Nvidia Ampere teased

[KaitouX]

11 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

But, it was.  That was the market at the time.  The market sucked, but there you go.  Sometimes the market doesn't play your way.  That's not NVidia's fault.  They should be allowed to charge what the market will bear, and the market clearly could bear a $1200 2080Ti when released.

The "market" that you're talking about would also "accept" a $10000 GPU, but that doesn't make it any less stupid. The market isn't only the people that are willing to get ripped off btw.

[jasonvp]

4 minutes ago, KaitouX said:

The "market" that you're talking about would also "accept" a $10000 GPU, but that doesn't make it any less stupid. The market isn't only the people that are willing to get ripped off btw.

I'm pretty sure the market that the 2080Ti was aimed at (enthusiast gamers) wouldn't absorb a $10K GPU.  I'm not sure you understand what's at play here.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, SADS said:

Would you pay £100 for a chomp?

It's not about price to performance, it's about the a product being overpriced full stop.

Comparatively to the previous generations, the 2080ti is double the price. Sure, business is business but NV's attitude to pricing is pushing customers away.

Let me explain to you something you probably didn't know. The 2080ti die  is by far larger than the 1080ti because of the added tensor cores and still having a bump in coda core count. The chip is simply more expensive to make so to say it is overpriced because the 1080ti cost x amount at launch is just plain wrong. Also the 1080ti was often at 800 dollars USD so the 2080ti is not double the price. Anyways my point still stands that it is a good card and provides what other don't and some people obviously think it's worth the money otherwise it wouldn't sell. 

[KablahGaming]

On 4/24/2020 at 2:46 PM, Curufinwe_wins said:

so I have to run it disabled and out of SLI. I have a hardline watercooling loop, so I can't easily remove one of the GPU's. You have no idea how hard it was to diagnose that issue....

Can I ask you what problems you were experiencing. My laptop running SLI has been giving me grief shutting down when under load. I assume it was one of the GPUs but I don't know how to diagnose those as bad, the computer seems to think they are running fine. I have also thought maybe I have a MOBO problem but I don't know how to figure it out tried and tried, maybe I should ask the community here.... Anyway anything you may suggest might help.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, KaitouX said:

The "market" that you're talking about would also "accept" a $10000 GPU, but that doesn't make it any less stupid. The market isn't only the people that are willing to get ripped off btw.

No people wouldn't buy a 10000 dollar gpu in the same number that they would at 1200. Companies price products so that enough people will buy them while also making a good margin. For enthusiasts a grand or so can be justified If the product is good like how people can justify a 1000 dollar ultrawide monitor. This also makes sense as one of the few reasons to want the 2080ti is to run it on a high refreshrate 1440p ultrawide or a high refreshrate 4k display which both are expensive in their own right so if people are willing to buy those expensive monitors they are also willing to pay 1200 for the gpu to drive them properly. 

[KaitouX]

41 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

No people wouldn't buy a 10000 dollar gpu in the same number that they would at 1200.

The exact same way that the number of people that would buy a $1200 GPU isn't the same as they would at $700.

[Brooksie359]

19 minutes ago, KaitouX said:

The exact same way that the number of people that would buy a $1200 GPU isn't the same as they would at $700.

While that is true they still have to find the proce that would balance out and make the most amount of money especially considering that the 2080ti is more expensive to make than say the 1080ti so they can't just sell it at 700 otherwise their margin is going to be even less than the 1080ti was. 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

No people wouldn't buy a 10000 dollar gpu in the same number that they would at 1200. Companies price products so that enough people will buy them while also making a good margin. For enthusiasts a grand or so can be justified If the product is good like how people can justify a 1000 dollar ultrawide monitor. This also makes sense as one of the few reasons to want the 2080ti is to run it on a high refreshrate 1440p ultrawide or a high refreshrate 4k display which both are expensive in their own right so if people are willing to buy those expensive monitors they are also willing to pay 1200 for the gpu to drive them properly. 

Also unless you are intending to and also willing to buy the top tier GPU every generation then you shouldn't actually be buying it. A lot of people buy a 980 Ti, 1080 Ti or 2080 Ti with the intention that since it's such a good card it'll last more than one generation. Value and also performance wise this actually isn't a good idea, I still do it myself but it's not the most optimal. The most optimal is actually buying a xx70 or there about and do so every generation, you'll have a better performing card over time than spending big occasionally.

[Curufinwe_wins]

3 hours ago, KablahGaming said:

Can I ask you what problems you were experiencing. My laptop running SLI has been giving me grief shutting down when under load. I assume it was one of the GPUs but I don't know how to diagnose those as bad, the computer seems to think they are running fine. I have also thought maybe I have a MOBO problem but I don't know how to figure it out tried and tried, maybe I should ask the community here.... Anyway anything you may suggest might help.

It would randomly crash and when doing so the visual would freeze and the audio would buzz extremely loudly. The way I eventually figured it out was removing the SLI bridge and trying to boot up with each individual GPU. One would 100% of the time fail to post (or show the post screen then freeze), and the other one would work fine.

 

Being a laptop the problem is way harder to diagnose, but you can try disabling SLI and throwing a game at it for a couple of hours and see what happens. Unfortunately with laptop you can't try swapping individual parts ofc. If in warranty, I would highly recommend sending it in.

[Curufinwe_wins]

23 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Also unless you are intending to and also willing to buy the top tier GPU every generation then you shouldn't actually be buying it. A lot of people buy a 980 Ti, 1080 Ti or 2080 Ti with the intention that since it's such a good card it'll last more than one generation. Value and also performance wise this actually isn't a good idea, I still do it myself but it's not the most optimal. The most optimal is actually buying a xx70 or there about and do so every generation, you'll have a better performing card over time than spending big occasionally.

in fairness, buying a 980ti or even 1080ti (and this goes back to my previous point) was actually the price to performance king of their respective generations (980ti beat 970 SLI even on games with good scaling while being the same price, same with 1080ti). But almost every other generation this wasn't true.

 

Of course, it also depends on how much advancement occurs between generations. A 980ti buyer still didn't get a bad deal over a 970+1070 buyer because they paid the same or less price for having effectively 1070 performance the entire time. (At the price of much higher power consumption and a lack of HDR).

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

in fairness, buying a 980ti or even 1080ti (and this goes back to my previous point) was actually the price to performance king of their respective generations (980ti beat 970 SLI even on games with good scaling while being the same price, same with 1080ti). But almost every other generation this wasn't true.

Well I wasn't really meaning buying in to SLI or anything, but if you brought a 970 and then a 1070 you'd likely be better off than buying a 980 Ti and then not a 10 series card at all. Won't always be true of course, each generation gives different performance uplift and pricing, but the cost of a 970 + 1070 is very close to a good 980 Ti and the 1070 performs better (only just).

 

A 770 + 970 for example was cheaper than a 780 Ti.

 

With all the product line and pricing changes of the 20 series it wouldn't have worked out like I said though. It's why I still just buy the best I can at the time and just wait until I actually need to upgrade, does mean I feel the pricing increases more though.

[KablahGaming]

41 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

It would randomly crash and when doing so the visual would freeze and the audio would buzz extremely loudly. The way I eventually figured it out was removing the SLI bridge and trying to boot up with each individual GPU. One would 100% of the time fail to post (or show the post screen then freeze), and the other one would work fine.

 

Being a laptop the problem is way harder to diagnose, but you can try disabling SLI and throwing a game at it for a couple of hours and see what happens. Unfortunately with laptop you can't try swapping individual parts ofc. If in warranty, I would highly recommend sending it in.

I have disables SLI with no luck. This laptop is 9 years old, way past warranty. It would be nice to fix but am already in the works of replacing it.

[Curufinwe_wins]

11 minutes ago, KablahGaming said:

I have disables SLI with no luck. This laptop is 9 years old, way past warranty. It would be nice to fix but am already in the works of replacing it.

Yeah I don't have recommendations for you there.

[Curufinwe_wins]

31 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well I wasn't really meaning buying in to SLI or anything, but if you brought a 970 and then a 1070 you'd likely be better off than buying a 980 Ti and then not a 10 series card at all. Won't always be true of course, each generation gives different performance uplift and pricing, but the cost of a 970 + 1070 is very close to a good 980 Ti and the 1070 performs better (only just).

 

A 770 + 970 for example was cheaper than a 780 Ti.

 

With all the product line and pricing changes of the 20 series it wouldn't have worked out like I said though. It's why I still just buy the best I can at the time and just wait until I actually need to upgrade, does mean I feel the pricing increases more though.

I think the 980ti and 1080ti are the only times in the past 10 years where that idea isn't true, so I do agree with you in principle.  It is what makes those two cards in particular so special afterall. 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I think the 980ti and 1080ti are the only times in the past 10 years where that idea isn't true, so I do agree with you in principle.  It is what makes those two cards in particular so special afterall. 

And I made the mistake of buying two 290X's lol

[KaitouX]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Also unless you are intending to and also willing to buy the top tier GPU every generation then you shouldn't actually be buying it. A lot of people buy a 980 Ti, 1080 Ti or 2080 Ti with the intention that since it's such a good card it'll last more than one generation. Value and also performance wise this actually isn't a good idea, I still do it myself but it's not the most optimal. The most optimal is actually buying a xx70 or there about and do so every generation, you'll have a better performing card over time than spending big occasionally.

For this type of buyer the lack of value on the 2080Ti kinda makes it way worse than it was in the last few generations, for $360 (or under $400) you can get a GPU that deliver 70%+ of the performance of the $1000+ 2080Ti. The 970 delivered similar performance difference to the 980Ti as from the 5700XT/2070 to the 2080Ti, but while both "cheap" ones are/were close to $350(close to $400 for the 2070) the price on the expensive one went from ~$650 to over $1000, the value on buying the most expensive GPU to keep it longer quite clearly went down by a lot with Turing.

For me that is the big problem with Turing, the performance difference between the GPUs is too small while the price difference is too big. As a comparison point Pascal had a higher performance range between the ~$300 card and the top one than Turing(similar range when looking at the ~$400 to the top one), but the prices were a lot closer.

And unfortunately this isn't a case of the cheaper cards being too good, it is the 2080Ti that is too slow for a flagship that got such price increase regardless of any features that most people would gladly wait to get better performance when using.

[leadeater]

57 minutes ago, KaitouX said:

the value on buying the most expensive GPU to keep it longer quite clearly went down by a lot with Turing.

For me that is the big problem with Turing, the performance difference between the GPUs is too small while the price difference is too big. As a comparison point

The problem here is that Nvidia spent a lot of R&D on Turing and architecture changes in general during those few years and at the same time fab costs went up. So as a result of very high development cost, fab cost increase and die size increase we have a very expensive top end card. Nvidia could likely lower the price of it but for them there is no reason to and it also might delay architecture revisions while they recoup the development cost.

 

I don't like super expensive high end options as much as the next person but there are no market factors currently that would influence lower pricing while many that would influence higher pricing.

 

As to your other point it's rather obvious that Nvidia knows it got the product line balance wrong, I doubt Super was intended or even wanted on their side at all. If Nvidia had a time machine we wouldn't have Super SKUs at all I bet.

[SADS]

If you went to your Ford dealer and bought a (lets just say) new Fiesta, every 4 years. You got a decent spec and paid £20,000.

And you did this every 4 years, generally you get a decent spec Fiesta and as time goes by sure there are some fluctuations in price due to inflation. But each time you get a little more tech and a few extra bhp and headroom.

Then, its time for an upgrade, you turn up to the dealer and suddenly Ford goes "oh yeh, here's your new fiesta, but its £40,000 now".

It's still a new iteration of the same model in the lineup, still a new infotainment system with maybe some extra bhp and a little more headroom.

I don't care how much Ford spent on R&D or cost to build, that's not my problem. As a consumer, that product is suddenly overpriced.

 

You say "fk you Ford, i'll keep my old Fiesta", or you go buy something else.

Steam survey isn't gospel, I know. But even now, 1080ti usage is over double that of the 2080ti and I believe they've been out for comparatively the same amount of time now before discontinuation. Sure people will still buy them, but that doesn't make it sensible or good for the consumer.

[leadeater]

21 minutes ago, SADS said:

I don't care how much Ford spent on R&D or cost to build, that's not my problem.

Well it is your problem because that's how pricing works, if it now costs more to develop you pay more, you certainly aren't going to make a company sell a product below a viable cost no matter what you do. If you don't like the new model and don't value all the new improvements don't buy it. Thing is as you know there are no options so it's suck it up or go without in that segment.

 

I haven't purchased a new GPU since 2013, me not buying hasn't changed anything at all.

[DrMacintosh]

On 4/24/2020 at 1:19 PM, MageTank said:

I just want HDMI 2.1.

Display Port? 

[thorhammerz]

10 hours ago, jasonvp said:

Why do you believe that "most of the market" should be able to afford the upper end GPUs?  That tells me you don't actually understand how the market works.  Some folks get to afford the upper end.  Fewer still can afford the top dog (Titan in this case).  The rest of the folks fall in line with the rest of the GPU strata, depending on their respective income levels.

 

...

 

 NVidia has nothing but the market to help them price their products.  And so far, they're hitting the mark perfectly.

You trying to say market economics actually apply to the tech world?! Such heresy !! 

[SeriousDad69]

On 4/25/2020 at 1:45 PM, Dash Lambda said:

Nvidia's price is $1199, most are around $1300, hybrids and higher-end boards are $1400-1500. Where are you seeing $999?

I've seen a couple crap Zotac cards on sale for $999 before. Nvidia MSRP is generally a massive meme.

[MageTank]

10 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Display Port? 

Sadly my OLED TV lacks Displayport. It supports G-Sync through HDMI through some sort of trickery that I do not understand, but in order to run it at 4k 120hz, I need HDMI 2.1. My 2080 Ti is fast enough, the games I play are all older titles and "e-sports" titles like Overwatch, but HDMI 2.0 can't drive 120hz.

[porina]

20 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Sadly my OLED TV lacks Displayport. It supports G-Sync through HDMI through some sort of trickery that I do not understand, but in order to run it at 4k 120hz, I need HDMI 2.1. My 2080 Ti is fast enough, the games I play are all older titles and "e-sports" titles like Overwatch, but HDMI 2.0 can't drive 120hz.

Same "problem" here. This will be my biggest driver to get a next-gen card. I can run 1440p 120 Hz, or 4k 60 Hz. I want to try 4k 60+ Hz but the interface is the limitation.

[AnonymousGuy]

On 4/28/2020 at 2:21 PM, Curufinwe_wins said:

I think the 980ti and 1080ti are the only times in the past 10 years where that idea isn't true, so I do agree with you in principle.  It is what makes those two cards in particular so special afterall. 

I know it's largely irrelevant to most people, but waterblock costs also make me less inclined to upgrade graphics cards every generation.  GPU waterblocks basically have no resale value because you're not going to easily find someone who wants to buy a) a used GPU b) watercool it c) watercool it with a used block.

 

Nvidia also did themselves no favors making the 2000 series 2x more $ / performance as the used-market 1000 series.  No idea why anyone would buy a 2080 for $700 when you can buy a used 1080Ti for $450.