Could windows PDAs return

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Windows10 mobile was NOT win10.

No - at least, not directly. It was based on the same base though.

 

But that wasn't my point - there already exist compact Windows 10 (full blown) devices. We've got (or have had) a few ARM based ones, and there are some low power x86 ones too.

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

 It ran very few of the same things and the UI was always very different.  It had a lot of software that was called by the same name, but it wasn’t the same.   There are some devices that already do this.  Mostly.  They always seem to have some weird but crippling flaw.  A “keyboard” that can only be one-finger-punched like the pictured one is an example.  It’s better than 10 key, but not by much.

 

As to “good experience” please be more specific.

Not a good experience as in, the UI simply sucks for small devices. You either need a full keyboard - which is terrible because getting a keyboard compact enough to fit onto a PDA sized device is near impossible without making it uncomfortable or having undesirable compromises.

 

That's WHY Windows 10 Mobile was created (at least, in part) - the UI. Sure they could probably slap that UI onto a full Windows 10 device, but that's not simple. It would require a lot of rework for the menus, options, etc.

 

There's literally no point in a PDA today. Because every smartphone, every tablet, every ultra-compact palm-sized laptop - they are all PDA's, and more.

 

Now, to argue specifically for an x86 smartphone or tablet that runs full Windows 10 w/ win32 compatibility? That's very niche, but something that some people would find useful. We of course already have the Surface Pro, which is a bit on the larger size. But ultimately I think Microsoft wants to get away from Win32, as it's legacy code is holding back Windows in a lot of ways.

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

No - at least, not directly. It was based on the same base though.

 

But that wasn't my point - there already exist compact Windows 10 (full blown) devices. We've got (or have had) a few ARM based ones, and there are some low power x86 ones too.

Not a good experience as in, the UI simply sucks for small devices. You either need a full keyboard - which is terrible because getting a keyboard compact enough to fit onto a PDA sized device is near impossible without making it uncomfortable or having undesirable compromises.

 

That's WHY Windows 10 Mobile was created (at least, in part) - the UI. Sure they could probably slap that UI onto a full Windows 10 device, but that's not simple. It would require a lot of rework for the menus, options, etc.

 

There's literally no point in a PDA today. Because every smartphone, every tablet, every ultra-compact palm-sized laptop - they are all PDA's, and more.

 

Now, to argue specifically for an x86 smartphone or tablet that runs full Windows 10 w/ win32 compatibility? That's very niche, but something that some people would find useful. We of course already have the Surface Pro, which is a bit on the larger size. But ultimately I think Microsoft wants to get away from Win32, as it's legacy code is holding back Windows in a lot of ways.

Which UI?  The win10 UI?  Yeah, it’s not great for small screens. The ARM based ones are useless for app portability because they don’t run AMD64. The low power x86 stuff isn’t so much necessarily.  Foldable screen stuff may be helpful here.  Or maybe not.  The best compact full keyboard I ever personally experienced was on the psion5, but the OS was designed to use it and even it took a bit of getting used to.

 

I agree about the PDA thing.  I was a PDA user from what they first came out. I still got a treo 650 somewhere.  It was basically a pda with a phone in it.  The last device I used that was called a pda.  It was for most intents and purposes a modern cell phone though. I still consider modern cell phones to be PDAs with cell phones in them.  I know a few people who don’t carry cell phones at all but instead use apple touches and only do phone calls over WiFi. The Phone part of cell phones is growing less and less important.

 

I agree that getting around the screen area problem of windows was the purpose of winmobile.  Screens are getting bigger though. I agree that win32, and perhaps also AMD64 are issues.  Both are very long in the tooth.  The only reason I even HAVE an AMD64 system at all is it is the only thing that runs modern video games.

[dalekphalm]

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Which UI?  The win10 UI?

Yes, of course the Windows 10 UI.

 

The W10M UI is excellent - as it's simply an evolution of the WP7 UI, which was already good when first introduced.

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Yeah, it’s not great for small screens. The ARM based ones are useless for app portability because they don’t run AMD64. The low power x86 stuff isn’t so much necessarily.  Foldable screen stuff may be helpful here.  Or maybe not.  The best compact full keyboard I ever personally experienced was on the psion5, but the OS was designed to use it and even it took a bit of getting used to.

A device like the Psion5 would be incredibly niche today, and quite bulky compared with a tablet of similar size. Of course, you could always use a bluetooth snap-on keyboard similar to what the Surface Pro does.

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I agree about the PDA thing.  I was a PDA user from what they first came out. I still got a treo 650 somewhere.  It was basically a pda with a phone in it.  The last device I used that was called a pda.  It was for most intents and purposes a modern cell phone though. I still consider modern cell phones to be PDAs with cell phones in them.

We are in agreement here - Smartphones are PDA's. Full stop. They might be called a different product, but they serve all of the same functions and more as a PDA did.

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I know a few people who don’t carry cell phones at all but instead use apple touches and only do phone calls over WiFi. The Phone part of cell phones is growing less and less important.

I can only assume they bought an iPod touch due to cost reasons (probably not wanting to pay for a cellular plan) - that is incredibly uncommon though.

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I agree that getting around the screen area problem of windows was the purpose of winmobile.  Screens are getting bigger though. I agree that win32, and perhaps also AMD64 are issues.  Both are very long in the tooth.  The only reason I even HAVE an AMD64 system at all is it is the only thing that runs modern video games.

Eventually Microsoft is going to have go to the way of MacOS, and kill legacy compatibility for the sake of the future of their platform. It will suck when that happens, but if they pull it off properly, it'll be better in the long term. It'll also allow them to build a platform that's much less reliant on specific hardware (eg: x86).

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Yes, of course the Windows 10 UI.

 

The W10M UI is excellent - as it's simply an evolution of the WP7 UI, which was already good when first introduced.

A device like the Psion5 would be incredibly niche today, and quite bulky compared with a tablet of similar size. Of course, you could always use a bluetooth snap-on keyboard similar to what the Surface Pro does.

We are in agreement here - Smartphones are PDA's. Full stop. They might be called a different product, but they serve all of the same functions and more as a PDA did.

I can only assume they bought an iPod touch due to cost reasons (probably not wanting to pay for a cellular plan) - that is incredibly uncommon though.

Eventually Microsoft is going to have go to the way of MacOS, and kill legacy compatibility for the sake of the future of their platform. It will suck when that happens, but if they pull it off properly, it'll be better in the long term. It'll also allow them to build a platform that's much less reliant on specific hardware (eg: x86).

The iPod touch thing is pretty uncommon.  I’ve only seen two and it is I think a cost thing in both instances.  That it can be done at all was the point.  Cost affects everyone, and people are making phone calls less and less.  I’d say 80% of the calls I receive are robocall scams.  I only even answer the phone because I need to keep in touch with contractors and I have a few family members who don’t text.  Smartphones are being relied on more and more for the smart and less and less for the phone.

[Kilrah]

There is a Psion 5 like device, but it's Android/linux based:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cosmo-communicator?utm_source=sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bck-03062020update&utm_term=#/

 

AFAIK it's the same person who designed the 5's keyboard that made this one too. 

 

For Windows the closest that exists is really the GPD Win2 that I posted a pic of earlier. Not much size difference even, Win2 is 100gr heavier. - but then it's a fully fledged and pretty powerful PC with great battery life...

Frankly the Series 5 keyboard is slightly overrated... I don't remember exactly how it was back in the day, maybe materials aging hasn't made things better... but while you do have more room to put your finger on a key the reliability of the keypresses isn't that great. Getting double presses and misses quite often, key stability is not excellent and while the key is bigger you have to press on the middle or it will bind.

 

I actually type faster/more reliably on the win2. And the Psion really only works on a table, in the hands it's impossible to type. With the Win2 no problem.

 

 

 

 

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

There is a Psion 5 like device, but it's Android/linux based:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cosmo-communicator?utm_source=sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bck-03062020update&utm_term=#/

 

AFAIK it's the same person who designed the 5's keyboard that made this one too. 

 

For Windows the closest that exists is really the GPD Win2 that I posted a pic of earlier. Not much size difference even, Win2 is 100gr heavier. - but then it's a fully fledged and pretty powerful PC with great battery life...

Franky the Series 5 keyboard is slightly overrated... I don't remember exactly how it was back in the day, maybe materials aging has something do do with it... but while you do have more room to put your finger on a key the reliability of the keypresses isn't that great. Getting double presses and misses quite often, key stability is not excellent and while the key is bigger you have to press on the middle or it will bind.

 

I actually type faster/more reliably on the win2. And the Psion really only works on a table, in the hands it's impossible to type. With the Win2 no problem.

 

 

 

 

Your description of the psion5 keyboard is about how I remember it.  Laptop keyboards have gotten better.  At the time the quality was very similar.  The Win2 has a thumb/thumb keyboard a bit less than half the size of the psion keyboard that cannot be touch typed on at all.  Your complaint seems to be that it is impossible to touch type while supporting a device with ones hands.  Yes.  This is true.  Of all touchtype systems.  The standard behavior with the psion5 was when using it in the hands rather than on a flat surface (any flat surface would do) was to hold it with one hand and type with the other.  It will be somewhat slower when held in the hands but MUCH faster when not. A speed increase that cannot be achieved at all with a chicklet style keyboard like the win2.  It becomes a question of how much one uses a device in what orientation.  The win2 is slightly better for one style, but near useless for the other.

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

 I stuck with them the entire time they tried to jumpstart a new modern mobile OS, and the market just couldn't give one care about it.

I was going to say exactly that but I didn't want to start a flame war.  MS were the first truly versatile smartphone and PDA with windows mobile in 2003, however after google and ios took the market, every time they tried to re enter the field ignorant tech media  would go after the easy clicks and tech enthusiasts would turn it all into a joke.    Not going to lie, any phone OS needs apps and without an established market not enough  developers want to waste time on it, and that was a real problem.  But there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the OS itself that deserved the bashing it got on forums and in some media.

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I was going to say exactly that but I didn't want to start a flame war.  MS were the first truly versatile smartphone and PDA with windows mobile in 2003, however after google and ios took the market, every time they tried to re enter the field ignorant tech media  would go after the easy clicks and tech enthusiasts would turn it all into a joke.    Not going to lie, any phone OS needs apps and without an established market not enough  developers want to waste time on it, and that was a real problem.  But there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the OS itself that deserved the bashing it got on forums and in some media.

This is true.  It wasn’t particularly bad.  It just wasn’t windows.  For cause of course, but that didn’t matter to folks who thought they could force Microsoft to produce something that would run their x86 apps.  Part of the killer was winCE which everyone called “wince” for a reason.  It WAS bad.

[dalekphalm]

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

This is true.  It wasn’t particularly bad.  It just wasn’t windows.  For cause of course, but that didn’t matter to folks who thought they could force Microsoft to produce something that would run their x86 apps.  Part of the killer was winCE which everyone called “wince” for a reason.  It WAS bad.

But it was never going to be Windows x86 style. And even if it could run win32 apps, they would either not properly run, or the UI would be goddamn awful and it would be a total crap experience.

 

Windows Phone 7.x was awesome, and it only got better with Windows Phone 8.x. Windows 10 Mobile was supposed to fix the problems by having a core shared with actual Windows, but ultimately, the lack of Apps killed it.

 

No matter how good the OS is, if app developers don't jump on board, you're dead. And when one of the most popular apps is also your biggest OS competitor (Google Apps/Android), it really can shoot you in the face.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, dalekphalm said:

But it was never going to be Windows x86 style. And even if it could run win32 apps, they would either not properly run, or the UI would be goddamn awful and it would be a total crap experience.

 

Windows Phone 7.x was awesome, and it only got better with Windows Phone 8.x. Windows 10 Mobile was supposed to fix the problems by having a core shared with actual Windows, but ultimately, the lack of Apps killed it.

 

No matter how good the OS is, if app developers don't jump on board, you're dead. And when one of the most popular apps is also your biggest OS competitor (Google Apps/Android), it really can shoot you in the face.

No argument.  I’m not defending the logic.

[Kilrah]

I think the Windows phone UI design was one of the big issues, it was somewhat ahead of its time. The big ones have moved towards more minimalistic design by now, but did so gradually. WP was extremely minimalistic at a time where things were still in the "show fake paper and leather on screen to make non-techy users feel comfortable" style and was too disruptive to be taken seriously.

[Kisai]

On 3/13/2020 at 8:21 AM, dalekphalm said:

 

Eventually Microsoft is going to have go to the way of MacOS, and kill legacy compatibility for the sake of the future of their platform. It will suck when that happens, but if they pull it off properly, it'll be better in the long term. It'll also allow them to build a platform that's much less reliant on specific hardware (eg: x86).

They never have to, just like OSX never had to. There are specific reasons why.

 

With OSX (and Linux), since the OS requires parallel libraries to be installed to run 32-bit software, it becomes a huge hassle to keep the libraries installed. Code rot everywhere. Since almost nobody uses Linux as a desktop, and only Apple makes the hardware for MacOS, there is no reason why they can not drop 32-bit support, and ripping off that bandaid really should be done since even having one 32-bit program running incurs performance penalties. 

 

With Windows, the (wow32) 32-bit subsystem is integral to being able to run software going back to Win95, and the 16-bit subsystem (NTVDM) can be installed on 32-bit versions of Windows XP thru to Win 10 and still run binaries produced in 1991.

 

If Microsoft decides to "we are no longer supporting 32-bit binaries", there goes their entire embedded market. What they could do, to kinda rub it in the developers face, is to restrict 32-bit binaries to a "nag" screen like when you need to run something with admin privileges. eg "The program you are running uses insecure or obsolete programming practices, use at your own risk." Do not permit them to run as a service or startup, and do not permit them to run as a scheduled task or scripted task. eg to run it in a script you have to run "wow32.exe program.exe"

 

Basically disincentive running 32bit software in the same way you disincentive using MSIE. First you provide an alternative, and then you stop adding new features to the 32-bit api. This is already happening with the DirectX api's. Because this would break nearly every Windows game ever produced (most games still ship with 32-bit installers, just like make 32-bit games shipped with 16-bit installers.) 

 

At some point Microsoft could then release a version update that does not include WoW32, (ARM versions of Windows wouldn't have this anyway.) Put that in the microsoft store if you need it.

[Spindel]

OMG I surley hope they don’t come back.

 

I had a ”smart phone” at work in 2006-2007 running Windows Mobile and those things where awful. Had some buissiness specific software which forced me to use it.
 

Thank you Apple for killing that platform forever (before I get jumped, don’t kid your self early Android sucked)