This is the PC killer (Haha JK) - The Xbox Scarlett

[sof006]

3 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

Every console announcement, every generation, never actually achieved what they claim. Ain't going to start today.

 

They should just stop throwing numbers for the sake of fooling dumb kids who buy into the marketing and just make sure they can give a good/great experience at 1080p with a constant, sustained, no drops, 60fps.

 

That would be a great start.

Read my post, they claim "up to" in the video. People take stuff out of context, the person saying it in the video clearly states up to 120. Key words being "up to".

[Master Disaster]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

When will people learn you can't compare consoles to PC's directly. Consoles have 1 hardware configuration. PC's have millions of them. It's also why iPhones perform so well. Sure, they have great chipset, but the main reason is that iOS is so tightly controlled and basically comes with very few hardware configurations, meaning you can really squeeze every drop of power from it when you need it and the way you need it since you know it'll behave this way on every single device. Consoles are like that. Sure, they have some limitations, but they can specifically optimize games for things you're just not allowed to on PC. And even on PC performance leaps were huge in recent years. Back in the day, when new game came out, you really needed latest and greatest graphic card to have alright experience with it. These days you can have a year or two old mid range card and it'll run latest game really well. Just look how long RX480 has really been around with tiny bumps in performance. with RX580 and RX590 iterations If you bought RX480 back when it came out and you can still pretty comfortably play games with it. Even new ones.

 

Or if you just look how much weaker consoles were spec wise and they could run same games just fine for the most part. Their main struggle were slow HDD's and some RAM limitations. But they covered even that just fine. With Ryzen and Navi combo, I can see why it can have a huge leap this time around and be less dependent on raw power.

You do realise that non of the previous gen consoles were capable of true 4K at all right? They all used tricks to make a smaller resolution image look 4K and even then non could do anything at "4K" (but not really) 60FPS.

 

A spade is still a spade no matter how you make it look and a mid tier Navi card is not capable of 4K120 no matter how much MS optimise their games. OK maybe in something like Sonic Mania but for anything serious, yeah, no.

[suicidalfranco]

Just now, sof006 said:

Read my post, they claim "up to" in the video. People take stuff out of context, the person saying it in the video clearly states up to 120. Key words being "up to".

up to or not, my point still stand, would rather see them make a good console that can do 1080p@60fps, constantly, no matter the game thrown at it, no matter the amount of objects in one scene, the amount of visual effects happening in an action.

[sof006]

Just now, suicidalfranco said:

up to or not, my point still stand, would rather see them make a good console that can do 1080p@60fps, constantly, no matter the game thrown at it, no matter the amount of objects in one scene, the amount of visual effects happening in an action.

It's using the latest tech out there. AMDs Navi is supposed to rival that of a 2070 from Nvidia. If that is the case I'd not be surprised at Microsoft "up to" claims.

[suicidalfranco]

1 minute ago, sof006 said:

It's using the latest tech out there. AMDs Navi is supposed to rival that of a 2070 from Nvidia. If that is the case I'd not be surprised at Microsoft "up to" claims.

up to can also just mean while looking at a wall, whilst not moving, with nothing in the foreground doing stuff. It's unrealistic, has every time they claimed such things for previous generations.

 

Focus on one good experience (1080p@60fps), market the games, don't waste our time with unrealistic numbers.

[Master Disaster]

4 minutes ago, sof006 said:

It's using the latest tech out there. AMDs Navi is supposed to rival that of a 2070 from Nvidia. If that is the case I'd not be surprised at Microsoft "up to" claims.

Nope, the top tier Navi is supposed to rival 2070, unfortunately due to limitations like heat output and airflow it's always been impossible to cram top tier hardware into a console. I don't see that changing any time soon unless Microsoft make the case the size of your average mid tower.

 

You cannot beat the laws of thermodynamics.

 

And even assuming they did cram a 2070 equivalent in, it's still not enough for 4K120. Not even close.

[sof006]

2 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Nope, the top tier Navi is supposed to rival 2070, unfortunately due to limitations like heat output and airflow it's always been impossible to cram top tier hardware into a console. I don't see that changing any time soon unless Microsoft make the case the size of your average mid tower.

 

You cannot beat the laws of thermodynamics.

You'd be surprised what Microsoft can do. The One X does a pretty good job at dissipating heat. 

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, sof006 said:

You'd be surprised what Microsoft can do. The One X does a pretty good job at dissipating heat. 

The only surprising thing here is that people still buy into this nonsense despite being lied to every generation.

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Not sure if sarcastic or serious.

Worse...

It seems what @Crunchy Dragon said was what M$ said in that Presentation...

And he just made fun of that...

9 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Yes, I know, but even high end PCs struggle to consistently get 120FPS at 4K, so I doubt that it will be able to do that. It's probably upscaled 4K or something.

IIRC they didn't say that.

What they did say was "120fps" a couple of times but I don't recall it beeing in the context of 4k...

 

But it could be possible, though at "Console Detail Level", wich is normally a mix of medium and high. Its not that far up the scale...

 

But really, I doubt it at 4K and they mean either 1080p or 1440p at best...

[Stefan Payne]

23 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Nope, the top tier Navi is supposed to rival 2070,

That's not true.

We don't know (yet), if that was the Top Tier Navi they have right now or the lower end part.

We only know it exist and performs around the 2070 level. That's all we do know.

We will know more tomorrow at this time. Until then, that claim is just speculation from you without any basis.

 

But the Name "RX5700" doesn't support your claim. Because the last Card with the 7 as the Performance Qualifying Number was in 2002 and called "Radeon 9700", after that it was either 8 or 9...

 

 

So what is the RX5800 and how will it look and what will be the RX5900??

 

 

And just assume real lazy naming:
Was the RX570 the "top tier Polaris" or was it the RX580??

[Master Disaster]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

That's not true.

We don't know (yet), if that was the Top Tier Navi they have right now or the lower end part.

We only know it exist and performs around the 2070 level. That's all we do know.

We will know more tomorrow at this time. Until then, that claim is just speculation from you without any basis.

 

But the Name "RX5700" doesn't support your claim. Because the last Card with the 7 as the Performance Qualifying Number was in 2003 and called "Radeon 9700", after that it was either 8 or 9...

 

 

So what is the RX5800 and how will it look and what will be the RX5900??

What claim? Do you understand basic English?

 

I refuted a claim by posting the currently reported specs clearly shown as rumours by the word "supposed".

[leadeater]

22 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

The only surprising thing here is that people still buy into this nonsense despite being lied to every generation.

PS3 actually had pretty decent hardware for the time, CPU and GPU. GPU was slightly above a 7800 GTX using G70/G71 custom variant making the only things faster than it the 7900 GTX/7900 GX2/7950 GX2 and similar for ATI, only the very very top end. CPU was way ahead just unbearably complex for most.

 

PS3 was the last of the real console hay day era where things were actually highly custom and built to be great not "good enough".

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

I refuted a claim by posted the currently reported specs clearly shown as rumours by the word "supposed".

Why claim it at all?!

 

We do not know if the RX5700 is the lower or higher spec part, that is just pure speculation from your end.

AMD has NEVER said where it was and all questions about Navi were answered with "E3".

 

[RejZoR]

34 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

You do realise that non of the previous gen consoles were capable of true 4K at all right? They all used tricks to make a smaller resolution image look 4K and even then non could do anything at "4K" (but not really) 60FPS.

 

A spade is still a spade no matter how you make it look and a mid tier Navi card is not capable of 4K120 no matter how much MS optimise their games. OK maybe in something like Sonic Mania but for anything serious, yeah, no.

Lol? So, because previous gen couldn't, next gen can't either. You got some weird logic there...

[Master Disaster]

Just now, Stefan Payne said:

Why claim it at all?!

 

We do not know if the RX5700 is the lower or higher spec part, that is just pure speculation from your end.

AMD has NEVER said where it was and all questions about Navi were answered with "E3".

 

I didn't claim it, go back and read the post by the person I responded to.

 

Hint: they claimed it, I pointed out it was only a rumour.

[Master Disaster]

2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Lol? So, because previous gen couldn't, next gen can't either. You got some weird logic there...

Is it really though. You really expect consoles to start outperforming PCs while using the same hardware as PCs in a single generation leap?

[Derangel]

34 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

You do realise that non of the previous gen consoles were capable of true 4K at all right? They all used tricks to make a smaller resolution image look 4K and even then non could do anything at "4K" (but not really) 60FPS.

 

A spade is still a spade no matter how you make it look and a mid tier Navi card is not capable of 4K120 no matter how much MS optimise their games. OK maybe in something like Sonic Mania but for anything serious, yeah, no.

 

More than you'd think run at true 4K, at least on the X.

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

PS3 actually had pretty decent hardware for the time, CPU and GPU.

Naa, GPU wasn't that great.

It was still a CineFX based unit, even though nVidia didn't mention it much, it suffered from the same Problems as the Geforce FX: the pipeline included TMUs so when the Chip was texturing, it stalls the Shaders.

 

And there was a bug in the design as well, where there was a couple of Megabyte between CPU and GPU, though I forgot what the Conditions for that were. It might be CPU Accessing GPU Memory...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX_Reality_Synthesizer#Speed_table

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

CPU was way ahead just unbearably complex for most.

and from what I heard using the SPE were also a bit weird as well.

So nobody really used them...

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

PS3 was the last of the real console hay day era where things were actually highly custom and built to be great not "good enough".

XBox 360 wasn't too far off, though the CPU wasn't out of order and a 3 Core Power PC at 3,2GHz with SMT, but in order...

I'm not sure about the PS3 main Power PC CPU, if that was the same model or an out of order one.

 

The sad thing is that there were many games that didn't perform that great on the PS3 and performed far better on the XBox 360...

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Naa, GPU wasn't that great.

It was still a CineFX based unit, even though nVidia didn't mention it much, it suffered from the same Problems as the Geforce FX: the pipeline included TMUs so when the Chip was texturing, it stalls the Shaders.

The point was it was great for the time, there were extremely few GPUs from both Nvidia and ATI that were better until the next year.

[Stefan Payne]

Just now, leadeater said:

The point was it was great for the time, there were extremely few GPUs from both Nvidia and ATI that were better until the next year.

Wel, don't know about the RSX but the Xenos was absolutely ahead of its time and the first GPU to feature unified shader, wich was really introduced with the DX10 cards...

But yeah, after that we had more or less PC Architectures and less innovative Chip designs in consoles...

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

and from what I heard using the SPE were also a bit weird as well.

So nobody really used them...

Everyone used them, that's how the CPU worked. The PPE did no computation, it's job was to send work to the SPE's. The Xbox 360 did not use Cell and used a modified Power CPU that most said was just the Cell PPE with 3 cores which is not really that accurate.

 

Two totally different CPU architectures, you just needed to be at a very high level of competence to program for the Cell BE which is a rare thing to find in game development. People of that type of skill set are found in computational research and have much better working conditions.

 

19 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

XBox 360 wasn't too far off, though the CPU wasn't out of order and a 3 Core Power PC at 3,2GHz with SMT, but in order...

I'm not sure about the PS3 main Power PC CPU, if that was the same model or an out of order one.

No the Xbox 360 CPU was far less capable and much lower performance it just didn't require near as much effort and many developers at the time were pushing for cross platform so you are limited to lowest common denominator that being the Xbox 360.

 

There's a reason why hundreds of thousands PS3's were brought and used as clusters, it's why IBM(Sony) locked out Linux support so they would stop losing money hand over fist from people not buying their servers with the Cell BE in it.

 

19 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

The sad thing is that there were many games that didn't perform that great on the PS3 and performed far better on the XBox 360...

That's because those were made for Xbox 360 first then ported, badly, to the PS3.

[Stefan Payne]

12 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I didn't claim it, go back and read the post by the person I responded to.

 

Hint: they claimed it, I pointed out it was only a rumour.

You didn't?!
And what is that then?!

40 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Nope, the top tier Navi is supposed to rival 2070, unfortunately due to limitations like heat output and airflow it's always been impossible to cram top tier hardware into a console. I don't see that changing any time soon unless Microsoft make the case the size of your average mid tower.

 

You cannot beat the laws of thermodynamics.

 

And even assuming they did cram a 2070 equivalent in, it's still not enough for 4K120. Not even close.

WE DO NOT KNOW THAT!

WE DO NOT KNOW WICH PART AMD DEMONSTRATED ~2 WEEKS AGO!

It can be the bigger part.

It can be the slower part.

 

We do not know, when the BIG NAVI will come either.

Allegedly Navi was respun and should have been released in March, instead of the Radeon 7.

47 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

A spade is still a spade no matter how you make it look and a mid tier Navi card is not capable of 4K120 no matter how much MS optimise their games.

You make some steep claims...

Because:

a) we do not know what kind of Navi GPU the consoles will have

b) how much Memory and how fast

c) how wide the Memory

d) because Navi wasn't officially released, M$ couldn't talk about that much anyway...

 

I really don't get why you say such things, when all you have to do is wait less than 24h to know.

What if you're totally wrong?!

 

What we do know is that, at the same clock, Navi is said to be 25% faster and consumes 50% the power of VEGA. And that is all we do know about Navi. And that one of the Navi Cards is called RX5700. And that card is about on par with the RTX2070. But everything else is speculation. We don't know anything about that. NOBODY DOES! And everyone that asked AMD got a smile and "E3" as an Answer...

 

They have proven that they can improve things beyond expectations with the Ryzen 3600-3900 release ~2 Weeks ago, so why assume anything less than a day before the release - with prices!

[sazrocks]

Regardless of the validity of MS’ claims, AMD is going to majorly benefit from the next cycle of consoles, in multiple ways.

First, obviously, is the raw revenue that will be gained from both sides having all AMD consoles

Second, is the benefit to us ryzen PC users (and users with 6+ cores in general) because console games will be optimized for zen2, both in terms of core count and architecture. This could reall start giving AMD some much needed advantages over intel in terms of software optimization.

[Bravo1cc]

10 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Yes, I know, but even high end PCs struggle to consistently get 120FPS at 4K, so I doubt that it will be able to do that. It's probably upscaled 4K or something.

Even if they do somehow manage this, the cost would be the equivalent of a high end PC(over $1000). Thats not console pricing for sure.

[boberobbo]

9 hours ago, System32.exe said:

It's using a Navi GPU and has hardware accelerated ray tracing.. I wonder if that means we're getting AMD's take on RTX much sooner than expected?

Not really. The console is going to be released at holidays 2020. I'd assume AMD ray tracing cards would release way before that.