China face recognition laws come into force.

[Guest]

Mobile users in China will only be able to access the web.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-50587098

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People in China are now required to have their faces scanned when registering new mobile phone services, as the authorities seek to verify the identities of the country's hundreds of millions of internet users.

The regulation, announced in September, was due to come into effect Sunday.

The government says it wants to "protect the legitimate rights and interest of citizens in cyberspace".

China already uses facial recognition technology to survey its population.

It is a world leader in such technologies but its intensifying use across the country in recent years has sparked debate. 

 

At first glance this feels very big brother. Thinking about it more though it is not much more than the data already collected on our mobiles. We are already logged onto many services which identify us, coupled with gps location. So what is facial recognition actually adding?

 

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What are the new rules?

When signing up for new mobile or mobile data contracts, people already are required to show their national identification card (as required in many countries) and have their photos taken.

But now, they will also have their faces scanned in order to verify that they are a genuine match for the ID provided.

China has for years been trying to enforce rules to ensure that everyone using the internet does so under their "real-name" identities. 

In 2017, for example. new rules required internet platforms to verify a user's true identity before letting them post online content.

The new regulation for telecom operators was framed by the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology as a way to "strengthen" this system and ensure that the government can identify all mobile phone users. Most Chinese internet users access the web via their phones.

In some ways this could reduce trolling, or at the very least enable locating some of those that fire off abuse etc online.

 

However there is quite a backlash about facial recognition and privacy in general in China. People are feeling it is going too far and fear abuse of powers by their government. Understandable really given their history.

[Arika]

49 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

At first glance this feels very big brother.

what do you mean "at first glace"? this is China

 

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People are feeling it is going too far and fear abuse of powers by their government.

Yes...this is China, they're not exactly known as a bastion for privacy and letting their citizens be people

[PlayStation 2]

Someone should tell China that Brave New World was not meant to be used as a service manual for a country.

[Eaglerino]

33 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Someone should tell China that Brave New World was not meant to be used as a service manual for a country.

but that's what China wants

[Salv8 (sam)]

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

People are feeling it is going too far and fear abuse of powers by their government

oh reeeeeeeally?

they don't trust their government?

lets just have a read of the Wikipedia article of human rights in china which is just under 19 thousand words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China

hmm...

interesting... very interesting... (fuck you i love portal 2 and yes that is a reference to it)

i like the part of the organ harvesting...

but don't forget we love our chinese leader and to show how much we love him here's an image of him:

[Hugh54321]

This is asking for a joke about all Chinese people look the same

[Gegger]

I get it for mobile phone services, especially with sim stealing/jacking being a thing.

 

other than that and other more paperworky things, i don't get it, especially when you are checkin in at a really small hotel and they have facial recognition machines

 

also, if you are above the age of 14 and do not hold a Chinese passport, you get fingerprints taken

[Taf the Ghost]

South Korea implemented a system that effectively locked everyone into "real accounts" for any major platforms a very long time ago. For as much as China is just going murder dissidents with this, this actually isn't out of the norm within the Region.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Arika S said:

what do you mean "at first glace"? this is China

 

Yes...this is China, they're not exactly known as a bastion for privacy and letting their citizens be people

The sword is dangerous on both sides,  with 1/3rd the worlds population, hiding is real easy and as much as absolute freedom is a good thing, for china it is not.  any uprising would very likely result in the entire country becoming worse than Indian slums, or the middle east at it's worst in terms of violent conflict.

 

 

[Tech_Dreamer]

i dunno what to think about these hardcore surveillance anymore. On one side you got the absolute right to anonymity because a tyrannical power*cough cough* can control & have a say on your right to speak or do something(freedom of speech) & abuse that control over generations kinda like an old religious group oppression tactic. on the other hand, people do tend to take advantage of the anonymity to abuse that power to do heinous crimes. Human trafficking, child abuse, organized lynching, targeted atrocities.  we only know things when they get caught. visible surveillance could indeed curb these hidden outcomes & catch criminals with full evidence & tie them directly or catch them on track to commit these crimes & bring em to true justice.

 

 which kinda evil you want depends on your community & your people. 

[Taf the Ghost]

2 hours ago, Tech_Dreamer said:

i dunno what to think about these hardcore surveillance anymore. On one side you got the absolute right to anonymity because a tyrannical power*cough cough* can control & have a say on your right to speak or do something(freedom of speech) & abuse that control over generations kinda like an old religious group oppression tactic. on the other hand, people do tend to take advantage of the anonymity to abuse that power to do heinous crimes. Human trafficking, child abuse, organized lynching, targeted atrocities.  we only know things when they get caught. visible surveillance could indeed curb these hidden outcomes & catch criminals with full evidence & tie them directly or catch them on track to commit these crimes & bring em to true justice.

 

 which kinda evil you want depends on your community & your people. 

Mass scale surveillance doesn't stop crime. It never has and it never will. It also doesn't stop terrorists. It never has and never will. "Career" criminals don't care and terrorists will actively avoid it, by nature. It doesn't hold the powerful accountable, as the tapes always go missing. Mass scale surveillance has always been about two things: 1) keeping Joe & Jane Average in line via both Fear & False Security and 2) allowing quick monitoring of Network Interactions. 

 

The second is the actual point and it comes from studies of revolutions, very specifically the American Revolution. The American Revolution was pretty much the invention of a couple of guys in Boston that were able to exploit severe weakness in the British Crown of the period. They were able to set-off the Snowball Event. That's what those in Power actually care about. Everyone else is ignore-able collateral in maintaining their own power structure. The fact Western countries now act like this isn't surprising. They copied Fascist & Communist security service approaches in the post-WW2 period. Or, in the very specific case of the US Security Services, it wasn't just scientists in Operation Paperclip.

[williamcll]

Odd, I thought this was enforced two years ago.

 

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However there is quite a backlash about facial recognition and privacy in general in China. People are feeling it is going too far and fear abuse of powers by their government. Understandable really given their history.

On mainland websites I see more complaints about the ISP provider instead of the government, ones that do gets downvoted to oblivion.

[Trik'Stari]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

The sword is dangerous on both sides,  with 1/3rd the worlds population, hiding is real easy and as much as absolute freedom is a good thing, for china it is not.  any uprising would very likely result in the entire country becoming worse than Indian slums, or the middle east at it's worst in terms of violent conflict.

 

 

You know what might mitigate that other than an oppressive authoritarian regime actively engaging in genocide?

 

A transparent, representative republic where the people actually feel they have a say in government.

 

Although they'd probably immediately be in the same boat as the rest of us, with one group demanding communism for some reason, another group fighting hard against that, and the large majority not paying attention or being misinformed.

 

I just hope here in the west we can wake enough people up to pull back on the big brother programs.

[Bombastinator]

My memory is that the Chinese government actually doesn’t have a lot of legal enforcement manpower due to the sheer size of the country and as a result devotes it almost entirely to political enforcement.  They have very little actual ability to curb things like property crime and violent crime.  They concentrate almost entirely on anti-party activity.

[Arak Zantara]

8 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

"Human beings, regrettable though it may be, are inherently vicious and have to be restrained from their viciousness"

 

guess who said that quote, and who took it quite literally

I am something of a fan of the person who actually said it and I lived where the man lives who so often gets the credit, so this one is easy     Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew and you have to give him respect and props for taking a backwater swamp and turning into a thriving metropolis * Singapore* however since he believed that it was better to be feared then loved, When I was there for 6 months in the 80's , you did not want to F Up.   Drugs , littering and I am not kidding about this"Spit on the street" If you were caught doing a an infraction you were not sent to prison. You were sentenced to strokes of the Rotan a wooden bar wrapped in leather that when wielded by a master, would peel the flesh from your ass to your shoulders. So if you were sentenced to 10 strokes and passed out at 3... your sent back to a cell to heal until they pronounce you well enough to continue. So in essence you were incarcerated but for a short amount of time. Interesting legend,while I was there it was said only one man Ever got sentenced to the Rotan twice and he committed suicide rather then live thru that hell again. Now after hearing all this the 'Quotes originator' should be fairly easy......................................(Jeopardy music) ........Machiavelli :)

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

You know what might mitigate that other than an oppressive authoritarian regime actively engaging in genocide?

 

A transparent, representative republic where the people actually feel they have a say in government.

it would be nice to think that, I just can't see it.   China is just to big, with majority of it's population needing better but the country just cannot give them more.   Making them ripe for political propaganda by fighting political factions.  A condition that would destroy china.  That is why they are so controlling of information.  If they had the bipolar political landscape of the US or Australia then strikes and militia like lobby groups would tear the place apart demanding their team be in control.

 

5 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Although they'd probably immediately be in the same boat as the rest of us, with one group demanding communism for some reason, another group fighting hard against that, and the large majority not paying attention or being misinformed.

Yep, although I think it is more likely to be controlled from the top down, hence control of the people is through simple things like government owned newspapers, social media and firewalls etc.

 

5 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

I just hope here in the west we can wake enough people up to pull back on the big brother programs.

They will never fully materialize,  what we have today is really about as bad as it's going to get.  I say this because what we have today is not worse than what we had 20 years ago.  Governments today have access to more ways of collecting data, yet what we are seeing are more governments moving toward true democracies and nations becoming freer.  The world is slowly realizing the most productivity nations are the ones who's people have a chance at being something.  They will also realize that there are ways to circumvent anonymity and certain controls (like encryption or always on listening) without taking mass freedoms away.

 

 

 

 

[amdorintel]

15 hours ago, Phill104 said:

At first glance this feels very big brother.

welcome to China

 

 

15 hours ago, Phill104 said:

it is not much more than the data already collected on our mobiles.

China is a whole other ball game compared to the rest of the world, they probably have street cameras that are facial recognition and see someone always hitting the casino or liquor store.

 

 

15 hours ago, Phill104 said:

So what is facial recognition actually adding?

In China, it adds a lot to the nanny state.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Arika S said:

what do you mean "at first glace"? this is China

 

Yes...this is China, they're not exactly known as a bastion for privacy and letting their citizens be people

The point was not about the dreadful human rights in China, we all know that is poor even though the country is very rapidly changing. The point was that almost all the data is already out there. We are all being tracked via our mobiles, picked up by cameras all over the place. Facial recognition is being used now, all over the world. Had I said the same about almost any other country the responses I am sure would be very different. For most of the developed world privacy in many ways is a myth. We I feel have gone very far down the route and there seems no way back. I wonder how much data is stored online from the rest of the world that use facial recognition to unlock our devices. China have introduced a law that makes it very obvious, that is not the case I am sure in many other parts of the world that are collecting similar data without our knowledge.

[amdorintel]

12 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

The point was that almost all the data is already out there.

that is so true, facebook, google, microsoft, cell phone apps the list is long

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

We are all being tracked via our mobiles, picked up by cameras all over the place. Facial recognition is being used now, all over the world.

well you bring up a good point, because i know in the uk they have automatic license plate readers which tracks vehicles

in canada they are utilizing blue tooth signals to give out drive times on inter-city roadways

and those cameras atop intersection lights

cameras on the transit system, which now some trains, the newer ones record whats being said

i knew one guy you came in on the train, rainy day and put his feet up on the seat, he looked a little dirty and the security camera monitor told him to put his feet down. its becoming a nanny state everywhere, in canada, in the united states. airports, border crossings, even the traffic maids have automatic license plate readers to ticket you.

 

china, man they are spying on everyone all the time. who knows what secret tracking systems they have in place over there that is labelled top secret. now with the hong kong incident they are cracking down hard, which is why i believe they are now implementing the facial rec laws.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, amdorintel said:

 

china, man they are spying on everyone all the time. who knows what secret tracking systems they have in place over there that is labelled top secret. now with the hong kong incident they are cracking down hard, which is why i believe they are now implementing the facial rec laws.

I sometimes think that china is more upfront and transparent about this sort of thing than the US is.  

[Xiee]

15 hours ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

Wrong image. Fixed it for you.

[Trik'Stari]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

it would be nice to think that, I just can't see it.   China is just to big, with majority of it's population needing better but the country just cannot give them more.   Making them ripe for political propaganda by fighting political factions.  A condition that would destroy china.  That is why they are so controlling of information.  If they had the bipolar political landscape of the US or Australia then strikes and militia like lobby groups would tear the place apart demanding their team be in control.

 

Yep, although I think it is more likely to be controlled from the top down, hence control of the people is through simple things like government owned newspapers, social media and firewalls etc.

 

They will never fully materialize,  what we have today is really about as bad as it's going to get.  I say this because what we have today is not worse than what we had 20 years ago.  Governments today have access to more ways of collecting data, yet what we are seeing are more governments moving toward true democracies and nations becoming freer.  The world is slowly realizing the most productivity nations are the ones who's people have a chance at being something.  They will also realize that there are ways to circumvent anonymity and certain controls (like encryption or always on listening) without taking mass freedoms away.

 

 

 

 

What you describe as China under real democracy, I would say would be better for the entire world than what we have now.

 

An egomaniacal totalitarian dictatorship that is hell bent on conquering the entire world.

 

4 hours ago, Caroline said:

It's bad when China uses it but it's great when western countries use it to "prevent terrorism" or when facebook adds the option to tag you in pictures and "prevent identity theft"

Ahh, an image that perfectly describes what I am going to dub "iPhone politicians".

 

Similar to armchair psychologists or keyboard warriors, but somehow dumber in their own way.

 

The kind of people who post anti-capitalist memes, from their iphone.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Trik'Stari said:

What you describe as China under real democracy, I would say would be better for the entire world than what we have now.

 

An egomaniacal totalitarian dictatorship that is hell bent on conquering the entire world.

The weird thing about China is it sort of is a democracy, just a Swiss style one where only a tiny fraction of the inhabitants are full citizens.

 

if you consider party membership to be full citizenship anyway.  The party is a tiny fraction of the population but the numbers are still huge.

 

i personally would only move to China if I could become a party member.

[Trik'Stari]

15 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The weird thing about China is it sort of is a democracy, just a Swiss style one where only a tiny fraction of the inhabitants are full citizens.

 

if you consider party membership to be full citizenship anyway.  The party is a tiny fraction of the population but the numbers are still huge.

 

i personally would only move to China if I could become a party member.

That's not a democracy, that's an aristocracy at best.

 

Also, this is a government actively engaged in genocide so.... yeah no. Nothing about the chinese government is tolerable.

[mr moose]

21 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

What you describe as China under real democracy, I would say would be better for the entire world than what we have now.

 

An egomaniacal totalitarian dictatorship that is hell bent on conquering the entire world.

 

 

The problem for china though is that there is no current alternative.  A true democracy will destroy the country,  even just freedom of speech will tear it apart. 

 

Look at the USA right now with freedom of speech and all those left extremists who are succeeding in having certain gender language considered in the same vein as racial bigotry and nazi propaganda.  What about the university rallies that shut down events where specific people are invited to speak just because they don't like what is being said. 

 

Now amplify that problem by a factor of 4 and make it about the country fighting itself over who should be in control and tell me how long it will survive before it is in absolute ruin.

 

That is why the Chinese government is so heavy handed on controlling information and why they are taking so long to become a true democracy.