Microsoft reveals why no Surface device has Thunderbolt and why you can’t upgrade your RAM

[RedRound2]

8 hours ago, Arika S said:

snip

USB C ports mostly runs on USB 3.1 gen 2 with 10Gb/s, but usually i believe it's 5Gb/s on older USB 3.0 protocol

Thunderbolt 40 Gb/s

 

With USB C docks, you just have to connect two USB 3.0 devices to fully saturate the connection. So basically a USB C port can at max have two connections at a time excluding power and display. Thunderbolt gives you far more of  headroom. I can connect my MacBook Pro to via single cable to power on my entire system at home ie, a dock that connects gigabit ethernet (can be 2.5 and 5 in future), USB 3.0 devices like external storage, mouse keyboard, daisy chained to a display. That's the future.

 

Now of course, not everyone "needs" to have that much convinence, but what have you got to lose by trading the USB C port with a thunderbolt enabled one? That's my question that nobody here has given me a convinving reply to. Security issue is just dumb as its been concluded upon further discussions. Software mitigations exists, and there are far more easier ways to get data out of laptop than via thunderbolt if it was just lying there turned on and unlocked

[RedRound2]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Sorry but what???? I was arguing removing HDMI, DP and Ethernet ports to give what actually is a clunky replacement, dongles, is worse and unnecessary. You brought up TB docks, I brought up already existing docks that are designed for the purpose and have been used for decades.

Again, who said anything about removing other ports. I told you so many times that there are so many laptop with the normal ports plus thunderbolt. How do you just keep overlooking this statement?

 

Thunderbolt and type c allows you to create a thin laptop without losing much functionality. Earlier, like the 12" MacBook, youd be stuck with USB 3.0 which would pretty much get saturated with anything more than one device connected. Thunderbolt gives you so much headroom that you needn't worry about

 

Also, I saw Lawlz point out how thunderbolt wont be required for 99.9% of users That's false, because a lot of professional Mac users have already switched to this sort of a set up, and the ability to connect gigabit, a storage device, mouse, eyboard, displays, and room to spare for an extra USB or SDCard slot, or even another storage device is only possible with thunderbolt. You can't pull it off with type c without unplugging other things. I've seen this happen with my crappy HP laptop with type c port

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

I have to say your argument is more flimsy. I have actually shown you a laptop with all these ports and is thin and looks nice. Tell me how a dongle is better than actually having the port on the device?

This is just personal preference, and has nothing to do with argument as ive stated a million times that thunderbolt is not excluive to portless laptop designs. But I like sleek laptops, and most of my devices I need to connect are already type C. in the rare instance i need to connect anything else, I do have a simple type a to c dongle kept in my backpack. But i dont recall when i last used it because i dont connect foreign devices to my laptop anyway.

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

So the HP EliteBook laptops I showed you don't exist and it's all just an elaborate illusion? Show me how this is impossible.

Try designing a modern MacBook air with ethernet. Then we'll talk. By thin and lights i mean the extreme ones.

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Enterprise market is huge and certainly is not weird, weird to you because you're not in it maybe. VGA is still a big thing for use because a lot of meeting rooms have VGA only projectors so this is a requirement, not that the dock itself needs it as who brings a dock to a meeting room?

 

 

Thing is there isn't actually a reason not to have a VGA port on this, sometimes a situation comes up where VGA is helpful and you might as well have it than not on something like this. Rest of the ports are no different to a TB dock so it's not exactly 'outdated' other than it not using a port you like to advocate. Real talk, it literally makes zero difference what the connector is so long as it does the job. If I have a HP laptop, will only ever be supplied HP laptops why would I not buy this style of dock that works with what I will be supplied? And when I say I buy I mean my work buys me.

So again you keep marketing about these proprietry docks. We have a usable standard to move into. You keep bringing up that these exists and im giving you a modern solution for it that works across most high end laptops (except surface) and operating systems

[LAwLz]

27 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

With USB C docks, you just have to connect two USB 3.0 devices to fully saturate the connection. So basically a USB C port can at max have two connections at a time excluding power and display. Thunderbolt gives you far more of  headroom. I can connect my MacBook Pro to via single cable to power on my entire system at home ie, a dock that connects gigabit ethernet (can be 2.5 and 5 in future), USB 3.0 devices like external storage, mouse keyboard, daisy chained to a display. That's the future.

Well, it depends on what you connect.

In my USB-C dock at work I got mouse, keyboard, speaker, microphone, cable to my phone.

 

Sure, I might not be able to connect more than two USB devices than both try and use 5Gbps, but what devices actually use that much? The only thing I can think of would be external storage, and how often do you even have that attached, let along have two attached at the same time?

 

2.5Gbps or 5Gbps is kind of unnecessary in the environments docks are typically used (corporate) but even if it wasn't, we're still a long way from it being standard. So you wouldn't be able to take advantage of it in quite a while either. Once that starts being used, we'll probably have USB 4.0 docks that can handle it already.

 

Thunderbolt is simply overspecced for what people actually need (today, and in the coming few years). There is nothing wrong with it being way faster than it needs to be, but that means it's not something people need either.

 

 

27 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Now of course, not everyone "needs" to have that much convinence, but what have you got to lose by trading the USB C port with a thunderbolt enabled one?

Nothing really. The devices might cost a bit more but I doubt it's a significant amount. I mean, my laptop cost about 2000 dollars. I doubt Thunderbolt adds that much to the cost. Maybe it could have been 1900 dollars instead? I kind of doubt it add that much but even if it does, it's basically the same.

 

And keep in mind that I have Thunderbolt on my laptop. I also move around between lots of companies which have a ton of different docks. I also work with networking, and like having multiple screens. I would say my demands are much higher than 90% of people, and I have never needed to use Thunderbolt.

Unless you have a really specific setup. Like some solo content creator which uses external drives using Thunderbolt rather than Ethernet, then I get that Thunderbolt might be useful. But that is such a tiny demographic.

 

I think there is a long list of reasons why the Surface is a terrible device. The WiFi is God awful. I think the whole "tablet" thing is terrible because nobody wants to use Windows on a tablet so everyone I've seen with a Surface just has the keyboard attached at all times (and then what's the point of having a 2-in-1). The lack of ports is terrible (seriously, just 1 USB port? No HDMI?). The list goes on and on. But the lack of Thunderbolt is not something that bothers me.

[GoodBytes]

38 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I think there is a long list of reasons why the Surface is a terrible device. The WiFi is God awful.

I wont say "god awful" as I had worse, but definitely average... not something acceptable for a premium device.

They finally switch to the Intel Wireless card. Something long overdue. Not sure if all models has it, but the Pro 7 has it. Now it comes down to how good the antenna is, but at this point I don't know.

 

38 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I think the whole "tablet" thing is terrible because nobody wants to use Windows on a tablet so everyone I've seen with a Surface just has the keyboard attached at all times (and then what's the point of having a 2-in-1). The lack of ports is terrible (seriously, just 1 USB port? No HDMI?). The list goes on and on. But the lack of Thunderbolt is not something that bothers me.

I can only comment on my situation, I use the pen, so I do flip the keyboard often on the back. Now, as you may recall, I always said that the Surface Pro made 0 sense if you don't care about the pen, as you can get better devices and cheaper. Lack of HDMI never affected me, as it has DisplayPort (well now USB Type-C. It is fully backward compatible to HDMI. In fact, if it had HDMI only, it would be a serious limitation for me, especially that my home setup and work setup have DisplayPort inputs on the monitors.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I think companies would be more willing to change supplier if all their peripherals worked with other brands.

Coming from a long background of endpoint management we stick to brands and even models within it more for ease of management. A lot of effort is required to make sure that when you re-image the device once it comes in, because who keeps the pre-installed OS, that all the drivers get installed correctly and the auxiliary software that make things like the keyboard function keys work. What made Lenovo laptops so great to work with for example is they across almost all of their product ranges used the same device chipsets and where possible went with first party Intel ones which were better written, more stable and easier to get installed. HP on the other hand between models or generations you could have 5 different chipsets in use for the same device controller.

 

Add more devices requires more support hours and introduces more risk of having an issue with a product so you find what is good and works and stick with that until you have a good reason to switch. One of the clients I used to do a lot of work for used Lenovo laptops and would have preferred to stick with them, myself too, but the in country support was terrible and devices sent away for repair would get lost all the time and resolution times were months. It simply became untenable to keep using their laptops, even though failures were rare.

 

At work we can choose from a few different HP models, Surface Pros and MacBook Pros. I doubt we'll switch away from HP at any point soon, not part of that team but there is little reason to change.

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Also, I saw Lawlz point out how thunderbolt wont be required for 99.9% of users That's false, because a lot of professional Mac users have already switched to this sort of a set up

By choice or is that because that is what you have to use... We have an entire creative arts department who teach graphic arts and film making and one of their biggest complaints is dongles. On the network team side one of their biggest complaints is dongles as the MAC address is tied to the dongle not the device so that ruins a lot of network security and device identification methods as people just grab what ever dongle is around and share them, it's a right pain.

 

5 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Again, who said anything about removing other ports.

I did, through my observation of seeing laptop makers actually removing the ports I have been talking about in favor of providing USB-C and TB ports. Are you telling me this is not happening? I'm well aware of laptops that still have the ports I want but these are either expensive or business product line ones and the invasion of dongles has made it in to business line products as well.

 

I am talking about it because I wish to.

 

5 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

So again you keep marketing about these proprietry docks. We have a usable standard to move into. You keep bringing up that these exists and im giving you a modern solution for it that works across most high end laptops (except surface) and operating systems

Then you didn't listen to my point at all, I said these are nicer to use and quicker to dock. I don't care what the plug on the side is that slides in to the laptop, as I brought up this can be TB for all I care. Having to reach for a cable and plug it in to a port isn't as nice as these. If you barely move your laptop around and don't dock and un-dock multiple times a day did you really need a laptop?

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Try designing a modern MacBook air with ethernet. Then we'll talk. By thin and lights i mean the extreme ones.

HP EliteBook 840 G6 is only 16% heavier than the Macbook Air yet has every port I've been talking about. Just because Apple has a product like that in a configuration like that does not mean it's not possible to do better or different.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Lenovo laptops so great to work with

Maybe business but in consumer space they have a pretty nasty track record.....

[leadeater]

27 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Maybe business but in consumer space they have a pretty nasty track record.....

That a bit more of a recent thing, when Lenovo was just rehashing the IBM products they were really good. Once they actually started making changes I had already left endpoint management role, at least for myself I don't keep the original OS either but few do that.

[jagdtigger]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

at least for myself I don't keep the original OS either but few do that.

I only keep it in image form(raw 1 to 1 copy with dd), even then only if the boot drive is small(i had some issues with claiming warranty when they noticed i wiped windows and had linux on it, it was a long time ago but the habit remained)

[Tech Enthusiast]

 

4 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

 

With USB C docks, you just have to connect two USB 3.0 devices to fully saturate the connection. So basically a USB C port can at max have two connections at a time excluding power and display. Thunderbolt gives you far more of  headroom. I can connect my MacBook Pro to via single cable to power on my entire system at home ie, a dock that connects gigabit ethernet (can be 2.5 and 5 in future), USB 3.0 devices like external storage, mouse keyboard, daisy chained to a display. That's the future.

 

So a machine that can't even run all those things at once is used to show a use case that "the other" tech is limited? Kind of funny actually.

You are acting like people saturate 10gbit connections, just because one USB3 could in theory do that. You seem to totally ignore that you usually run far below those saturated connections. Especially with the stuff you mention that all needs connecting.

 

You could do all you currently do on every USB3 as well, without noticing a difference. Apart maybe from data transfer to that external storage, if it has TB as well.

 

Also: If that is the future, count me out. Ill stick with the past in that case. Going backwards at full speed should not be the future, no matter how hard apple marketing claims it to be. Why would anyone even consider that setup, with all the drawbacks on every front, INCLUDING price?

[RedRound2]

16 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Well, it depends on what you connect.

In my USB-C dock at work I got mouse, keyboard, speaker, microphone, cable to my phone.

 

Sure, I might not be able to connect more than two USB devices than both try and use 5Gbps, but what devices actually use that much? The only thing I can think of would be external storage, and how often do you even have that attached, let along have two attached at the same time?

I have my external media storage connected to my laptop when I get home all the time (in addition to gigabit, few spare USB ports for my thumb drives, SDCard for flashing RPi cards, then display and power). Because i dont like filling up internal space with space consuming media. So frequent transfers always happen. And all this is connected via single cable.

 

In future, Im also planning to get an SSD based external storage so I can directly run games off it. All this just cannot be doable with just a type c port. And it matters that the laptop im going to buy today and use it for next 5-6 years is capable of this. Most general consumers are unaware of the fact, that's why it hasnt fully taken off. I guess when they start branding TB3 to USB4, then the adoption will be more widspread

Quote

2.5Gbps or 5Gbps is kind of unnecessary in the environments docks are typically used (corporate) but even if it wasn't, we're still a long way from it being standard. So you wouldn't be able to take advantage of it in quite a while either. Once that starts being used, we'll probably have USB 4.0 docks that can handle it already.

Who said anything about corporate setups. Usually thye can get away with the cheapest laptop on the market. In any content creation setups 2.5 and 5Gb speeds will immeidately be appreciated and as for my home, using my own external hdd to stream to my local network so all my medai files are accessible from multiple devices for my family. And this happens in the background all the time. So again, USB C limits what all you can do greatly

Quote

Thunderbolt is simply overspecced for what people actually need (today, and in the coming few years). There is nothing wrong with it being way faster than it needs to be, but that means it's not something people need either.

I never said people needed it. For a high end laptop like the surface, it should be there. That's like saying why do we need core i7s and i9s on more expensive laptops when 95% of users are perfectly fine with i5s. Thunderbolt gives you versatility and flexibility to do so. USB C doesn't and im not going to buy another laptop after 3 years just for thunderbolt. That's dumb, especially how TB is quite common in all high end laptops today

Quote

Nothing really. The devices might cost a bit more but I doubt it's a significant amount. I mean, my laptop cost about 2000 dollars. I doubt Thunderbolt adds that much to the cost. Maybe it could have been 1900 dollars instead? I kind of doubt it add that much but even if it does, it's basically the same.

It doesn't. You can get a MacBook Air for $799 after student discount. And it has two of them. For microsoft to charge 1500-2000 for laptop without thunderbolt is just straight up cost cutting for more profits. And Ill give you a better reason why they didnt go for it. They used AMD on their 15" notebook before AMD had good offerings and ARM on the Pro X. So, it wouldve broken uniformity across device if 13" had thunderbolt. But why did they make those former decisions in the first place? The AMD CPU wasn't great at all in their laptop and the Surface X is like their 9th iteration on Windows RT. It just microsoft being microsoft with their dumb decisions

Quote

And keep in mind that I have Thunderbolt on my laptop. I also move around between lots of companies which have a ton of different docks. I also work with networking, and like having multiple screens. I would say my demands are much higher than 90% of people, and I have never needed to use Thunderbolt.

Unless you have a really specific setup. Like some solo content creator which uses external drives using Thunderbolt rather than Ethernet, then I get that Thunderbolt might be useful. But that is such a tiny demographic.

You dont need simultanous connectivity. Then USB C is fine. But for people like me who uses their laptop for everything I prefer having to connect one single cable for a psudo desktop like set up at my work and home. 

 

14 hours ago, leadeater said:

By choice or is that because that is what you have to use... We have an entire creative arts department who teach graphic arts and film making and one of their biggest complaints is dongles. On the network team side one of their biggest complaints is dongles as the MAC address is tied to the dongle not the device so that ruins a lot of network security and device identification methods as people just grab what ever dongle is around and share them, it's a right pain.

You're accessing a laptop with a dongle as a server? I cannot possibly imagine why a desktop would only have type C, and how is this related to thunderbolt again? Sounds more like they dont know how to implement or know the what the right devices for the right job

Quote

I did, through my observation of seeing laptop makers actually removing the ports I have been talking about in favor of providing USB-C and TB ports. Are you telling me this is not happening? I'm well aware of laptops that still have the ports I want but these are either expensive or business product line ones and the invasion of dongles has made it in to business line products as well.

Show me.

Dell XPS 15, Razer Blade, gazzillions of lenovo, dell and HP laptops all have regular ports + one thunderbolt enabled type c. I dont see any of them removing ports to accomaodate thunderbolt. There's just a new category of devices with only type c ports. That's it. Nobody is removing them on machines that have ample spaces for other ports. If that was the case, ethernet would've died long time ago.

 

And you're defending microsoft of all people. Who removed all ports and just put a type C, without thunderbolt. Your conjecture has nothing to do with thunderbolt and it's just companies making concious decision to make type c only laptops. And not having thunderbolt on such a device is frankly outragous.

Quote

I am talking about it because I wish to.

That has no relevance to anything.

Quote

Then you didn't listen to my point at all, I said these are nicer to use and quicker to dock. I don't care what the plug on the side is that slides in to the laptop, as I brought up this can be TB for all I care. Having to reach for a cable and plug it in to a port isn't as nice as these. If you barely move your laptop around and don't dock and un-dock multiple times a day did you really need a laptop?

So your argument is that it's nicer to drop a laptop to a dock, than to take a single cable and connect to it. All the while overlooking the fact that, that the cable solution can be used with any laptop and can easily be changed or upgraded to a new one without chaning connector style? If you're going to reply, you better reply by quoting all the questions i pointed at you instead of cherry picking things and continuing this pointless argument.

14 hours ago, leadeater said:

HP EliteBook 840 G6 is only 16% heavier than the Macbook Air yet has every port I've been talking about. Just because Apple has a product like that in a configuration like that does not mean it's not possible to do better or different.

You took weight as a comparison? The MacBook Air has a much better build quality. Yeah im pretty sure I can also design a thick enough magnesium laptop than weighs less than the MBA. Thinness is the determining factor here. I like thin laptops, you dont, so good for you. Get the HP you mentioned. Or wait, dont get the HP because sadly it has a thunderbolt port. Having that option just bugs you right?

12 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

So a machine that can't even run all those things at once is used to show a use case that "the other" tech is limited? Kind of funny actually.

You are acting like people saturate 10gbit connections, just because one USB3 could in theory do that. You seem to totally ignore that you usually run far below those saturated connections. Especially with the stuff you mention that all needs connecting.

 

You could do all you currently do on every USB3 as well, without noticing a difference. Apart maybe from data transfer to that external storage, if it has TB as well.

 

Also: If that is the future, count me out. Ill stick with the past in that case. Going backwards at full speed should not be the future, no matter how hard apple marketing claims it to be. Why would anyone even consider that setup, with all the drawbacks on every front, INCLUDING price?

Read My reply to Lawlz. I cannot keep repeating the same thing again and again.

 

Also, what are the drawbacks of thunderbolt? It's not more expensive, as pretty much all $1000+ laptop has one, except surface. Nobody is offering thunderbolt as extra $100 add on. Drawbacks on all fronts? Bit dramatic when theres absolutely zero substance to what you're saying. And dont bring up security, i already answrd this question and why its jsut dumb

[Curious Pineapple]

Me thinks someone is so enraged and infuriated by the thought of not having thunderbolt, they have have forgotten how to read.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Me thinks someone is so enraged and infuriated by the thought of not having thunderbolt, they have have forgotten how to read.

Or that they have forgotten the addition of thunderbolt does not have to come at the expense of all the other more common ports right now.   A USB A or HDMI can lay dormant on a laptop while a single TB port gets used for everything,  but you cannot use a non existent HDMI port.

[Curious Pineapple]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Or that they have forgotten the addition of thunderbolt does not have to come at the expense of all the other more common ports right now.   A USB A or HDMI can lay dormant on a laptop while a single TB port gets used for everything,  but you cannot use a non existent HDMI port.

There's also the reliability factor. If that hub that costs as much as a laptop fails, you're doing nothing. If that single port gets damaged, you're doing nothing. If a driver or firmware issue causes that port to stop functioning, you're doing nothing. I have an older Elitebook and can buy a dock for £10, that not only replicates all the ports on the machine with both sets being usable, but it also adds more. Would need something like 30 TB dongles to match that.

[Tech Enthusiast]

4 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Also, what are the drawbacks of thunderbolt? It's not more expensive, as pretty much all $1000+ laptop has one, except surface. Nobody is offering thunderbolt as extra $100 add on. Drawbacks on all fronts? Bit dramatic when theres absolutely zero substance to what you're saying. And dont bring up security, i already answrd this question and why its jsut dumb

 

Look, because you ignore all the drawbacks, does not mean they are not there.

TB does cost money and it is a security hole. You may ignore that or don't agree on the importance, but that does not make them vanish. They are both there and valid facts.

 

Thinking Apple is giving them for free is also kind of funny. Without TB, it would be cheaper. No company will put in expenses for free, just because.

And going by your comment about "a 2k device should have it", well... a 2k device should also have adequate cooling to use the included components. Apple products don`t offer that,... after just 2min of going full blast, the CPUs usually throttle below base. So they have TB, yes. But they will melt, long before they can saturate even USB3. Or even use half of their theoretical performance. My MacBook Air will actually shut down after a few minutes of using its full performance. It will reach 105 degree celsius and just shut down. What kind of heavy workload does that need? Well,... installing a 10gb game will be enough.

 

There is no way in hell these machines can saturate USB3, let alone TB. But good thing they added it for marketing, right?

 

So you are fine with a bottleneck that affects everyone using their device, but a bottleneck that affects one in tens of thousands is unacceptable? Do you not see the irony there?

[leadeater]

9 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Or wait, dont get the HP because sadly it has a thunderbolt port. Having that option just bugs you right?

No because it doesn't have TB in place of ports in question, you really haven't bothered listening to anything have you. Why are you replying at all if you have no interest in what anyone is saying?

 

  

9 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Dell XPS 15, Razer Blade, gazzillions of lenovo, dell and HP laptops all have regular ports + one thunderbolt enabled type c. I dont see any of them removing ports to accomaodate thunderbolt. There's just a new category of devices with only type c ports. That's it. Nobody is removing them on machines that have ample spaces for other ports. If that was the case, ethernet would've died long time ago.

 

On 4/29/2020 at 7:30 AM, leadeater said:

I'm well aware of laptops that still have the ports I want but these are either expensive or business product line ones and the invasion of dongles has made it in to business line products as well.

 

So you didn't read that did you. All the cheaper laptops in the market that used to exist that had the ports I'm talking about, I only buy cheap laptops for my personal usage, are the ones affected by what I said. If I wanted to spend a ton of money on a laptop then yes I have all the options in the world, what about those that don't that had options in the past but now do not? Does my need for an Ethernet port no longer matter because I'm not willing to spend enough?

[leadeater]

10 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

You're accessing a laptop with a dongle as a server?

No business have tight network security that uses MAC addresses as a security vector, you cannot just plug a device in to a network outlet, a switch port, and the port goes active and starts working. Switches in business don't act like ones in your house, these have security in place so you with your home laptop cannot walk in and plug in your laptop and get access to the network, the port won't even go active at all let alone getting an IP address.

 

Now the problem is every device has an asset number, this is the unique identifier of the device and all network interface information is recorded against this and this information is used to populate DHCP and DNS server information and also for RADIUS/802.1x network security. If you use someone else's dongle then the device that is active on the network is not your device it is their device, in reality it's not, because the MAC Address is tied to the dongle not the laptop. Dongles SUCK! They are a huge problem for network security and auditing.

 

10 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Sounds more like they dont know how to implement or know the what the right devices for the right job

Are you an experienced and qualified network professional with more than 10 years experience in large enterprise?

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

in reality it's not, because the MAC Address is tied to the dongle not the laptop.

For this reason a lot of networks i have used in the corporate space have moved to wired 802.1x with all our company devices managed through MDM they are each automatically provided with the certificates needed to connect, we can then connect to any `port` in the building (that our user group is granted access to). 

This is preferred over MacAddress security since it is extremely easy to fake your macAddress, (it is a single line command on most posix systems). So if it comes down to auditing traffic and you see some traffic form `Bobs` macAddress that is not enough to prove `Bob's` laptop did the bad deed. All you can say is `bob` connected thier device to another `untrusted network` that captured his mac address then someone else used it, or bob ran some code (on most operating systems reading the macAddess does not requirer admin prive) that harvested his macAddr. (in-fact most applications on your compute read this and send it to servers as its normally one of the values used for limiting the number of devices you can use that softwares license on).

wired 802.1x, normally requires both a public/private key and a user specific secret, this is much better for knowing if `Bob` is using the computer that is connecting to your network.

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, hishnash said:

For this reason a lot of networks i have used in the corporate space have moved to wired 802.1x with all our company devices managed through MDM they are each automatically provided with the certificates needed to connect, we can then connect to any `port` in the building (that our user group is granted access to). 

That is what we use, that's why the dongles are a problem, we also verify if the MAC is known and trusted. We use Aruba ClearPass for Wired and Wireless 802.1x. We don't trust any single authentication factor.

 

Edit:

Not using your dongle results in a network security alert for someone trying to change/fake their mac address.

[hishnash]

Just now, leadeater said:

That is what we use, that's why the dongles are a problem, we also verify if the MAC is known and trusted. We use Aruba ClearPass for Wired and Wireless 802.11x. We don't trust any single authentication factor.

what do you expect the macAddr to provide when it comes to security over 802.11x? 

 

Given that a users macAddress is basically public information an it is so easy to spoof it is not realy a security factor in any way, any be requiring it you are encouraging people to do dirty things like learn how to make thier dongles fake the macAddr, next they will learn how to copy the 802.11x creds onto thier personal device and fake the macAddr, better not to train users in bypassing pointless security less they start to bypass real security.

 

I get using macAddr for devices that don't support 802.11x (but then i would force each of these onto thier own guest VLAN) but for devices with MDM and  802.11x macAddr validation provides not additional security at all.

 

The Encryption of the 802.11x is between the laptops cpu and your access point so even if the `dongle` is compromised it cant read/mess-with the packets it sending.

 

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

We don't trust any single authentication factor.

I take it you require both the certificate and a user PW, it might be possible on some setups to also require an MFA token (but that will limit the number of clients that support that). 

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, hishnash said:

what do you expect the macAddr to provide when it comes to security over 802.11x? 

I just hit 1 twice since I'm so used to talking about that rather than RADIUS 

 

Mac address is part of the rule chain, you don't have to use a single thing to authenticate during 802.1x. ClearPass supports any data source you want so you can check client cert store, mac address, SQL database query etc, basically anything you want. Switch ports are also configured during authentication, ClearPass sends down the configuration once the client authenticates and the config is based on what you authenticated as so switch ports don't actually sit in a configured state, always no config.

 

Mac address is used for DHCP was we do static DHCP leases.

 

Just because you can change your mac address doesn't make it invalid or not useful for network security, as per my edit if you change it it'll raise an alert because you won't match other factors you cannot change so your mismatch gets noticed. We don't care that you can change it, we care because it affects auditing and searchability across our logging systems.

 

19 minutes ago, hishnash said:

I take it you require both the certificate and a user PW, it might be possible on some setups to also require an MFA token (but that will limit the number of clients that support that). 

We do device authentication first so it's zero touch, after you login to the device 802.1x is triggered again (well during login).

[divito]

11 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

I have my external media storage connected to my laptop when I get home all the time (in addition to gigabit, few spare USB ports for my thumb drives, SDCard for flashing RPi cards, then display and power). Because i dont like filling up internal space with space consuming media. So frequent transfers always happen. And all this is connected via single cable.

 

In future, Im also planning to get an SSD based external storage so I can directly run games off it. All this just cannot be doable with just a type c port. And it matters that the laptop im going to buy today and use it for next 5-6 years is capable of this. Most general consumers are unaware of the fact, that's why it hasnt fully taken off. I guess when they start branding TB3 to USB4, then the adoption will be more widspread

I'm not sure I agree there; this use case sounds fairly out there. Most people and clients I've encountered use a dedicated desktop for home use (even those that use laptops extensively when not home), and for those that eschew a desktop, are using fairly standard laptops and use their ethernet for NAS devices at home for most transfers, and SSD via 3.1 for most other scenarios, for those that don't do heavy ingestion.

I've actually helped a few digital professionals and some small businesses alter some work flows because they were drowning in peripheral and dongle overload. It was easier and more cost-effective to upgrade their mobile units to larger capacity internal storage, and for others, upgrading to newer units with ethernet and ditching the majority of their removable media.

 

Personally, I don't think I'd ever choose a device that forces me to increase my peripherals for equal functionality, especially when there are viable options with standard I/O that rival the thinness and lightness of "the best."

[LAwLz]

19 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

I have my external media storage connected to my laptop when I get home all the time (in addition to gigabit, few spare USB ports for my thumb drives, SDCard for flashing RPi cards, then display and power). Because i dont like filling up internal space with space consuming media. So frequent transfers always happen. And all this is connected via single cable.

That sounds like something you could do easily over 5Gbps USB.

The only thing that might be slightly bottlenecked is your external storage, but assuming a typical scenario that should be on a network device anyway, not directly plugged in to your computer.

 

I doubt even your example actually would get bottlenecked by USB-C, and if it does it's probably for very short periods of time. Or in an absolute worst case scenario, you could connect the external storage to another USB ports and use two ports instead of one. Shouldn't be too much trouble, right? And I think it would be well worth it if it meant saving a couple of hundred dollars.

 

19 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

In future, Im also planning to get an SSD based external storage so I can directly run games off it. All this just cannot be doable with just a type c port. And it matters that the laptop im going to buy today and use it for next 5-6 years is capable of this. Most general consumers are unaware of the fact, that's why it hasnt fully taken off. I guess when they start branding TB3 to USB4, then the adoption will be more widspread

I don't think it's a lack of knowledge that is holding Thunderbolt back. I think it's price and a lack of need for most people. Why spend hundreds of dollars more on something that might be technically superior, but is completely wasted? Yeah it can transfer at 40Gbps, that's great. But most people doesn't even need 2Gbps. So why spend more when USB is already over twice as fast as they need?

 

 

22 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Who said anything about corporate setups. Usually thye can get away with the cheapest laptop on the market. In any content creation setups 2.5 and 5Gb speeds will immeidately be appreciated and as for my home, using my own external hdd to stream to my local network so all my medai files are accessible from multiple devices for my family. And this happens in the background all the time. So again, USB C limits what all you can do greatly

Well, corporate settings is where the vast majority of docks are used. That's why I brought it up.

2.5Gbps and 5Gbps is even more rare than Thunderbolt. I get that you want to use 2.5Gbps as an argument for why USB C is limiting but the fact of the matter is that barely anyone uses 2.5Gbps or 5Gbps, so it's kind of irrelevant. If you want high speed networking access, get 10Gbps. The ones that do already have (or at least should have). But I don't see the need for such high speed networking on a laptop. If you're going to for example work with large files that require so much bandwidth, shouldn't you do that on a desktop? I mean, the network won't be your bottleneck in that scenario. The laptop will be.

Also, pretty sure USB C docks has enough headroom to do 2.5Gbps.

 

And by the time 2.5Gbps and 5Gbps is mature then we will be on USB 4 already. So it will be a non-issue. If you think you're "future proofing" your laptop by getting one with Thunderbolt you're sadly mistaken. Thunderbolt will die out in favor of USB 4, just like USB 3 will die out in favor of USB 4. It doesn't make sense to try and future proof by buying a dying standard when both USB 3 and USB 4 will be replaced by the same thing in the future.

 

 

 

22 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

I never said people needed it. For a high end laptop like the surface, it should be there. That's like saying why do we need core i7s and i9s on more expensive laptops when 95% of users are perfectly fine with i5s. Thunderbolt gives you versatility and flexibility to do so. USB C doesn't and im not going to buy another laptop after 3 years just for thunderbolt. That's dumb, especially how TB is quite common in all high end laptops today

The difference is that while most people don't need an i7, they still benefit from it being there. Processing is faster if your processor is faster.

If you don't use Thunderbolt (which most people don't) it is completely wasted by being there. You don't benefit from Thunderbolt unless you actually use Thunderbolt. You benefit from an i7 even though you could make do with an i5.

That's where your analogy completely breaks down.

 

Yes, Thunderbolt is common in high end laptops today. And yet, barely anyone uses it. That should tell you something. That it's kind of a pointless feature except for an extremely small minority of people (out of which most are Apple users).

 

 

 

22 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

It doesn't. You can get a MacBook Air for $799 after student discount. And it has two of them. For microsoft to charge 1500-2000 for laptop without thunderbolt is just straight up cost cutting for more profits. And Ill give you a better reason why they didnt go for it. They used AMD on their 15" notebook before AMD had good offerings and ARM on the Pro X. So, it wouldve broken uniformity across device if 13" had thunderbolt. But why did they make those former decisions in the first place? The AMD CPU wasn't great at all in their laptop and the Surface X is like their 9th iteration on Windows RT. It just microsoft being microsoft with their dumb decisions

AMD devices can have Thunderbolt so I don't think "they used AMD" is the reason why they skipped Thunderbolt.

Like you said, I think they skipped it because they wanted to get some higher margins on their devices. But since barely anyone uses it they weren't afraid of losing sales by skipping it. Why spend money on a feature that is useless to 99.99% of your potential customers?

And yeah, I totally agree that the AMD chip in their notebook was crap compared to the Intel one. I don't think that's very relevant to this conversation though.

 

 

 

22 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

You dont need simultanous connectivity. Then USB C is fine. But for people like me who uses their laptop for everything I prefer having to connect one single cable for a psudo desktop like set up at my work and home. 

Yes but people like you are in an extreme minority and when you are you can't expect companies to always support your workflow when designing their devices.

But even with your setup I really don't think you would be limited with a USB C dock. Tell me again what you had connected.

1) Gigabit Ethernet - Uses up to 1Gbps but usually way less. It doesn't seem like you have a NAS so you should be limited to your Internet connection in most cases. So maybe 100Mbps? 200Mbps? Let's say a 500Mbps connection just so that you don't get mad at me for underestimating

2) External storage - Depends on what storage you got but let's say it peaks at 2Gbps. That's 250Mbps sequential speeds. That's twice as fast as my high performance 7200 HDD. Unless you got a RAID enclosure or use SSDs, your hard drives will rarely even reach 2Gbps of speed.

3) SDCard for RPi - If you got a really high end microSD it probably has U3 speeds, which is 60MBps write speed. So that's 0.5Gbps.

4) USB drives - Low speed stuff. Doesn't use up much. Let's say 0.5Gbps? That's a pretty high end USB memory stick, or several regular sticks.

 

A) Display - Doesn't eat into the bandwidth unless you got some crazy monitor setup like multiple 4K monitors.

B) Power - Doesn't eat up bandwidth either.

 

 

So even if you got everything plugged in all at once, and also happen to push all those things all at once, you will only use 0.5 + 2 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 4.7Gbps.

And that's if you are using EVERYTHING you listed all at once. I just don't buy into the idea that you need more than what USB C would provide. And that's with you as an example, which is what I would consider the niche group of users who got a bunch of high speed stuff connected to your dock. Most people don't even come close to this.

[LAwLz]

11 hours ago, divito said:

I'm not sure I agree there; this use case sounds fairly out there. Most people and clients I've encountered use a dedicated desktop for home use (even those that use laptops extensively when not home), and for those that eschew a desktop, are using fairly standard laptops and use their ethernet for NAS devices at home for most transfers, and SSD via 3.1 for most other scenarios, for those that don't do heavy ingestion.

I've actually helped a few digital professionals and some small businesses alter some work flows because they were drowning in peripheral and dongle overload. It was easier and more cost-effective to upgrade their mobile units to larger capacity internal storage, and for others, upgrading to newer units with ethernet and ditching the majority of their removable media.

 

Personally, I don't think I'd ever choose a device that forces me to increase my peripherals for equal functionality, especially when there are viable options with standard I/O that rival the thinness and lightness of "the best."

I think the problem here is that @RedRound2 is in some weird situation where most studios or companies have multiple employees so it makes sense to have things run over the network. Whenever you're collaborating on something you really don't want things done locally. But since RedRound2 is alone, it makes more sense to do things locally. But instead of getting a desktop that can do everything in one neat package, RedRound2 has gotten a laptop and therefore needs a bunch of peripherals to make up for the lack of ports and power (like saving things to external drives because it won't fit on the internal storage).

 

In my mind, there are two ways to do things.

1) If you're working with others, have as much as possible run over the local network. Storage, encoding and the likes should be handed off to powerful servers that everyone on the network has access to. This makes it far easier to collaborate. Try and have as little stuff as possible tied to (connected locally) to a single machine. Don't solve this by moving stuff in external hard drives around either. Just move it to the network.

 

2) If you are working alone, get a computer that can do what you need it to do, and then keep things locally. Don't buy a cheaper computer and then buy a bunch of expensive peripherals to make up for the lack of power in the computer you bought. Don't cheap out on storage inside the computer and then have to buy multiple external drives to try and fix the issue. You just end up spending a lot of money and getting a worse experience from it.

 

RedRound2 seems to be in situation 2, but doing what I said shouldn't be done. Cheap out on the internals of a computer, and then buy a bunch of external stuff to make up for it. RedRound2's setup might work fine, but it's not optimal. And since it's a very rare situation, on top of being sub-optimal, I think it's silly to blame manufacturers for not catering to his wants and needs.

And like I said earlier with some tissue math, I don't actually think he needs Thunderbolt and that USB C would work just as well, for significantly cheaper.