dives and other content that make HUB one go-to for me such as monitor reviews. Steve's CPU/GPU reviews, I don't really have much of a problem with but there were areas where I didn't agree with them and/or felt that their methodology was flawed. But Tim's content such as laptop stuff, monitor reviews, deep-dives on DLSS/RT/FidelityFX and game settings guide are the stuff that I regularly watch on HUB and it's the combination of his presentation and content delivery that make me interested in those, especially the settings guide.

[Nex6]

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

I'm going to refute every single point you made, and if I made an error, someone else will likely come along and do it too.

You even admitted you haven't refuted "every single point". But I get what you mean. Let's see.

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

It wasn't really that they cut him off, it was the way that they did it. They made it seem as if Nvidia was willfully giving them cards. They aren't getting free cards - they are getting cards to review and in those reviews they can say what they see fit. If Nvidia released a card that was absolutely crap, Linus would say that. If they released an amazing card, Linus would say that. The problem is the fact that they said that they would not be giving Hardware Unboxed any more cards until he decided to say only good things about Nvidia.

That is not true. Are you claiming this as fact or is it just your understanding?

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

And again, ray-tracing is not a mainstream feature yet. It's not the main reason you should get an Nvidia card.

It might not be the reason why buying Nvidia card, but it might be the main reason to pick Nvidia card over AMD card if their rasterization and value performance are similar.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

That's the part of the main problem: that Nvidia cut them off from reviewing cards simply because they didn't praise raytracing enough.

Again, that is your claim and in my opinion it's not based on facts.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

This is true. However, it isn't like he started doing reviews with Ampere. His first graphics card review was the GTX 980 Ti, 5 years ago.

I get your point, but it also doesn't mean that once you are approved, you must be getting one for life. I do accept that reason for removing from the list should be strong enough.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

They aren't getting free cards. When reviewers get cards to review, they are making a transaction in that the reviewer gets the card and the company gets marketing. It could be good, it could be bad, but that is what happens. So far not looking good for you sir.

I disagree, so far looking pretty damn good for me, thank you very much.  Let's not nitpick words, please. You know what I meant. If it bothers you that much then fine, I will remove the "free" part. My point still stands, which proves that "free" was not the main point at all.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

And he did. Just not in one video. Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3W7Sx4l78&ab_channel=HardwareUnboxed

Again, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3W7Sx4l78&ab_channel=HardwareUnboxed

Yes, I know he did and I mentioned that in my post as well. But my point about obligation is very clear - it's about day 1 review. THAT is why you get cards in advance. That is why everyone and their mothers are whining about how important day 1 reviews are. Well, guess what - if they are that important for the channels, then it's reasonable to say that they are that important to Nvidia as well, wouldn't you say? When I talk about obligation, I specifically mean day 1 obligation. After day 1, people do all kind of stuff with their products, overclock them, SLI them, destroy them by taking them apart etc. All these other things are not part of the day 1 obligation and in fact Nvidia doesn't like any of the 3 things that I mentioned.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

Ok, and?

Nothing, just stating facts before introducing next points, as they are related.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

Simply because raytracing isn't amazing enough to have it be the feature that everyone wants yet. Rasterization is currently more important.\

You are entitled to your opinion and so is Steve. Again, simply stating facts. In my opinion, though, Steve's comments on this have been rather irrational. Not a fact, my opinion. He has attributed malice to Nvidia just because he wasn't happy with first gen RT.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

You say "If you compared these two cards with RT enabled, then the improvement would have been 91% and with DLSS enabled on top of it, it would've been 92%."
Where are you getting these numbers? Nvidia's website? Have you personally benchmarked the cards with the exact same configuration?

They are straight from the Day 1 3080 review posted on HU channel. I knew I would be asked for the source.  

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

He also said that he would create a separate video about ray tracing on the RTX 3080, which you can watch right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3W7Sx4l78&ab_channel=HardwareUnboxed

I addressed this point; it should have been in day 1 video in my opinion, that's the really big one.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

 

Excuse me, what?
Nvidia isn't the only tech company in the world. As far as I know, AMD and Intel aren't mad at him for any reason.

My point is not about Nvidia. I don't think that any brand would want to associate themselves with such childish behaviour. I guess we will never know the truth, because I don't think any channel is stupid enough to start doing that.

 

9 minutes ago, ragnarok0273 said:

You are a huge Nvidia fanboy.

So go watch Linus' rant on the 12/11/2020 WAN show.

Discrediting my opinion as just Nvidia fanboy's opinion is a major error one can make. Even if I were an Nvidia fanboy, that wouldn't invalidate my opinion as long as I am actually providing arguments.

Personally I prefer AMD over Nvidia and while I don't think Nvidia is 10% as bad as Intel, I still don't like their business practices and public statements. I want so bad to buy 6900XT that I'm willing to wait just a while longer to see what they provide as DLSS alternative and whether they improve their ray tracing. But if they remain tight-lipped I will just have to pull the trigger and buy 3080, with heavy heart. So you couldn't be further from the truth. Instead of putting labels to people, just address their arguments, it's going to be better for everyone.