Microsoft reveals why no Surface device has Thunderbolt and why you can’t upgrade your RAM

[Tech Enthusiast]

24 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Apple? lol

Apple is doing a lot of things that they make sound cool, but are actually useless or done better everywhere else.

They do nail the marketing tho. So many people fall for the fancy names and stuff like "This new iPhone is the FASTEST we have EVER made!",... yeah no kidding.

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

PC Enthusiasts also don't try to run every device there is from their tablet tho.

You seem to argue that TB can connect everything to a single device,... that does not have anything itself.

 

Yes, that seems to be true. But who in the world would do that? That sounds like a fancy tech demo to show it is possible, but why would anyone want to do it in a real setting?

If you need several screens, a keyboard, a mouse, some external drives and SD card reader.... how about buying a device that fits the job and not go out of your way to try and make your calculator connect to enough external things at once? 

 

I just don't see the reasoning behind this idea.

In the past 12 years I have been in about 75 IT companies raging from 4 to 5000 people. And while some have used laptops they carry to work every day, they always claimed the situation to be "temporary" only until they have the money to get real machines in the office. Some had people mainly working on external customers, which obviously did have laptops for that. But I remember only 3 not having a full desktop setup anyways. Getting a full-blown Desktop + Laptop is a business expense companies just write off from taxes, while plugging in your tablet do "work" is a rarity at best.

You should use the quote feature if you're addressing the reply to me.

Who's talking about a low powered tablet? I'm talking about a laptop.

 

Okay let's walk through this. Most people are completely fine with laptop these days, in terms of power apart from a very few niche applications that requires you to have a full desktop. That's evident by the fact the laptopts have been cosistantly outselling desktops in both consumers and buisness markets for a couple of years now.

 

But it's common knowledge, that laptops can be limiting in terms of screen size, GPU horsepower, if you're going for a laptop that you can actually cary. And most people, including me want their laptops to be thin, light, portable so it can be easy to carry around. And newer slimmer laptops can't have ethernet, or these days even full size usb ports. Thats where type c comes in

 

In the second situation, where i reach my workplace or home desk with my laptop. Now i want to turn it in to an actual productivity machine, by connecting it to an ultrawide monitor, mouse, keyboard, dock with gigabit ethernet, SDCard, etc. That's where thunderbolt comes in. It has enough headroom to handle multiple IO ports upto 40Gb, displayport, power, etc. And laptops like MacBook Pro has 4 of them to start with, which pretty much gives you the flexibility to connect almost whatever you want and any number of devices. All with a single cable.

 

At home, I could even connect have a mid range GPU in an eGPU closure and play some games that i could never otherwise play on a laptop with intergrated graphics. Or actually edit videos, or do some pretty heavy photoshop work with the extra horsepower. Also some eGPUs come with extra storage facility, giving me again an cohesive way to offload 50_80GBs games on my eGPU storage. 

 

That's the whole point of thunderbolt. And it definitely is possible, as seen with many mac laptop users. I dont understand surface freaks becasue they go extremely long way to defend why the laptops microsoft produces are funadamentally incapable of doing any of this unless you go for the proprietry surface connector (and even with that i beleive you dont get features like daisy chain which is essential for a single cable solution). And in future, with faster revisions of thunderbolts we can even do more things, reduce bottleneck, etc.

 

It's pretty stupid to me not to have thunderbolt in a high end laptop. And microsoft doesn't have any excuse to not have it on their extremely overpriced laptops in the first place

[Tech Enthusiast]

Just because something is possible, does not mean it should be done or is a good idea tho.

If you need it for ease of mind, just ignore the surface line.

[GoodBytes]

37 minutes ago, StDragon said:

If you can, avoid DisplayLink if you value GDI acceleration or require OpenGL or DirectX functionality. I've seen real-world problems with using that tech. Examples include but not limited to

• Browsers crashing when dragging Firefox from one monitor over to another (Intel iGPU laptop screen over the DisplayLink connected monitor)
• Slow performance with Microsoft Outlook until you go to Advanced settings and check "Disable hardware graphics acceleration"
• Google Earth not rendering.

All of those problems have workarounds or fixes that involve settings, updating the app, or installing the latest DisplayLink driver.

 

With TB docks, the monitors tap right into the iGPU. Problem solved. The real problem is the cost of TB docks over USB3 variants. But DisplayPort does not pass through USB3, that only occurs with TB. 

That was a long time ago, heck those DisplayLink devices were on USB 2.0 as well. I remember myself ages ago of the exact issues you are describing.

 

That said, DisplayLink has evolved a lot since then, and beside gaming (as isn't a GPU), in term of "office usage" and watching videos in HD even 4K, they are able to handle the load perfectly fine. They are quite capable chips.

 

All you need to do, is to make sure that device you get with DisplayLink is using their latest chips. I won't be surprise if you find a USB 3.0 dock, but still using the early Display Link chip that were limited to USB 2.0.

 

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

I dont understand surface freaks becasue they go extremely long way to defend why the laptops microsoft produces are funadamentally incapable of doing any of this unless you go for the proprietry surface connector (and even with that i beleive you dont get features like daisy chain which is essential for a single cable solution).

Surface users just don't actually care or use, or need to, those things. Primary users of Surface laptops are all business workers who use it only as a portable device provided additional to their workstation. Most people prefer a device to do one job or task well then many sub-optimally. It's why I'll never buy a laptop with a high-end GPU and I'll never even try to game on one, it's worse than a desktop and thus I'll buy both.

 

If I want a multi monitor setup I'll get work to provide one, not try and use a Surface laptop to do it. If I must use a laptop then I'll be getting a business model with a proper docking connector not a plugin cable style, place and go is better than grab and fiddle.

 

This:

Is better than this:

 

And a proper dock has all the benefits TB can offer and none of the limitations of USB.

 

18 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

And most people, including me want their laptops to be thin, light, portable so it can be easy to carry around. And newer slimmer laptops can't have ethernet, or these days even full size usb ports. Thats where type c comes in

No that is just so wrong, the amount of people that complain about battery life and dongle nonsense for Ethernet or display connectivity is huge. There is no reason you cannot get a full size Ethernet port on a laptop and it still be adequately thin, not that thickness directly equates to weight being very high. I would rather have a larger battery and ports I actually use than 1-2mm thinner and zero positives in doing so, few grams is not worth it.

 

Don't kid yourself, thinness is done for design not for weight.

[Tech Enthusiast]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 Most people prefer a device to do one job or task well then many sub-optimally. It's why I'll never buy a laptop with a high-end GPU and I'll never even try to game on one, it's worse than a desktop and thus I'll buy both.

In the same boat here.

Maybe that is why I don't understand the need for a port that tries to fix bad buying decisions.

 

Where I need a powerhouse for work, I place a desktop with a quadro and AMD threadrippers or epyc.

When I go out to customers, I carry a Surface (or any other suitable ultrabook / tablet, depending on my needs at the time).

When I get home, i obiuously game on a desktop with an RTX 2080ti power and an 9900K.

 

Just thinking about trying to fit those three VERY different use-cases into a single device and fixing the shortcomings with a dongle and connector life,... hell no.

[RedRound2]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Surface users just don't actually care or use, or need to, those things. Primary users of Surface laptops are all business workers who use it only as a portable device provided additional to their workstation. Most people prefer a device to do one job or task well then many sub-optimally. It's why I'll never buy a laptop with a high-end GPU and I'll never even try to game on one, it's worse than a desktop and thus I'll buy both.

So, will adding a thunderbolt significantly hinder this use case as you describe above? WIll a lack of thunderbolt affect the people who actually want to use the laptop i described (which is very possible btw, just that general consumers are not aware about it and windows frivers are usually a mess).

 

Cool bro, you can have a induvidual desktop for gaming. That's just not reality for most people. Most people would rather splurge on one high end device and progressively add things like monitor and dock, rather than having a budget to get a ressonably high end laptop and a full gaming tower.

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If I want a multi monitor setup I'll get work to provide one, not try and use a Surface laptop to do it. If I must use a laptop then I'll be getting one business model with a proper docking connector not a plugin cable style, place and go is better than grab and fiddle.

 

This:

Is better than this:

 

And a proper dock has all the benefits TB can offer and none of the limitations of USB.

What's the max througpout of the dock? can it daisy chain? If so, why cant they then have a standard conenctor like thunderbolt instead of proprietry one? And i dont know how the former one would go together with a laptop. I prefer having the latter one lying on my desk and easily connect it rather than having an attachment style device.

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No that is just so wrong, the amount of people that complain about batter life and dongle nonsense for Ethernet is huge. There is no reason you cannot get a full size Ethernet port on a laptop and it still be adequately thin, not that thickness directly equates to weight being very high. I would rather have a larger batter and ports I actually use than 1-2mm thinner and zero positives in doing so, few grams is not worth it.

Thickness does equate to weight, due to batteies. Extra space will usually be tilized for extra batteries (and that makes device heavier). Also thinness in phones are undesirable because phones have generally a weak battery. But thin and light these days easily get a full day of battery life, so i dont see why it needs to be thicker and hevier, apart from ports. But just having a thunderbolt port solves that and dongle issue is just a bandaid solution before we embrace full type c future. And in my case, I just carry a type A to type c dongle for emergencies in my laptop bag, but I usually never have to use it because all my cables and thumb drives are already type c

 

[RedRound2]

3 minutes ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

In the same boat here.

Maybe that is why I don't understand the need for a port that tries to fix bad buying decisions.

 

Where I need a powerhouse for work, I place a desktop with a quadro and AMD threadrippers or epyc.

When I go out to customers, I carry a Surface (or any other suitable ultrabook / tablet, depending on my needs at the time).

When I get home, i obiuously game on a desktop with an RTX 2080ti power and an 9900K.

 

Just thinking about trying to fit those three VERY different use-cases into a single device and fixing the shortcomings with a dongle and connector life,... hell no.

It's funny how you just generalized that everybody needs a quadro and epyc for their office work and RTX 2080 Ti for their home computer. Not everyone is as rich as you to dig into your vault and splurge on unecessarily costly components that required by extremely few people. Drawing out the extremes to try and prove your point

 

Thunderbolt solution makes your one device extremely versatile and convinent

[Tech Enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

It's funny how you just generalized that everybody needs a quadro and epyc for their office work and RTX 2080 Ti for their home computer.

Where did I do that? I said how I do it, not that everyone should or needs to.

 

Getting a single device that even remotely equals those is way more expensive btw.

There are Alienware Laptops upwards of 16k for business customers that try the one device route. I know a company trying that and it sure is fun to watch them carry their suitcases to work. 

 

As per your other example:

So because YOU want that port, everyone else that does not need it should cope up with the sercurity flaws? Why not... you know... pick a device that offers what YOU need, instead of changing a device that is perfect for everyone else?

[captain_to_fire]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Apple? lol

 

https://support.apple.com/en-ph/guide/security/seca4960c2b5/1/web/1

 

[StDragon]

54 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

That said, DisplayLink has evolved a lot since then, and beside gaming (as isn't a GPU), in term of "office usage" and watching videos in HD even 4K, they are able to handle the load perfectly fine. They are quite capable chips.

In terms of what they're specced to do, sure. But just so you know, I've seen many fail in the field. For one, it's another chip which means another point of failure. Secondly, the dongle implementation is prone to overheating. Though to be fair, I doubt that's a DisplayLink problem insomuch as the OEM vendor that implemented it in their own design (lack of proper cooling for example).

 

So from my perspective in terms of reliability, when the rubber meets the road, I don't recommend them for road warriors; specifically if they themselves or the job they perform is of prominent importance.

[leadeater]

59 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Cool bro, you can have a induvidual desktop for gaming. That's just not reality for most people. Most people would rather splurge on one high end device and progressively add things like monitor and dock, rather than having a budget to get a ressonably high end laptop and a full gaming tower.

The amount of money it costs for a decent laptop for gaming you can buy a nice laptop and a desktop, and be able to service the desktop in to the future and do maintenance upgrades. And today you don't need a large case so space is a non issue.

 

 

59 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

So, will adding a thunderbolt significantly hinder this use case as you describe above?

If it means they cannot add other connectors like the Ethernet port or the dock port then yes, small form factor layouts are hard so you should pick things that are actually useful not might be. I will use DP, I will use HDMI, I will use Ethernet so I want those on the device not a dongle. I might have a use for a TB dongle of some kind but that is incredibly unlikely if those other ports are provided on the device, so what do I actually gain with TB? This is why I also do not use a Surface, literally every meeting someone with a Mac or a Surface has problems connecting to the meeting display because they don't have a dongle or it's not an official one and it doesn't like the display combination for what every reason and we waste 15 minutes hunting for something that should have just been on the device.

 

Literally hours every day is wasted on that, it's so unnecessary and unproductive. We have about ~6000 staff, a bare minimum 60 meetings a day throughout the organization so you have a potential of (15 minutes * [number of attendants]) * 60 = wasted minutes in a day.

 

59 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

What's the max througpout of the dock? can it daisy chain? If so, why cant they then have a standard conenctor like thunderbolt instead of proprietry one? And i dont know how the former one would go together with a laptop. I prefer having the latter one lying on my desk and easily connect it rather than having an attachment style device.

That is a standard connector, HP have used that since I think the 90s. And usage is literally place laptop down on it and slide connector in, it is worlds quicker than reaching for a cable and plugging it in to a port. Daisy chain what? Those are full DP ports which support chaining and it's a USB hub so you can with those but you have so many why would you need to? The whole point of the dock is to provide you with all the ports you need on the dock, chaining for anything other than displays if you need 3 or more isn't required.

 

59 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Thickness does equate to weight, due to batteies

Then put the smaller battery in it, you aren't force to put a large battery in if you want to hit a target weight. But I would greatly appreciate a battery upgrade option at the time of purchase, or a swapable battery which I actually used to use. For years I'd always buy a second battery with a laptop, can't do that now.

 

59 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

so i dont see why it needs to be thicker and hevier, apart from ports

My actual point, thinness results in ports being removed for no real gain.

 

59 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

But just having a thunderbolt port solves that and dongle issue is just a bandaid solution before we embrace full type c future

Over my dead body, you'll have to pry my ports out of my cold dead hands before I give them up.

[StDragon]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

This is why I also do not use a Surface, literally every meeting someone with a Mac or a Surface has problems connecting to the meeting display because they don't have a dongle or it's not an official one and it doesn't like the display combination for what every reason and we waste 15 minutes hunting for something that should have just been on the device.

 

Literally hours every day is wasted on that, it's so unnecessary and unproductive. We have about ~6000 staff, a bare minimum 60 meetings a day throughout the organization so you have a potential of (15 minutes * [number of attendants]) * 60 = wasted minutes in a day

ClickShare is a Godsend. Seriously, you should check it out. The ROI might work out in your favor.

 

Miracast was supposed to solve the issue for universal wireless HDMI connectivity, but Apple is not onboard with it. 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, StDragon said:

ClickShare is a Godsend. Seriously, you should check it out. The ROI might work out in your favor.

 

Miracast was supposed to solve the issue for universal wireless HDMI connectivity, but Apple is not onboard with it. 

We've tried wireless solutions before, wasn't overall stable enough and had too many cases of screen artefacts. A lot of meeting rooms have provided conference computers but people just like to use their computer for what ever reason, because change is hard? People are stubborn 

[imreloadin]

Whaaaat? A technology developed by Intel has been found to lack proper security?!?!? Color me surprised

[Curufinwe_wins]

43 minutes ago, leadeater said:

We've tried wireless solutions before, wasn't overall stable enough and had too many cases of screen artefacts. A lot of meeting rooms have provided conference computers but people just like to use their computer for what ever reason, because change is hard? People are stubborn 

I will say that I've never had an issue with a surface laptop or surface book 2, both using the displayport modes/adapters (non-branded) inherent in USB 3 type c. Since projectors are never high res anyways, you don't really miss out relative to thunderbolt (usb 3.0 displayport mode can do 4k 30 hz? Easily works well for standard 1080 displays).

 

But I don't see the point of thunderbolt on a non-gaming device. USB 10Gbs is more than enough for anything 99.99% of users actually ever use, and USB-PD is not tied to thunderbolt either. 

 

I am not so security focused where I won't buy a laptop with TB3, but I know my own use cases well enough that it simply isn't a value addition. 

 

It doesnt help that Thunderbolt 3 in general is still pretty damn buggy relative to literally any other modern connection interface...

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Since projectors are never high res anyways, you don't really miss out relative to thunderbolt (usb 3.0 displayport mode can do 4k 30 hz? Easily works well for standard 1080 displays).

We have the problems mostly on large screens rather than projectors, it's not even a resolution problem either. Just weird 

[Tech Enthusiast]

15 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

Whaaaat? A technology developed by Intel has been found to lack proper security?!?!? Color me surprised

To be fair, the missing security kind of is the point of the tech. With security, this tech would not exist.

It is less of a tech with security flaws,.. more like a tech that has a tradeoff that may or may not be relevant to you.

[Curufinwe_wins]

20 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

Whaaaat? A technology developed by Intel has been found to lack proper security?!?!? Color me surprised

This has almost nothing to do with Intel, and to be perfectly frank, talking about speculative execution issues as if they are indicative of some general lack of security understanding is rather ignorant.

 

ANY DMA port that is externally externally accessible on a device is a massive POTENTIAL security hole. Thunderbolt 3 is not currently known to be unsecure. The problem is that if an exploit is found (and golden rule is to always assume there is some vulnerability in any code or hardware), DMA type systems are often completely unpatchable without a hardware revision. Microsoft saying that port right now isn't worth the 'risk' to their user base is totally fine. Apple can use their T2 chip and TPM stuff all they want, but it isn't like flaws haven't been found in those either (at least theoretical ones). And having T2 and similar systems at all is a contentious issue in the cybersecurity world because it creates a single point of failure (single point of attack) by which if a vulnerability is ever exploited, the ability for any software or user to identify or stop the attack is effectively 0. 

 

If there are no flaws in those underlying systems, then and only then is the system more secure for using it. But remember the golden rule of cyber-security, "nothing is without vulnerabilities". So it really is a big contention point.

 

 

Again, Thunderbolt 3 is not known to be insecure. It is VERY high risk if found to be.

[GoodBytes]

27 minutes ago, leadeater said:

We have the problems mostly on large screens rather than projectors, it's not even a resolution problem either. Just weird 

The problem I faced from others at work with TVs is the HDMI scaling issue. Which is fixable, but the user needs to know how to fix overscan/underscan issue, and it is less of a problem when all TVs are the same, but they aren't. So it is annoying a bit. That said, I haven't seen anyone have issues using the Surface Hub (1) when using its HDMI inputs. But you are connecting to a computer, essentially, so I am sure they Surface Hub does magic to auto correct things.

 

That said, personally, with my Surface Pro 3, when I host a meetings, I always start it 10-15min before, and always have my adapter in hand, just in case something doesn't work I can fix it myself without wasting anyone's time (my day is planned accordingly, so I don't waste my time doing this). At first, that 10-15min prep was essential for me, but once I nailed my setup (found right quality adapter that works best, know each meeting room and where everything is, etc.), it is quick setup. I spend most of the time getting my ideas together in my head before starting the meeting... or fight with the Cisco bridge system (which I feel is more of a poor IT implementation/support rather than the product being crap, as it used to work great in the past).

 

[RedRound2]

2 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Where did I do that? I said how I do it, not that everyone should or needs to.

You equated your requirements as a point. That's insinuating that everyone requires the same.

2 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Getting a single device that even remotely equals those is way more expensive btw.

Nobody said about eqauls. Most poeple only need a laptop for everything and Thunderbolt significantly allows you to expand functionalities

2 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

There are Alienware Laptops upwards of 16k for business customers that try the one device route. I know a company trying that and it sure is fun to watch them carry their suitcases to work. 

Don't care. I said I wanted thin and light. If i want gaming, I can with an eGPU. May not be exactly desktop performance grade, but it's servicable. And I'm not going to game during my commute.

2 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

As per your other example:

So because YOU want that port, everyone else that does not need it should cope up with the sercurity flaws? Why not... you know... pick a device that offers what YOU need, instead of changing a device that is perfect for everyone else?

I already had this dumb discussion about security flaw with goodbytes. It pretty much means nothing because you need reasonably sophsiticated hardware and macOS already has implementations that would prevent such attacks. Also, anyone with physical access to your computer and unlocked, there are much easier ways to hack into than through thunderbolt.

 

You're arguing against options and versatility. That holds no water in any context. Microsoft is just bringing up random justifications from their asses to increase their margins on an already overpriced laptop

[RedRound2]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

The amount of money it costs for a decent laptop for gaming you can buy a nice laptop and a desktop, and be able to service the desktop in to the future and do maintenance upgrades. And today you don't need a large case so space is a non issue.

I said a thin and light with a good preocessor. Like the Dell XPS 15, or MacBook Pro 16. That 8 core processor is more than enough for 90% of use cases. GPU may be lacking, but you can add eGPU, instead of lugging around alienware laptop.

 

Plus you'll have the same system for everything which is a huge advantage as i dont have to keep sharing files between both devices. Those are actual adavantages and people are totally okay with having one laptop as their main computer.

Quote

If it means they cannot add other connectors like the Ethernet port or the dock port then yes, small form factor layouts are hard so you should pick things that are actually useful not might be. I will use DP, I will use HDMI, I will use Ethernet so I want those on the device not a dongle. I might have a use for a TB dongle of some kind but that is incredibly unlikely if those other ports are provided on the device, so what do I actually gain with TB? This is why I also do not use a Surface, literally every meeting someone with a Mac or a Surface has problems connecting to the meeting display because they don't have a dongle or it's not an official one and it doesn't like the display combination for what every reason and we waste 15 minutes hunting for something that should have just been on the device.

How does Thunderbolt inhibit you to have other ports? There are plenty of laptops with 1 type c thunerbolt port and normal ports. I'm asking you to trade your already type c for a thunderbolt one. Is that so hard to understand?

 

Ugh, what are you even arguing for?

Quote

 

Literally hours every day is wasted on that, it's so unnecessary and unproductive. We have about ~6000 staff, a bare minimum 60 meetings a day throughout the organization so you have a potential of (15 minutes * [number of attendants]) * 60 = wasted minutes in a day.

Irrelevant. Either the user or the office should've been more responsible. That's not thunderbolt's fault.

Quote

That is a standard connector, HP have used that since I think the 90s. And usage is literally place laptop down on it and slide connector in, it is worlds quicker than reaching for a cable and plugging it in to a port. Daisy chain what? Those are full DP ports which support chaining and it's a USB hub so you can with those but you have so many why would you need to? The whole point of the dock is to provide you with all the ports you need on the dock, chaining for anything other than displays if you need 3 or more isn't required.

Can the HP connector be used in other laptops? That's not standard. That's like calling lightning standard. How can DP daisy chain data? Chaining gives you flexibility to add more peripherals, not only displays, if you wish to. It's an option.

Quote

Then put the smaller battery in it, you aren't force to put a large battery in if you want to hit a target weight. But I would greatly appreciate a battery upgrade option at the time of purchase, or a swapable battery which I actually used to use. For years I'd always buy a second battery with a laptop, can't do that now.

Most laptops have a decent battery life these days. And thickness of laptop does matter more than you think. It's a difference between how easily it can slip into a file, folder, etc instead of lugging around a dedicated laptop bag.

Quote

My actual point, thinness results in ports being removed for no real gain.

Portability is a gain. Plus i think it looks better too. And those ports can be adapted to anything, giving me more flexibility than i ever had before with standard ports. But beside the point, you can have thick laptops with thunderbolt port too. It's not like a prerequisite than thunderbolt can only be implemented on thin and lights

Quote

Over my dead body, you'll have to pry my ports out of my cold dead hands before I give them up.

Said all the floppy disk, CD, DVD, headphone jack users. Look where we are now. Do you really want to be part of old bandwagon refusing to change, you'll be left to dust in no time

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

The problem I faced from others at work with TVs is the HDMI scaling issue. Which is fixable, but the user needs to know how to fix overscan/underscan issue, and it is less of a problem when all TVs are the same, but they aren't. So it is annoying a bit.

In my own experience, it's because of signal attenuation using too long of an HDMI cable, or that 3rd party HDMI extenders are of crap quality. But yes I agree, YMMV.

[leadeater]

46 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

How does Thunderbolt inhibit you to have other ports? There are plenty of laptops with 1 type c thunerbolt port and normal ports. I'm asking you to trade your already type c for a thunderbolt one. Is that so hard to understand?

Because it's used as an excuse to remove ports that I use and need because TB dongles is seen as an appropriate replacement. In my eyes no it is not, don't remove ports I use then provide back a solution that is less convenient and raise it as a positive for flexibility. You know what was more flexible? Having the ports in the first place, that is worlds more flexible than dongles so save a tiny amount of thickness.

 

50 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Said all the floppy disk, CD, DVD, headphone jack users. Look where we are now. Do you really want to be part of old bandwagon refusing to change, you'll be left to dust in no time

In the same stupidity ruled by design rather than function and what users want. DVD drives are still useful and there were laptops that could either have the DVD drive or a SATA storage device and you could swap them at will. Bad design is a design that doesn't cater to the wishes of the customer, if a company wants to change the accept norm it has to actually be better than what it is replacing, if it at all needs replacing rather than supplementing.

 

Today it is a lot easier to make the argument DVD drives in the device is not needed, which has been done successfully as I'm not aware of any that do, but Ethernet ports or HDMI/miniDP not so much.

 

53 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Irrelevant. Either the user or the office should've been more responsible. That's not thunderbolt's fault.

It's very relevant because it is so common and misplacing the dongle is so easy. Make excuses as much as you like, if it's such a regular occurrence then there is an issue. If a stapler stabbed you 9 times out of 10 you'll start blaming the stapler not your ability to use it. I also cannot control what others do and how prepared they are, leaving the dongle at their desk is simply too easy to do.

 

55 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Can the HP connector be used in other laptops? That's not standard. That's like calling lightning standard. How can DP daisy chain data? Chaining gives you flexibility to add more peripherals, not only displays, if you wish to. It's an option.

HP connector has been standard across their line of products for decades. These are business laptops, you don't have random mixes of hardware you have set accepted configurations or models and that is what is supplied. Every laptop has that connector other than those using Surface laptops, those people also have a desktop so do not require a dock. It makes no difference if it's an industry wide connector if that as no relevance to the use case in question.

 

And by chance what peripherals would I want to connect to the dock? That cannot be achieved through the 4 USB ports on the dock and the USB ports on the laptop itself that you can still use? It's got network so don't need that, KB/Mouse so 2 there now the other 2? Don't need a printer as those are networked. Webcam maybe? If you don't want to use the one on the laptop.

 

1 hour ago, RedRound2 said:

Most laptops have a decent battery life these days. And thickness of laptop does matter more than you think. It's a difference between how easily it can slip into a file, folder, etc instead of lugging around a dedicated laptop bag.

I never had a size or thickness issue with any HP or Lenovo laptop in the past, they were slim enough.

 

1 hour ago, RedRound2 said:

Portability is a gain. Plus i think it looks better too. And those ports can be adapted to anything, giving me more flexibility than i ever had before with standard ports. But beside the point, you can have thick laptops with thunderbolt port too. It's not like a prerequisite than thunderbolt can only be implemented on thin and lights

Right so the removal of ports to supply them back in a worse way, I'll re-point you to the first part of the post. TL;DR No this is worse. Also there are thin laptops with full sized Ethernet ports, because if you think this is too thick then I'd have to question your objectivity.

 

That's 0.7 inch lid closed. Macbook Pro is 0.63 inch.

[Sauron]

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And by chance what peripherals would I want to connect to the dock? That cannot be achieved through the 4 USB ports on the dock and the USB ports on the laptop itself that you can still use? It's got network so don't need that, KB/Mouse so 2 there now the other 2? Don't need a printer as those are networked. Webcam maybe? If you don't want to use the one on the laptop.

For the the main reason for a dock has always been extra screens