Could windows PDAs return

[Ryanwake]

  I was watching the teck quickly on Intel phones I was thinking about this, and thinking about how powerful a small Windows Phablet would be, and that because it runs windows it we get a head start up with developing and make it easier for regular people to develop ports.

And it's possible today but imagine in 2 to 5 years the amount of compute power you can fit in your pocket with integrated graphics, you could probably emulate switch games especially considering breath of the wild and let's go Pikachu and Eevee are all most playable on the gpd win 2

[jaslion]

1 minute ago, Ryanwake said:

  I was watching the teck quickly on Intel phones I was thinking about this, and thinking about how powerful a small Windows Phablet would be, and that because it runs windows it we get a head start up with developing and make it easier for regular people to develop ports.

And it's possible today but imagine in 2 to 5 years the amount of compute power you can fit in your pocket with integrated graphics, you could probably emulate switch games especially considering breath of the wild and let's go Pikachu and Eevee are all most playable on the gpd win 2

It won't be x86 based most likely. Pda's are a thing of the past as they were replaced with phones or tablets that offer more features. However I would not be too surprised that pocket sized windows devices will become a thing in the near future with microsoft pushing windows 10x and trying again for a pocket sized device with the surface duo. Give it a bit and the thing they are doing with the surface pro x could be coming to devices like a duo 2 or something similar.

[Bombastinator]

So an AMD64 cpu with phone level power consumption would be required.  I could see it happening.  Wouldn’t play crisis of course.

[Bombastinator]

21 minutes ago, Caroline said:

I just want physical 12-keys to return 

That I do not see happening

[DrDerp]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

So an AMD64 cpu with phone level power consumption would be required.  I could see it happening.  Wouldn’t play crisis of course.

You’d be surprised what can these days, by the time AMD gets it down it will still have to compete with Phones regardless for ease of use but also snappiness and  feel.

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Caroline said:

Then I don't see me buying a smartphone 

 

btw they already brought back flip phones so it's just a matter of time, I'll give it 5-6 years before some hipster thinks the new cool thing is to have real keys instead of touch

It could happen I suppose.  There’s nothing technical stopping it.

[Commodus]

I don't think so.  Smartphones cover that gap quite well, and Microsoft has plenty of apps on Android and iOS that do what a PDA would've done.  If you insist on Windows, there's always the Surface Neo later this year.  It'll be larger than a PDA, clearly, but portable enough that you may be more inclined to carry it with you.

 

It also feels like this is looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses.  Windows PDAs and phones died in part because they were trying to shoehorn something like the Windows PC experience into such a small space; by the time Microsoft realized it needed a brand new interface and heavy mobile optimizations, it offered too little, too late.  Going back to the PDA era, even with some lessons learned, probably wouldn't accomplish much.

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I don't think so.  Smartphones cover that gap quite well, and Microsoft has plenty of apps on Android and iOS that do what a PDA would've done.  If you insist on Windows, there's always the Surface Neo later this year.  It'll be larger than a PDA, clearly, but portable enough that you may be more inclined to carry it with you.

 

It also feels like this is looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses.  Windows PDAs and phones died in part because they were trying to shoehorn something like the Windows PC experience into such a small space; by the time Microsoft realized it needed a brand new interface and heavy mobile optimizations, it offered too little, too late.  Going back to the PDA era, even with some lessons learned, probably wouldn't accomplish much.

True.  It would have to be a new type of device. My suspicion is it will happen anyway if Apple goes to an ARM CPU for their big machines and finishes making iOS and OSX one thing.  IPhones would effectively BE tiny full fledged machines.  To do it they’d have to drop bootcamp and live with just WINE (which will run on ARM).  They might do it.  They have the technology, intel is sucking right now, and they would be doing their own CPU fab, which makes supply chains less evil.  Supply chains are looking a bit fragile these days.

[Ryanwake]

5 hours ago, jaslion said:

It won't be x86 based most likely. Pda's are a thing of the past as they were replaced with phones or tablets that offer more features. However I would not be too surprised that pocket sized windows devices will become a thing in the near future with microsoft pushing windows 10x and trying again for a pocket sized device with the surface duo. Give it a bit and the thing they are doing with the surface pro x could be coming to devices like a duo 2 or something similar.

The only problem with that is that exit 86 emulation on arm is like 10% as powerful as something running natively. Something like emulation or programs but don't run in the web browser would be severely limited. There are already 2 to 15 watt Intel processors running in handheld devices, but I do not, but I don't know if they're ready for phablet-size devices. 8 in sure, but it might need a couple more years to mature.

[Ryanwake]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

True.  It would have to be a new type of device. My suspicion is it will happen anyway if Apple goes to an ARM CPU for their big machines and finishes making iOS and OSX one thing.  IPhones would effectively BE tiny full fledged machines.  To do it they’d have to drop bootcamp and live with just WINE (which will run on ARM).  They might do it.  They have the technology, intel is sucking right now, and they would be doing their own CPU fab, which makes supply chains less evil.  Supply chains are looking a bit fragile these days.

Just because until can't be part of a $300 device doesn't mean they suck but yeah they're not winning right now. I only suggested them because I've only seen one AMD handheld device and it's overpriced and underperforming.

 

I bet they could do it with a couple years of optimization though.

 

The device are talking about is the smach Z, although I wouldn't use them as an example but they have proven that it can be done.

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, Ryanwake said:

  I was watching the teck quickly on Intel phones I was thinking about this, and thinking about how powerful a small Windows Phablet would be, and that because it runs windows it we get a head start up with developing and make it easier for regular people to develop ports.

And it's possible today but imagine in 2 to 5 years the amount of compute power you can fit in your pocket with integrated graphics, you could probably emulate switch games especially considering breath of the wild and let's go Pikachu and Eevee are all most playable on the gpd win 2

When the windows "handheld" and "pocket" pc's came out (like 1997) they came out the same time as tamagotchi's in north america.

 

Unfortunately the problem with a lot of the old ones was that it was married to the start button. Windows Mobile (which was just CE modified to use the then standard left and right option buttons on the device right above the call and hangup buttons on phones. However they still sucked, because they were basically a touch screen with none of the mouse-oriented design.

 

We are unlikely to ever see Microsoft take a fourth crack at Windows Phones again. Windows RT ensured that happened. 

 

The problem is that Windows is utterly useful without being able to run legacy 32-bit software, or even 64-bit versions of legacy software that is mouse oriented. Microsoft tried to twist everyone's arm with the .NET stuff for new software so that you could use managed code, and... well low uptake on that.

 

Like I would like to see Microsoft take another crack at it, but they basically destroyed any customer confidence in Microsoft producing expensive hardware between the abandonment of the Windows CE platform, the abandonment of Windows RT, and even the Xbox 360's crappy build quality that resulted in no less than 7 tries over 5 years.

 

It would not surprise me if Microsoft abandons the Xbox platform, as they have abandoned XNA (that targets the 360, Windows Phone, Zune and Windows desktop (up to 7)), as this non-commitment, again, rears it's head.

 

While I'm not suggesting that Microsoft hang onto things and never throw it away, Microsoft has only been outshone by Google doing the exact same thing. Google's lack of commitment to it's own products is why people don't want to touch Stadia, and why developers don't want to invest in a platform where the company is unwilling commit to a product.

 

The only thing that would get me to go back to Microsoft on the smartphone/pda/tablet would be if Microsoft is willing to out-commit Android and Apple and produce a piece of hardware that they will support for a full 7 years, and be reliable. Surface stumbled, and they're a decent middle ground between the crappy convertible laptops of the years prior, and functional full laptops, but they're basically following the "crappy over-priced laptop" and having the same problems they didn't learn with the Xbox 360.

 

 

And I've mentioned it before that the ultrabook platform is terrible, especially in sub-15" models. You are better off with the iPad than a sub-15" Intel laptop/tablet.

 

However we are seeing Microsoft take another crack at the ARM Windows Laptop/tablet, so if that does well, maybe they might try another phone. But if I'm being honest here, I think we'd have to the cost of LTE modems drop to a few dollars instead of being $300 of the cost of a phone.

[Uttamattamakin]

When we have android Phablets that approach 8 inches what is this?   https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/business/surface-go  

 

Basically that form factor never went away.  When people want Windows they want a small PC that can run all the software that they are used to with some acceptable compromises.  Take that 10' tablet, make it foldable... let it make calls there you have a windows phone.    Who needs android apps when you can run all the goodness of a full PC on such a thing.  For a lot of professionals that would have an appeal.  

That was the one place where MS mobile platforms always did well.  Consumers want to have the same thing as everyone else even when it is demonstrably not as good. 

 

[Ryanwake]

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

When the windows "handheld" and "pocket" pc's came out (like 1997) they came out the same time as tamagotchi's in north america.

 

Unfortunately the problem with a lot of the old ones was that it was married to the start button. Windows Mobile (which was just CE modified to use the then standard left and right option buttons on the device right above the call and hangup buttons on phones. However they still sucked, because they were basically a touch screen with none of the mouse-oriented design.

 

We are unlikely to ever see Microsoft take a fourth crack at Windows Phones again. Windows RT ensured that happened. 

 

The problem is that Windows is utterly useful without being able to run legacy 32-bit software, or even 64-bit versions of legacy software that is mouse oriented. Microsoft tried to twist everyone's arm with the .NET stuff for new software so that you could use managed code, and... well low uptake on that.

 

Like I would like to see Microsoft take another crack at it, but they basically destroyed any customer confidence in Microsoft producing expensive hardware between the abandonment of the Windows CE platform, the abandonment of Windows RT, and even the Xbox 360's crappy build quality that resulted in no less than 7 tries over 5 years.

 

It would not surprise me if Microsoft abandons the Xbox platform, as they have abandoned XNA (that targets the 360, Windows Phone, Zune and Windows desktop (up to 7)), as this non-commitment, again, rears it's head.

 

While I'm not suggesting that Microsoft hang onto things and never throw it away, Microsoft has only been outshone by Google doing the exact same thing. Google's lack of commitment to it's own products is why people don't want to touch Stadia, and why developers don't want to invest in a platform where the company is unwilling commit to a product.

 

The only thing that would get me to go back to Microsoft on the smartphone/pda/tablet would be if Microsoft is willing to out-commit Android and Apple and produce a piece of hardware that they will support for a full 7 years, and be reliable. Surface stumbled, and they're a decent middle ground between the crappy convertible laptops of the years prior, and functional full laptops, but they're basically following the "crappy over-priced laptop" and having the same problems they didn't learn with the Xbox 360.

 

 

And I've mentioned it before that the ultrabook platform is terrible, especially in sub-15" models. You are better off with the iPad than a sub-15" Intel laptop/tablet.

 

However we are seeing Microsoft take another crack at the ARM Windows Laptop/tablet, so if that does well, maybe they might try another phone. But if I'm being honest here, I think we'd have to the cost of LTE modems drop to a few dollars instead of being $300 of the cost of a phone.

I didn't know know that arm Surface tablets were out yet, thanks for letting me know.

 

And I imagine Microsoft get around consumer confidence somewhat by either rebranding or bargaining itself as a different product to what it's tried recently.

 

And I'm sure the arm Windows devices will be great but not for anybody using Windows for games, although I imagine light photo and video editing will get a few optimize programs.

 

 

[IdlePX]

PDAs were awesome, but back then, good ones were mad expensive.

 

I'm not sure how well they'd do now everyone has a smartphone in their pocket at all price ranges, usually with more refined apps.

[Touch My Hamm]

I use samsung dex daily as I can also put linux on it and use it as a full desktop.

[Kilrah]

They never left? 

 

 

[Sauron]

That's what Windows Phone was supposed to be, nobody liked it.

[Retrodex Gaming]

The ultimate would be a windows environment for existing Android devices, even if there was a way to use UWP apps on a Snapdragon devices would be a huge boost for the Windows Store platform!

[Kilrah]

Well quite a few did, but they sure didn't target the wider market nor intend to. They'd typically cost twice what a normal phone would, and they weren't "dumbed down" for every Joe Bloggs to understand. But for people who were into PCs and internet it was way better than nothing. I was SO happy when I got that one back in the day, just would have wanted a bigger screen but apart from that I loved it, a lot more than the multiple others I had before it. That one was the first to have an integrated GPS, could load satnav programs etc...

BTW I had sold mine back in the day, I bought this one for 15 bucks recently because nostalgia.

 

Nowadays I have this, which is basically what we would have wanted handheld PCs to be back then, but tech just wasn't there yet...

 

 

[dalekphalm]

What would be the point?

 

Every person who owns a smartphone already owns a PDA - or the modern equivalent. A Smartphone can do everything a PDA could.

 

And it's not like Windows PDA's could run all desktop software anyway - you basically had to write an app specifically for whatever version of Windows it was running (Windows CE or Windows Mobile 6.x, etc).

 

You may eventually see the return of a full-blown Windows mobile device running x86, in the form of a tablet or a smartphone, but even that is questionable. I think Microsoft would like to get away from x86 eventually - which means dropping legacy win32 support, which is what most people seem to think they want out of a "Modern Windows PDA" or a "Windows smartphone".

[Bombastinator]

28 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

What would be the point?

 

Every person who owns a smartphone already owns a PDA - or the modern equivalent. A Smartphone can do everything a PDA could.

 

And it's not like Windows PDA's could run all desktop software anyway - you basically had to write an app specifically for whatever version of Windows it was running (Windows CE or Windows Mobile 6.x, etc).

 

You may eventually see the return of a full-blown Windows mobile device running x86, in the form of a tablet or a smartphone, but even that is questionable. I think Microsoft would like to get away from x86 eventually - which means dropping legacy win32 support, which is what most people seem to think they want out of a "Modern Windows PDA" or a "Windows smartphone".

For this to have any point it would have to run win10.  Straight win10.  They’d basically be little tiny laptops you put in your pocket.  Maybe a psion5 sort of thing.  You could touch type on those.  It took a bit of practice and it was 8finger typing (you had to tuck your thumbs into your palms and hold your hands right next to each other) it was totally doable though.

[mr moose]

I personally would love it,  basically we are talking about a phone, but having another player in that the field would be awesome.   I would pay more for a phone if it came with a supported alternative to android/ios. 

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

What would be the point?

 

Every person who owns a smartphone already owns a PDA - or the modern equivalent. A Smartphone can do everything a PDA could.

 

And it's not like Windows PDA's could run all desktop software anyway - you basically had to write an app specifically for whatever version of Windows it was running (Windows CE or Windows Mobile 6.x, etc).

 

You may eventually see the return of a full-blown Windows mobile device running x86, in the form of a tablet or a smartphone, but even that is questionable. I think Microsoft would like to get away from x86 eventually - which means dropping legacy win32 support, which is what most people seem to think they want out of a "Modern Windows PDA" or a "Windows smartphone".

You could say we still have PDA's since the iPod Touch is basically the Smartphone without the phone.

 

However, back in the 2000's PDA's slowly got cell phone features, and Microsoft was actually the one that built the first device that resembles what Apple eventually designed. Though Apple originally invented the "icon-app" interface. Blackberry was still hellbent on full keyboards on their devices and Java apps, which is what Android was originally targeting.

 

You might say Google was blindsided by Apple when Apple's device ate everyone's lunch, and Google's Android OS is still a failure for all but one manufacturer even today. Apple collects 66% of the profit in regards to smartphones. Compared to Samsung's 17%. (src: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/heres-why-apple-remains-the-most-profitable-smartphone-brand-in-the-world/articleshow/72895828.cms )

 

 

[dalekphalm]

12 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

For this to have any point it would have to run win10.  Straight win10.  They’d basically be little tiny laptops you put in your pocket.  Maybe a psion5 sort of thing.  You could touch type on those.  It took a bit of practice and it was 8finger typing (you had to tuck your thumbs into your palms and hold your hands right next to each other) it was totally doable though.

But that's not a good experience - very niche, and a few devices basically already do that.

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

I personally would love it,  basically we are talking about a phone, but having another player in that the field would be awesome.   I would pay more for a phone if it came with a supported alternative to android/ios. 

We already had that: Windows 10 Mobile - as an avid user, I was there. Not enough other people cared, and Microsoft's competitors *cough*Google*cough* actively tried to sabotage W10M (and it's previous iterations) by blocking Google Apps from being on the platform.

 

I had Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Phone 7, Windows Phone 8, and Windows 10 Mobile - and everything after 6.5 was great. I stuck with them the entire time they tried to jumpstart a new modern mobile OS, and the market just couldn't give one care about it.

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

You could say we still have PDA's since the iPod Touch is basically the Smartphone without the phone.

Kind of - we also have lots of small formfactor tablets, like 7" and 8" Android tablets, iPad Mini, the odd Windows tablet, etc.

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

However, back in the 2000's PDA's slowly got cell phone features, and Microsoft was actually the one that built the first device that resembles what Apple eventually designed. Though Apple originally invented the "icon-app" interface. Blackberry was still hellbent on full keyboards on their devices and Java apps, which is what Android was originally targeting.

I literally think there's no point in a non-smartphone PDA, because Smartphones are PDA's. A smartphone does everything a PDA did, and more. And anyone who would carry a PDA already has a smartphone.

 

And anyone who has a smartphone and needs another device for PDA-like function, basically need a Tablet (and probably already have one).

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

You might say Google was blindsided by Apple when Apple's device ate everyone's lunch, and Google's Android OS is still a failure for all but one manufacturer even today. Apple collects 66% of the profit in regards to smartphones. Compared to Samsung's 17%. (src: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/heres-why-apple-remains-the-most-profitable-smartphone-brand-in-the-world/articleshow/72895828.cms )

No argument there - but at the same time, Google itself doesn't need Android smartphone manufacturers to be successful, per se - they are after the data, in the end, not hardware sales.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

But that's not a good experience - very niche, and a few devices basically already do that.

We already had that: Windows 10 Mobile - as an avid user, I was there. Not enough other people cared, and Microsoft's competitors *cough*Google*cough* actively tried to sabotage W10M (and it's previous iterations) by blocking Google Apps from being on the platform.

 

I had Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Phone 7, Windows Phone 8, and Windows 10 Mobile - and everything after 6.5 was great. I stuck with them the entire time they tried to jumpstart a new modern mobile OS, and the market just couldn't give one care about it.

Kind of - we also have lots of small formfactor tablets, like 7" and 8" Android tablets, iPad Mini, the odd Windows tablet, etc.

I literally think there's no point in a non-smartphone PDA, because Smartphones are PDA's. A smartphone does everything a PDA did, and more. And anyone who would carry a PDA already has a smartphone.

 

And anyone who has a smartphone and needs another device for PDA-like function, basically need a Tablet (and probably already have one).

No argument there - but at the same time, Google itself doesn't need Android smartphone manufacturers to be successful, per se - they are after the data, in the end, not hardware sales.

Windows10 mobile was NOT win10.  It ran very few of the same things and the UI was always very different.  It had a lot of software that was called by the same name, but it wasn’t the same.   There are some devices that already do this.  Mostly.  They always seem to have some weird but crippling flaw.  A “keyboard” that can only be one-finger-punched like the pictured one is an example.  It’s better than 10 key, but not by much.

 

As to “good experience” please be more specific.