Microsoft reveals why no Surface device has Thunderbolt and why you can’t upgrade your RAM

[LAwLz]

I call bullshit on this.

Is this person seriously telling me that the reason why the Surface doesn't allow user upgradable RAM is because someone could detach the RAM from the motherboard, freeze it with liquid nitrogen and then read the memory in some other computer using specialized hardware so that you can get the info saved in RAM at that point.

 

I know that it is possible, but I call bullshit on that being the reason why they don't allow consumers to upgrade the RAM. If this is the reason why they didn't go with regular DIMM slots then Microsoft are more moronic than I thought. They are removing something usual to a wide audience just to protect someone from an extremely unlikely attack that I bet 99.999% of their customers will never encounter.

 

I think it's far more likely that the reasons they didn't go with DIMMs were:

1) Hard to design modularity.

2) Modularity takes up more space.

3) Soldered RAM means customers has to pay Microsoft for extra RAM at the time of purchase, rather than buy the lowest capacity and then upgrade for a fraction of the cost.

 

Who is this bozo who has mastered the art of spewing bullshit?

Is anyone in this thread actually gullible enough to believe this?

 

 

 

By the way, Windows have been protected from the Thunderbolt attack since 1803.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/kernel-dma-protection-for-thunderbolt

So I find the reasoning for not including Thunderbolt very questionable at best as well. Sounds like they are trying to put a positive spin on a lack of features. Imagine if Intel went "oh no, we aren't releasing i5 processors without Hyperthreading to try and up-sell you to an i7. We don't have Hyperthreading on i5s in order to protect you from speculative execution vulnerabilities!".

 

And yes I know the kernel DMA protection in Windows does not work before the OS is loaded. But that is good enough protection for like 99% of all theoretical thunderbolt attacks because it forces you to restart the computer, and once the computer restarts the RAM gets flushed which means the thunderbolt device won't be able to read what's store in RAM anymore, which is the main danger with DMA.

[hishnash]

24 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

And yes I know the kernel DMA protection in Windows does not work before the OS is loaded. But that is good enough protection for like 99% of all theoretical thunderbolt attacks because it forces you to restart the computer, and once the computer restarts the RAM gets flushed which means the thunderbolt device won't be able to read what's store in RAM anymore, which is the main danger with DMA.

Attacks at boot are even more worrying that trying to attack once booted since it lets the attacker replace/modify the OS that boots, and any secure boot systems you have are easy to bypass. There is a solution but it requires modifying the UEFI and moving those protections that MS use into the UEFI before thunderbolt starts up.  (this requires the motherboard vendors to care about security...)

But when your compute restarts what is the first thing it prompts you for? your PW to decrypt the hard drive. If you have a `bad` PCIe device (like a thunderbolt power cable). Attached then that device can ready your PW in plain TEXT.

1) You look away from your machine for a monent
2) someone replaces the Thunderbolt power cable with one that containers an exploit

3) they reboot your machine

4) you come back to your machine and assume `windows must have had the nerve to do a random updates` (its not like this is unusale)

5) you enter you PW

6) the `bad` power cable steals you PW

 

 

[StDragon]

18 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I call bullshit on this.

Is this person seriously telling me that the reason why the Surface doesn't allow user upgradable RAM is because someone could detach the RAM from the motherboard, freeze it with liquid nitrogen and then read the memory in some other computer using specialized hardware so that you can get the info saved in RAM at that point.

 

I know that it is possible, but I call bullshit on that being the reason why they don't allow consumers to upgrade the RAM.

Yeah, it's a BS excuse.

 

The reality of why they do it has more to do with simplicity of design (compact) as well as reliability. It also allows for lower voltages for improved sleep on battery runtime.

 

My beef with Microsoft is not being at least honest about that. But I do get industrial design requirements that would call for the need to omit the SODIMM slot.

 

Caveat emptor. If you're in the market for an ultralight machine, do be aware of the upgrade limitations

[LAwLz]

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Right so the removal of ports to supply them back in a worse way, I'll re-point you to the first part of the post. TL;DR No this is worse. Also there are thin laptops with full sized Ethernet ports, because if you think this is too thick then I'd have to question your objectivity.

That's 0.7 inch lid closed. Macbook Pro is 0.63 inch.

Nice laptop.

 

I absolutely love that it has an Ethernet port. Not having to carry around an adapter is so nice. Plus HDMI out, LTE support (which I don't use but still), two USB ports (sometimes I wish it had 3). Even has a smartcard reader. Great laptop. Highly recommend.

[AlTech]

39 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

snip

What laptop is that?

[Tech Enthusiast]

3 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

You're arguing against options and versatility. That holds no water in any context. Microsoft is just bringing up random justifications from their asses to increase their margins on an already overpriced laptop

If something I don't need is a potential security flaw, I am happy to not have it.

Every option on a portable device comes with drawbacks. Always.

 

You could shove in a dGPU in every ultrabook. So, does that mean you should? No!

You could shove in VGA ports and everything that came after them. So, should every laptop have them? Hell no.

It is always a tradeoff. You get X, you sacrifice something else. Be it space for bigger batteries, height, weight, security, price or whatever else.

 

There are devices that say the tradeoff for their customers is worth it. Microsoft disagrees. So people that want TB buy something else. People that don't buy Surface devices.

No idea why you think every laptop needs every option. Just be happy to have options.

 

Other people would argue that every portable with TB is a security bomb and should not exist. Just imagine if they would succeed in their war against TB and you could not buy any device with it anymore. Would suck, would it not?

[Dylanc1500]

16 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

What laptop is that?

It looks like an EliteBook 850, but @LAwLz can correct me if I am wrong.

[hishnash]

13 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

To get back to the open door example: Apple is putting a security guy next to the door. You have to pay him (resources, power, latency) and he has a big list of people that are allowed to enter your living room. People looking like pirates are just blocked. Pirates that dress up like a nice person, may pass.

You analogy is a little bit off here. Its more like:

1) start witht the door locked

2) before you unlock the door you create a room in the hallway infront of the front door

3) you secure all the exist from that room so that if you come through the door you can only get into that room

4) you open the door

5) when you want people from outside to be abel to do things to things in yoru house you `move` them to that room

   5.1) eg you want the network PCIe device to be abel to write to a ring buffer: this is like moving a draw from you desk and putting it in that room

* does this cost `resources` in cpu time `no` 
* does this cost `power` yes a very small amount (factions of a %)
* does this add latency only at the very start when you create the room (that takes a few ms durring pre-boot)

the system is designed so you don't need to look at who is entering through the front door, no-one has access to the rest of the house.

Even more interestingly you create a new front door (and empty room) for each street (PCIe device) so they cant even mess with each others stuff in their respective empty rooms, unless the OS creates a portal between them so that they can `share` a draw and both read/write to it.

it is even possible to create secure glass cabinets within this room were you can `display` data that the person/device can read but they cant write to it.

--

why are MS not doing this:

* building the `secure room` before the front door is build is difficult and requires that there is something else already running on the system, apples T2 chips lets the x86 cpu set up this `fake room` before the system memory is started this means that even if someone `forces` there way through the front door their `fake room` is created before any of the other rooms in the house so they just end up in an empty white room.

 

so MS dont do the full job, instead the UEFI creates the house (with the front door open) then when the OS boots they very quickly try to create the front room. But there is a chance that someone can get inside before they are ready (before the windows kernel starts) once you are in the full house you control the house and if you get in before the kernel does you own the kernel and the kernel cant even detect that you are there. Also any secrete values are just stored as normal documents within the house however they do a good job of making it hard to navigate the house without a map but it's possible to do it.

 

-- 

But there are vulnerabilities in our CPUs, (speculative/meltdown style) that we don't yet know about so apple have in addition to doing then used the T2 to store sensitive secrets. This is like taking all your secret items out of the house and putting them in a secure bank vault, the vault is built so that you cant take things out of it you can only ask the bank manager to check things for you.

interesting how the T2 chip shipped 1 month before the public release of these new class of vulnerabilities.  Apple will have known the same day as intel about the issues so had at least 8 months notice to build this system.

 

[justpoet]

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

Over my dead body, you'll have to pry my ports out of my cold dead hands before I give them up.

This.  For every laptop.

 

I don't care if the design goal is to make it thin enough for me to bend accidentally or not.  Make it thick enough for normal USB ports, an ethernet port, audio port(s), and some form of video out (HDMI, DP, mini-dp…don't care, just pick one).  USB-C is just a sensible standard to add on beyond that.  Thunderbolt is better than USB-C, but needs the extra mitigations to make it secure…it'll be interesting to see what happens with the next USB spec, since it includes TB3 in it.

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

What laptop is that?

7 hours ago, Dylanc1500 said:

It looks like an EliteBook 850, but @LAwLz can correct me if I am wrong.

840 actually, but close enough (only difference is screen size).

840 G6 to be more precise. The 840 G5 used to have a 120Hz screen as well but apparently they removed it for the G6.

Great laptop. Highly recommended. Only problem I have with it is that the screen has been slightly damaged because if you press on the lid when it's closed, the screen will rub against the keyboard. I think that has happened while in my bag, so now I have a spot on the screen with a bunch of scratches.

 

 

Apparently it has thunderbolt as well but I really don't care. I have never used that, and I probably won't use it either. I use a USB dock and it does what I need it to. Multiple video out, Ethernet, extra USB ports, power, and so on. What else do you need really?

External storage is accessed through Ethernet or regular USB. I'm not going to use an external GPU but if I were I guess it could be nice.

 

When is Thunderbolt actually used? I can't really think of anything where it is used on a regular basis, or some product where it is used but could be replaced by something else (except external graphics cards, which are not exactly common).

[mr moose]

Who cares?  if it doesn't have the features you want then don't buy the flipping thing.   I won't be buying one in the distant future for various reasons but the lack of thunderbolt is not one of them. 

 

Although I might be pissed if someone produces a thick robust laptop like the old ones but puts in eemc and no way to upgrade.  That would be ultra depressing.

[Arika]

55 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

840 actually, but close enough (only difference is screen size).

the thing that turns me off most HP elitebooks is the dim displays, I don't like anything under 300nits on a laptop. And if they do offer a super bright one, they are waaaay to expensive to justify it.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Who cares?  if it doesn't have the features you want then don't buy the flipping thing.   I won't be buying one in the distant future for various reasons but the lack of thunderbolt is not one of them. 

 

Although I might be pissed if someone produces a thick robust laptop like the old ones but puts in eemc and no way to upgrade.  That would be ultra depressing.

I used to have that mentality of "if I have an issue with a product, I'll just not buy it" but the problem with that, I have noticed, is that if the entire industry is moving in one direction then it doesn't really matter what consumers does because they will sooner or later have no choice but to buy products they think have issues.

 

Take the headphone jack for example. It's not a perfect example but it's the best I can think of right now.

When Apple got rid of it, I knew Android makers would follow. What that meant was that if I had just sat there and gone "I won't make a fuss about this. I'll just not buy the iPhones that don't have a headphone jack" then Android makers would look at that and go "well nobody seems bothered by the removal of the headphone jack, so we'll remove it too!".

If you make a fuss about it, Android manufacturers would see it and go "we don't want that kind of backlash. It's best we keep the headphone jack".

Obvious it didn't work in that case of the headphone jack but hopefully you get the point.

 

Hating on dumb decisions made by one manufacturer might ensure that other manufacturers don't follow suit with the same dumb decisions. If I just sit quiet, other manufacturers will not know that I will be displeased if they do the same dumb thing, in theory.

 

That's why I think it is important to praise and hate on good/bad decisions even if it is in products you yourself never use or even have an interest in using.

If someone who uses Adobe Premier sees some new great feature in Final Cut, it's super important that the person says how great they think the new feature is and spread the word. If that feature gets a lot of praise, Adobe will feel pressured to implement it too. The same is true for bad changes. If Final Cut makes so bad change it's important to say how bad it is so that Adobe doesn't implement it too and make the program you actually use worse.

[mr moose]

31 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I used to have that mentality of "if I have an issue with a product, I'll just not buy it" but the problem with that, I have noticed, is that if the entire industry is moving in one direction then it doesn't really matter what consumers does because they will sooner or later have no choice but to buy products they think have issues.

When it comes top laptops there are lots of options still. EDIT: should just add, that if any company thinks they'll sell an extra 40K units by putting in a TB port then they'll likely do that.  IF there is no consumer demand then a bunch of forum people claiming there is won't make it so.

Quote

Take the headphone jack for example. It's not a perfect example but it's the best I can think of right now.

When Apple got rid of it, I knew Android makers would follow. What that meant was that if I had just sat there and gone "I won't make a fuss about this. I'll just not buy the iPhones that don't have a headphone jack" then Android makers would look at that and go "well nobody seems bothered by the removal of the headphone jack, so we'll remove it too!".

If you make a fuss about it, Android manufacturers would see it and go "we don't want that kind of backlash. It's best we keep the headphone jack".

Obvious it didn't work in that case of the headphone jack but hopefully you get the point.

The thing is, apple can do lots of things with the iPhone because once their clients have invested any amount inside the app store then moving away from iphone/ipad becomes really difficult. In that situation I see the removing of the headphone jack as them leveraging the control they have over users with things like the app store etc.  If I get tired of my Motorola I can go buy a Nokia, then I can get a alcatel, then a Samsung then a asus phone and the whole time keep all my apps.   Many android phones are still using the 3.5 because not all of them want to loose customers.

 

Quote

Hating on dumb decisions made by one manufacturer might ensure that other manufacturers don't follow suit with the same dumb decisions. If I just sit quiet, other manufacturers will not know that I will be displeased if they do the same dumb thing, in theory.

I disagree,  many companies have social listeners.  But the reality is they look at a thread like this and see the same comments from the same people every time.  All that tells them is that it isn't that big of an issue.    There is a reason many companies don't change their products even thought ht e internet goes of it's proverbial tits every time its mentioned. things like loot boxes, pre order games,  windows updates, etc.  either the paying consumers keeps coming back or thee competencies reasoning is actually solid.

 

 

Quote

That's why I think it is important to praise and hate on good/bad decisions even if it is in products you yourself never use or even have an interest in using.

If someone who uses Adobe Premier sees some new great feature in Final Cut, it's super important that the person says how great they think the new feature is and spread the word. If that feature gets a lot of praise, Adobe will feel pressured to implement it too. The same is true for bad changes. If Final Cut makes so bad change it's important to say how bad it is so that Adobe doesn't implement it too and make the program you actually use worse.

The problem with that is noise, There is soooo much noise on the internet and many of these companies get their feedback directly from the customers through other channels, internet forums not so much.

[Arika]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

That's why I think it is important to praise and hate on good/bad decisions even if it is in products you yourself never use or even have an interest in using.

While i agree with this to an extent, there gets to a point where these exact people are ripping on something because they just hate a product or the company that makes it. Happens all the time with Apple and Microsoft. There's a difference between Critique and "blind hatred" for a lack of a better term.

 

For example, one of the more vocal people in thread thread has already said "I dont understand surface freaks", and same with Apple threads, anyone that says "Sheeple" "Apple Sheep" or any variant of such cannot be seen as any legitimate criticism when their debate swings to attacking users. i doubt these people would even consider the product they hate on, even if it met every single criteria of what they were looking for. Hell, I used to be that way.

 

 

EDIT:and yes, their excuse for soldered RAM is the most utter bullshit I've ever read, i would have been happy with any other reason. Mr Fantastic would be proud of the stretch

---

 

People act like the lack of TB means that surface products are useless. 

 

As I put in an eariler post, i use a laptop for work, it does not have thunderbolt, or even USB c. It has a USB A 3.0 port which connects to a dock that connects

1. 2 1080p screens
2. mouse
3. keyboard
4. ethernet
5. VOIP phone

I can up and move to any other desk anywhere in the building and have the exact same experience, Now that i work from home, i could quite easily get IT to provide me with a dock for home.

[Dabombinable]

14 hours ago, leadeater said:

In the same stupidity ruled by design rather than function and what users want. DVD drives are still useful and there were laptops that could either have the DVD drive or a SATA storage device and you could swap them at will. Bad design is a design that doesn't cater to the wishes of the customer, if a company wants to change the accept norm it has to actually be better than what it is replacing, if it at all needs replacing rather than supplementing.

My old Tecra M5 in addition to having a dock (which added; 4x USB, DVI, VGA, 2x PS/2, parallel port, 2nd serial port, modem, ethernet, microphone and headphone jacks) also had the option to quickly swap out it's DVD RAM drive for a secondary battery - in addition to the optional 12cell, well over 5 hours battery life was possible back in 2006.

[GoodBytes]

On 4/26/2020 at 4:41 PM, LAwLz said:

I call bullshit on this.

Is this person seriously telling me that the reason why the Surface doesn't allow user upgradable RAM is because someone could detach the RAM from the motherboard, freeze it with liquid nitrogen and then read the memory in some other computer using specialized hardware so that you can get the info saved in RAM at that point.

I agree, but to keep up with the conversation:

The person, is not telling YOU anything. It is a leaked presentation segment that was recorded. For all we know, it could be a sales pitch to a enterprise company that buys this B.S, and for them is a something they seek out of a laptop/tablet/2-in-1, and so it was said. Sales people will always tell you what you want to hear, or what is best to THEIR (company they work for) interest.

 

Quote

By the way, Windows have been protected from the Thunderbolt attack since 1803.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/kernel-dma-protection-for-thunderbolt

Yea, I am the one that posted this.

But as noted, it is a software solution, not a hardware (so can be by-passed, potentially with much greater ease than a proper hardware solution which is usually the case). And as noted in the document, the device you use may stop working. It needs to be compatible with this. Considering that many hardware (nearly all? or all?) that you can connect on a PCIe slot in your TB enclosure, including graphics cards, don't officially support TB. This security option may pose problems in its functionality. And we don't know the performance impact either.

 

Quote

So I find the reasoning for not including Thunderbolt very questionable at best as well. Sounds like they are trying to put a positive spin on a lack of features. Imagine if Intel went "oh no, we aren't releasing i5 processors without Hyperthreading to try and up-sell you to an i7. We don't have Hyperthreading on i5s in order to protect you from speculative execution vulnerabilities!".

Well, in this case, Intel can fix it. But I see what you mean. That said, as explained in the thread, it was clearly a risk analysis that was done. Meaning, they said to themselves: is it worth the R&D (including the need to a security chip - Apple style, which might end up not great) to put TB3 when there is no actual use case for the target audience of the Surface Pro with TB3?  The answer, they took, was clearly a no, as we can see from their line of products, and they concluded that it won't affect their sales. So far, from their financial statement, it does not indicate to be the case. So I guess, it was the right decision for them.

 

Personally, as as it was discussed, I would not bother with external GPU on a Surface Pro, due to the CPU, and heck, unless you go with the ludicrously expensive i7 model, you don't have a fan... even if the passive heatsink avoids all throttling, considering that Intel didn't realty made any power usage improvements over the years (nothing substantial), the chip is clearly using more aggressive power saving profile to work with such passive cooling solution, and so, terrible for gaming or any sustained load on the CPU. TB3 is great, but I don't see a use case on the Surface Pro, even if it had it. And as mentioned in the previous post, with the new Display Link chip, you can have nice USB 3.0 dockers, with the power to drive a 5K ext display 60Hz or 2x 4K displays at 60Hz, all properly. And Display Link is a chip you find often in those docks (just make sure that the dock uses their latest chips, and not the early  (usb 2.0 days) ones which were crap). So with options like this, assuming no gaming, it makes TB3 even less of a need.

[RedRound2]

19 hours ago, leadeater said:

Because it's used as an excuse to remove ports that I use and need because TB dongles is seen as an appropriate replacement. In my eyes no it is not, don't remove ports I use then provide back a solution that is less convenient and raise it as a positive for flexibility. You know what was more flexible? Having the ports in the first place, that is worlds more flexible than dongles so save a tiny amount of thickness.

Take a look at the latest video in shortcircuit. That's an MSI laptop with regular ports and thunderbolt. If you dont like type c only thin and lights dont buy it. Hving thunderbolt port on all computers, at least in laptops doesnt cost you anything.

Stop equating thunderbolt = no ports. 

That's honestly a pathetic argument.

Quote

In the same stupidity ruled by design rather than function and what users want. DVD drives are still useful and there were laptops that could either have the DVD drive or a SATA storage device and you could swap them at will. Bad design is a design that doesn't cater to the wishes of the customer, if a company wants to change the accept norm it has to actually be better than what it is replacing, if it at all needs replacing rather than supplementing.

Nobody used DVD drives anymore, apart from very special use cases. i dont even know what you're trying to talk about here.

Quote

Today it is a lot easier to make the argument DVD drives in the device is not needed, which has been done successfully as I'm not aware of any that do, but Ethernet ports or HDMI/miniDP not so much.

Guess what, Thunderbolt can be used to directly connect display. There are type c monitors. Do you live under a rock?. Dongles are used to just adapt for now. Like how we used to use VGA to HDMI in the early days (and still in office projectors)

Quote

It's very relevant because it is so common and misplacing the dongle is so easy. Make excuses as much as you like, if it's such a regular occurrence then there is an issue. If a stapler stabbed you 9 times out of 10 you'll start blaming the stapler not your ability to use it. I also cannot control what others do and how prepared they are, leaving the dongle at their desk is simply too easy to do.

Where did you get the metric that thunderbolt causes incovinence 9 out 10 times? That's again ignorant of you. If you're forgetful, get a laptop with other ports too. People like me, who are responsible can easily get away with laptops with only type c ports

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HP connector has been standard across their line of products for decades. These are business laptops, you don't have random mixes of hardware you have set accepted configurations or models and that is what is supplied. Every laptop has that connector other than those using Surface laptops, those people also have a desktop so do not require a dock. It makes no difference if it's an industry wide connector if that as no relevance to the use case in question.

And somehow you craft your point in a way that HP seems to be the only sole laptop manufacturer. Thunderbolt works across broad range of laptops and operating systems. Stop arguing like a broken record already, overlooking all the negatives.

Quote

 

And by chance what peripherals would I want to connect to the dock? That cannot be achieved through the 4 USB ports on the dock and the USB ports on the laptop itself that you can still use? It's got network so don't need that, KB/Mouse so 2 there now the other 2? Don't need a printer as those are networked. Webcam maybe? If you don't want to use the one on the laptop.

What can you not connect using thunderbolt? there's no ceiling here. I can connect gigabit ethernet, have more than 2 USB 3.0 ports, SDcard, display and charge. Again you're comparing thunderbolt, an open stadard to a propriety one. Do you see how stupid your argument is

Quote

I never had a size or thickness issue with any HP or Lenovo laptop in the past, they were slim enough.

Just because you dont have issue, doesnt mean everyone feels the same. Again generalization. Do you not know how objective arguments work? Thunderbolt can be implemented on thick, thin, and full tower desktops alike. There's no excuse today on why you wouldnt implement that. And all you're doing trying to make some coloured one sided argument with no basis whatsoever.

 

Just asnwer this simple question? What will you lose if there's a thunderbolt enabled type c port? And there are plenty on laptops with 1 thunderbolt adn regular ports

Quote

 

Right so the removal of ports to supply them back in a worse way, I'll re-point you to the first part of the post. TL;DR No this is worse. Also there are thin laptops with full sized Ethernet ports, because if you think this is too thick then I'd have to question your objectivity.

Again the same BS that makes no sense.

Quote

That's 0.7 inch lid closed. Macbook Pro is 0.63 inch.

So?

[RedRound2]

17 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

If something I don't need is a potential security flaw, I am happy to not have it.

Every option on a portable device comes with drawbacks. Always.

 

You could shove in a dGPU in every ultrabook. So, does that mean you should? No!

You could shove in VGA ports and everything that came after them. So, should every laptop have them? Hell no.

It is always a tradeoff. You get X, you sacrifice something else. Be it space for bigger batteries, height, weight, security, price or whatever else.

 

There are devices that say the tradeoff for their customers is worth it. Microsoft disagrees. So people that want TB buy something else. People that don't buy Surface devices.

No idea why you think every laptop needs every option. Just be happy to have options.

 

Other people would argue that every portable with TB is a security bomb and should not exist. Just imagine if they would succeed in their war against TB and you could not buy any device with it anymore. Would suck, would it not?

Thunderbolt security risk is stupidly overblown issue. You need your laptop, to not have software mitigations (macOS has, if windows doesn't is Microsoft's fault, not thunderbolt). Second, you need your computer o be turned on and unlocked. There are so many easier ways to then extract data out of a a machine like than, compared to the sophiticated equipment like a hacked ehternet to thunderbolt adaptor, required to take advantage of this flaw.

 

We can t implement efficient dGPU right now because of PHYSICS! Not incompetance, like what micrsoft is clearly displaying here. So what are you even arguing for. Let's not move forward and stay where we are?

[Tech Enthusiast]

Ok, let me try it with your own words then:

 

Thunderbolts usefulness is stupidly overrated. You need half a dozen external devices to notice a difference vs USB3 and you would also need a main device that is capable of nothing but thunderbolt to begin with.

 

Look: There are people that want it and those can buy devices with it. There are people that don't need it, and they have devices that don't cost extra for the licensing and don't have the potential security issue. I just don't understand why you insist on this feature to be present everywhere, even tho most people don't even need it AND it has obvious drawbacks as well.

 

If we would be talking about a feature that would NOT increase prices and would NOT have a security issue, then sure, everything should have it. No amount of arguing will make TB such a feature tho. It is amazing, no doubt! But it comes with drawbacks. Why would anyone take drawbacks, if the gain is not something they need or even want? What's so hard about understanding this? 

Nothing that comes with drawbacks should be demanded on every device. That's just silly. There will always be people not willing to take the drawback, just as there are always people not willing to not have feature X. So,... just have devices for both groups and be done with it.

[Curious Pineapple]

It's funny watching people so emotionally defend a port that one company does not want to implement, and their customers seemingly don't want.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

And somehow you craft your point in a way that HP seems to be the only sole laptop manufacturer. Thunderbolt works across broad range of laptops and operating systems. Stop arguing like a broken record already, overlooking all the negatives.

If you want to extol how good Thunderbolt is then you actually have to show how it is better than existing or past options. We have HP laptops were I work so I'll talk about HP laptops, did you also know Lenovo and Dell also have the exact same style of business laptop docks?

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

What can you not connect using thunderbolt? there's no ceiling here. I can connect gigabit ethernet, have more than 2 USB 3.0 ports, SDcard, display and charge. Again you're comparing thunderbolt, an open stadard to a propriety one. Do you see how stupid your argument is

Almost all of these ports can be provided on the laptop and also have it thin, that was the point. Docking stations are an additional thing. What's stupid is arguing how much better thunderbolt is without actually showing how it is better than providing the ports in the first place and not noticing that most of the ports being removed from devices in the name of thinness are perfectly capable of being provided, example already provided. There is actually no reason a Macbook Pro cannot be thin and still have a Ethernet  and/or HDMI port, these don't have to be exclusive and not having the port and needing to use a dongle is worse, it just is.

 

I won't support creating the problem so a solution can be turned around and supplied back. Very few laptops are keeping the ports I use, and this dongle stuff keeps getting touted as a good solution, don't create the problem in the first place would be nice.

 

2 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Just asnwer this simple question? What will you lose if there's a thunderbolt enabled type c port? And there are plenty on laptops with 1 thunderbolt adn regular ports

Where did I say I did not want a Thunderbolt port? I don't want in place of.

[MageTank]

On 4/26/2020 at 5:53 AM, Arika S said:

Their reasoning for the RAM is suuuuper flimsy.

You don't walk around carrying LN2 and a $3 AliExpress SO-DIMM reader with the intent of disassembling surface books and freezing the DIMM's before they flush their data in order to access bitlocker keys? How can you even call yourself an techie?

 

Thankfully Microsoft had the foresight to come up with this security feature. Well worth paying the $500 premium for an extra 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage for this peace of mind.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

There is actually no reason a Macbook Pro cannot be thin and still have a Ethernet  and/or HDMI port

The issue is not the vertical size but the amount of space used within the laptop the 16", you could reduce the battery size of cource, but if you want to keep the 100W battery and use up more internal space then it will need to get thicker (or larger in some dimension) apple have packed the macBookPro very tight already adding and Ethernet port adds a lot of extra internal material to the case not as much with hdml but sill extra space. 

Maybe when we have a big jump in battery tec that lets us make it a lot smaller we will have that space.

[Dabombinable]

@RedRound2
Here are some Toshiba examples, old and relatively new. The connector BTW is based on PCIe with all of them.
What my Tecra had:

A newer version from 2013 for newer laptops:

All manufacturers with professional laptop ranges (who aren't Apple) have their own port replicators, which kind of negates the need for thunderbolt. Some also have expresscard slots, which allow you to directly add whatever your laptop doesn't have - in a secure hard-to-lose manner (smartcard reader, usb 3.0 ports, additional ethernet etc).