This is the PC killer (Haha JK) - The Xbox Scarlett

[Bananasplit_00]

Meanwhile @ me:

[Eniqmatic]

58 minutes ago, Bananasplit_00 said:

Snip

 

God damn I loved that game

[Master Disaster]

<removed>

 

14 hours ago, sof006 said:

It's using the latest tech out there. AMDs Navi is supposed to rival that of a 2070 from Nvidia. If that is the case I'd not be surprised at Microsoft "up to" claims.

^This was what I was responding to^

 

Also please go learn the difference between a claim and a statement because I don't think either of us actually claimed anything. The word "supposed" makes a big difference to the meaning of a sentence.

 

And as for the rest of your incoherent rambling, can you demonstrate any console ever using anything more powerful than a mid range GPU? If so please post it.

 

Thought not.

 

Speculation is making a guess based off of previous experience, I speculated that MS will use a mid tier GPU because the overwhelming evidence suggests they will. Cost alone is enough to suggest they won't use top end SKUs, then you have heat output and cooling to contend with.

 

Ignoring all of that entirely, even if MS did somehow squeeze something more powerful in I still don't believe even top tier Navi is capable of 4K120 in anything more than Sonic Mania.

 

I swear you'd argue that the sky wasn't blue if the opportunity arose.

Edited June 10, 2019 by SansVarnic
Content Removed

[Sakkura]

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

When will people learn you can't compare consoles to PC's directly. Consoles have 1 hardware configuration. PC's have millions of them. It's also why iPhones perform so well. Sure, they have great chipset, but the main reason is that iOS is so tightly controlled and basically comes with very few hardware configurations, meaning you can really squeeze every drop of power from it when you need it and the way you need it since you know it'll behave this way on every single device. Consoles are like that. Sure, they have some limitations, but they can specifically optimize games for things you're just not allowed to on PC. And even on PC performance leaps were huge in recent years. Back in the day, when new game came out, you really needed latest and greatest graphic card to have alright experience with it. These days you can have a year or two old mid range card and it'll run latest game really well. Just look how long RX480 has really been around with tiny bumps in performance. with RX580 and RX590 iterations If you bought RX480 back when it came out and you can still pretty comfortably play games with it. Even new ones.

 

Or if you just look how much weaker consoles were spec wise and they could run same games just fine for the most part. Their main struggle were slow HDD's and some RAM limitations. But they covered even that just fine. With Ryzen and Navi combo, I can see why it can have a huge leap this time around and be less dependent on raw power.

Look at what happened last time there was a new console generation. The PS4 struggled compared to budget gaming PCs, the Xbone was even worse.

[IAmAndre]

22 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Look at what happened last time there was a new console generation. The PS4 struggled compared to budget gaming PCs, the Xbone was even worse.

Tbf that was a different story. Many people including me think that the original Xbox and PS4 should never have existed and they should have released the second versions instead. However the PS3 was quite a big deal at its release and was rather "cutting edge" with its Blu-ray player back in 2006 when people were still excited about "flat screens".

Now with that said I don't think that the new consoles will perform as well as PC's that are twice more expensive but they will definitely be beats. I also really wouldn't be surprised if they start releasing models costing around $1000 since things have changed and people (even those who aren't particularly tech-savvy) are buying $150 controllers, $1000 phones and $2000 TV's. 

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

 ^This was what I was responding to^

The statement you were responding to was more correct than you! 

 

Because only some people at AMD know what the Chip was that was shown a ~2 Weeks ago.

RX5700 point towards the smaller because that is how AMD named their cards for more than 20 years.

And almost 20 years, the 2nd number after the Generation the 8 is the higher end, the 7 the lower end.

Quote

Speculation is making a guess based off of previous experience, I speculated that MS will use a mid tier GPU because the overwhelming evidence suggests they will. Cost alone is enough to suggest they won't use top end SKUs, then you have heat output and cooling to contend with.

As @leadeater said, the XBox 360 (as well as Playstation 3) was a pretty high end Console, that competed with high end PCs at the time.

Heat isn't an issue as the XBox one X has more than shown. ANd that is over 200W. And also PSU aren't an issue either, with modern Topologys. 400W with up to 95% at 230VAC shouldn't be too expensive, especially since they don't need to comply to 80plus...

And VEGA is also pretty darn efficient, if you clock it down. I need to do some testing at ~RX480 Clockrates but I'd bet that there isn't much difference at all between them or the difference in power consumption is negligible at similar clock rates.

That isn't really an argument as the power consumption is also a product of voltage and clock rate. And a wider Chip usually is much more efficient than a narrower but higher clocked ones.

 

Also there is NO EVIDENCE about the Navi they will or will not use. All that is known is "Navi". That's it. For both Console manufacturers.

Sony spoilered that its an 8 Core Zen2. But that's about it. And of course the SSD of the PS4 that is said (by Cerny) to be faster than everything we have right now.

How "big" the Navi GPU inside the Scarlet and PS5 is, is pure speculation! 

But even a Navi GPU with 4096 shaders (or rather 3072) is entirely possible...

What is also unknown is the manufacturing process. I doubt they will use N7 for that. They might actually use either N7+ or N6. And that might even mean reduced cost...

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Ignoring all of that entirely, even if MS did somehow squeeze something more powerful in I still don't believe even top tier Navi is capable of 4K120 in anything more than Sonic Mania.

Why not just take it as they said and leave it there?

We do not know what they are planning, what they will do, what will come. All we have are pretty vague information about the Console.

Nothing definitive...

Heck the Information about the PS5 is slightly better than the new XBox...

 

But does it really matter?! 

Because there is one thing you are missing: The new XBox is ~1,5 Years away!
They said "HOLLIDAY 2020" that means: December 2020.

So there might be one simple reason why they weren't more precise: Because they don't know it themselves (yet)!!

Real Information will be released next year on E3! I'd assume.

Until then, why talk about that?! And yes, 120fps in DECEMBER 2020 look more plausible than right now...

 

[Doobeedoo]

Cool but most what we've known, I expected to see more detailed specs. 

[IAmAndre]

37 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Do you like the game checkers?  Because consoles love checkerboarding.  I highly doubt this is going to be a PC killer.  It might be able to run lows and some normals there with excessive checkerboarding.  But, MS seems to be overselling this crap.  It's not going to beat a 2080/Radeon VII/1080 Ti/Vega 64/1080 and so on at 4k gaming.  It's not going to have AA shit all the time and so on.  There's noway these can cost under 500 bucks and do what MS, and probably Sony with the PS5, are trying to oversell.

We don't know much about pricing or even hardware yet as I said above.

[IAmAndre]

5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty sure there was a thing earlier this year about them being on par with a 580 8gb.  

Not quite. Why would they release in 1.5 years from now a console on par with a 2-year old GPU. No they said that it will have Navi GPUs paired with some kind of Ryzen tech. Well I'm not saying that it will beat the highest end PC's but based on AMD's conference at Computex it can easily match a 2070 or something. But even then we don't know exactly what GPU will be onboard and we're talking 1.5 years from now so that's almost 2nd gen Navi. Also what if they release a high end version at around $1000? It's not for everyone but people are buying $150 controllers so there's definitely a market for that. Buying a console at that price that'll offer the best console experience for the next 5-10 years is still a better investment than an iPhone. But again that's all speculation so I can't wait for E3 2020.

[Bananasplit_00]

3 hours ago, Eniqmatic said:

God damn I loved that game

its a lot worse on Xbox than PS2 or PC, but yah NFSU2 is legendary and forever in my heart

[Commodus]

12 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty sure there was a thing earlier this year about them being on par with a 580 8gb.  But, these won't beat a 2070/5070 at gaming.  Consoles also don't usually cost more than 500 due to the target audience.  Sony made that mistake with the PS3 and had to drop the price to push sales.  So, given that logic, and another, these won't cost more than like 400 USD if they want them to sell.  Because even MS has trouble pushing the X due to the price tag.  I mean maybe if the console costed like 700, but they're making outlandish claims.  They're acting like these will be keeping up with a 2080 Ti, if not better.  All I see is outlandish claims by them as usual.

Keep in mind that the Xbox One's GPU would barely be considered an entry-level GPU today, if that, and we know just how much performance developers wrung out of it.  I don't think it's a stretch to say that Scarlett (and the PS5, for that matter) will punch above its weight, if just because developers can very specifically target its hardware and don't have to put up with as much software overhead as on a PC.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I'm not saying there isn't a market for it, but I don't see a console this generation rivialing a 2070.  Now, MS did there would be 2 versions of the console.  So, there might be a stronger one.  If I remember correctly only one console launch around 1000 bucks and that didn't sell well which was the gold version of the Neo Geo AES.  Everyone else bought the cheaper console and now it's only collected for by niche retro collectors who even then don't see the point do to the pricing of consolized MVS units for a lil less and the games are far cheaper to collect for.  If there's a cheaper model that can do the same thing then that will sell a lot better.  It was hard enough for MS to even sell the X at 500, so trying 1000 bucks for a console isn't likely going to happen.  I mean AMD does rebranding of old HW all the time, so what makes you think AMD wouldn't do that for the new consoles?  

Current pricing is far too out of wack for there to be a true strong GPU in the next generation of consoles. Unless GPU prices drop by like 30%-40% for retail cards, meaning very high volume console integration is cheaper than that pricing, more than upper mid range just won't happen.

 

Consoles aren't public/social status symbols like phones are, you don't get mocked for spending $1k-$2k on a phone but you do for a computer and you will for a console. There is just no wide appeal to spend that kind of money on this sort of item. I would, but I'm not 80%+ of the world.

 

Navi in 1.5 years in any form going in to a console isn't going to match or come close to a 2080 Ti.

[IAmAndre]

9 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

remember correctly only one console launched around 1000 bucks and that didn't sell well which was the gold version of the Neo Geo AES. 

I'm not talking about 40 year old tech. I'm talking about a time where people spend more money on their gaming equipment. Just a few years ago it would have been unthinkable to see a phone sell we'll at $1000.

11 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

mean AMD does rebranding of old HW all the time, so what makes you think AMD wouldn't do that for the new consoles?  

Because they did confirm that it would use the Navi architecture. There's no point for them to use anything less powerful than their latest products.

13 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

don't see a console this generation rivialing a 2070. 

First we're not talking about"this generation" since it's releasing in 1.5 years and then let's just watch AMD's conference tonight.

[IAmAndre]

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Consoles aren't public/social status symbols like phones are, you don't get mocked for spending $1k-$2k on a phone but you do for a computer and you will for a console. There is just no wide appeal to spend that kind of money on this sort of item. I would, but I'm not 80%+ of the world.

I have to agree with that. But if they do release a high end model that represents only 10% of their sales, and offers a combination of high end hardware and software optimization/lower game settings, it would have been a true claim. They can definitely offer 4K/120 FPS in many titles. Actually that's how current gen consoles run games at 4K

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

So, this is going to be better than a 2080 Ti by this claim.

All the commas in that statement need to be replaced with or, since that's actually going to be the case. If AMD was sitting on GPU technology that good then they are mental to not be releasing it asap in the PC market.

[IAmAndre]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

4k 120 fps is really only done with the 2080 T

I'm pretty sure my Vega 56 can play fortnite at this resolution, at least in low settings. But I get your point and I've been complaining a lot about this in other threads: many blank marketing statements with no actual facts so there's not a lot to argue about.

[IAmAndre]

As for parents hating to spend too much money on consoles, that's less and less the case and brands know it. No parent would buy an Elite controller for their kids. More and more people are buying consoles for themselves than say 10 years ago. Just look at the amount of Twitch steamers.

[SkilledRebuilds]

10 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

This is the direct quote, "Using custom-designed processor from AMD making use of Zen 2 and Navi architecture, Xbox Project Scarlett will be 4x more powerful than the Xbox One X. It'll be possible of running games at 120Hz frame rates, at potential 8K resolutions, while also showcasing fancy real-time ray-tracing tech. It's the works."   So, this is going to be better than a 2080 Ti by this claim.

I believe these two are separate entities (individual capabilities),.. put as close together as possible for marketing purposes.

Like 1080p-1200p 120fps,...and 8K 30fps abilities.

I'd be happy to be wrong of course.

[leadeater]

Well they did claim it's 4 times more powerful than the Xbox one X, so it's 4 times more than an RX 580..... so not amazing 

[Origami Cactus]

The console can do 1080p 120fps and 4k 30fps, i don't know where you guys are getting those crazy dreams.

The xbox one X had a rx580, and the new one is 4x more powerful, so about rx vega64, so

1080p 120fps and 4k 30fps are actually doable.

 

SSD is really nice, and supporting 8k TV's doesn't mean that the games would run at 8k, but 8k movies for example. The Xbox One S for example supports 4k, but that only means movies and etc, not gaming.

 

The salty PC fanboys on this thread. smh... 

Making up crazy expectations and then defending yourself. No shit it won't do 8k 120fps.

Stop making stuff up and then getting mad about it.

[IAmAndre]

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well they did claim it's 4 times more powerful than the Xbox one X, so it's 4 times more than an RX 580..... so not amazing 

I don't know it's marketing so you can make it sound however you want. Maybe when you run a global system benchmark like on UserBenchmark you get a score 4 times higher because of the SSD's, extra RAM and faster components.

[melete]

20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well they did claim it's 4 times more powerful than the Xbox one X, so it's 4 times more than an RX 580..... so not amazing 

I’d be ecstatic if it were four times as powerful as RX 580, but I suspect that it’s not and Microsoft was referring to the power of the whole hardware configuration and not just the GPU. We all know Zen 2 will smoke Jaguar. 

[Origami Cactus]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

It's the article in the OP.  We aren't coming up with this.

"Using custom-designed processor from AMD making use of Zen 2 and Navi architecture, Xbox Project Scarlett will be 4x more powerful than the Xbox One X. It'll be possible of running games at 120Hz frame rates, at potential 8K resolutions, while also showcasing fancy real-time ray-tracing tech. It's the works."  It's the wording the article is using.  I don't mind a strong console, but I hate bad reporting.

I watched the Microsoft E3 live and in there they clearly said the 8k and 120hz separately. So yeah that is a bad article.

[Kisai]

10 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

This is exactly what I thought, any one saying it cant do what they claimed need to remember that in 18 months it might not even be all that special to be able to run 8k or 4k at 120hz. The real question will be how many people will even be in a position to use that to its potential anyways

 

Yes, but we have been sold this lie before with 4K, and HD.

 

Promise: Something great, cool, awesome, because , hey new tech

Reality: Games get scaled back from what what we were shown, often to less than half of where the mainstream, never mind high end PC is.

 

Also reality: People aren't going to buy $6000 TV's to take advantage of 8K, on the console or PC.

 

The "4K" we got on the existing consoles is pretty much a scam. Yes, you can play 4K movies, or you can get a 4K upscaled HD. You don't get 4K rendered games. You can barely get 4K out of a $2000 PC.

 

Now, there is one thing in favor here. If they do actually include NVMe PCIe (4.0) SSD's, it's very possible that the loading time will be a few seconds, where existing games have taken two minutes to load. It would probably allow 8K assets, but it sure isn't going to enable 8K renders. a GTX 1080 barely does 4K, a RTX 2080 falls very much short of doing 8K. So AMD's tech by the time this console comes is unlikely to put 8K in their $99 GPU.

 

One thing you have to remember is that GPU power scaling entirely comes from die shrinks, and the 5nm and 3nm process aren't going to put 8K into the $99 or even $199 tier GPU by 2022, so it's unlikely we will see 8K on a $600 console, and I don't think gamers are going to shell out $999 for an 8K console, but they can't scale back the GPU power for a cheaper console. 

 

 

[melete]

30 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The "4K" we got on the existing consoles is pretty much a scam. Yes, you can play 4K movies, or you can get a 4K upscaled HD. You don't get 4K rendered games. You can barely get 4K out of a $2000 PC.

 

Huh? Just taking one random example here:

 

Quote

PlayStation 4 - and latterly, PS4 Pro - have taken centre-stage in Red Dead Redemption 2's pre-release marketing campaign, meaning we have a pretty decent idea of how Rockstar's latest epic presents on Sony hardware. Today, we can discuss the Xbox One versions of the game, and the key takeaway is this: if you're looking for the very best RDR2 experience, Xbox One X is the go-to platform for this game. Rockstar's stunning technological achievement runs at native 4K on the X, and also delivers the smoothest performance. Bearing in mind just how far Rockstar is pushing current-gen hardware, that's a stunning achievement.

Digital Foundry