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The 2018 Butterfly Keyboards still have a problem

DrMacintosh
By DrMacintosh
in Tech News
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Posted
1 hour ago, 79wjd said:

It's not that simple.

 

I actually really like the feel of the butterfly switch.

Ew 

There is more that meets the eye
I see the soul that is inside

 

 

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Posted

I went to the Apple Store a little while back.  Here is what I found:

 

+iPhone XR is LEGIT!

+The resolution & pixel density differences between all of Apple's newest phones are negligible to the trained eye, unnoticeable to the untrained one.

+The iPad Pro is LEGIT!

+I still hate trackpads.

+I still hate Apple's Magic Mouse.

+I felt like I was gonna break the MacBooks (any of them) if I pressed a key too hard.

 

To be honest, my style of typing isn't touch-typing; rather, I'd call it "finger-punching."  I pretty much punch every key I type with a finger (any finger, really) except for the spacebar which I hit with the side of my thumb, as is traditional.  For me, I can't tell if I hit a key or not with Apple's new MacBooks; the keys are too flat!  And because they're too flat, I feel like I could punch a finger through a key and break the "butterfly switch," even though I subconsciously know that I won't.  Not my cup of tea.

Sorry for the mess!  My laptop just went ROG!

"THE ROGUE":  ASUS ROG Zephyrus G15 GA503QR (2021)

  • Ryzen 9 5900HS
  • RTX 3070 Laptop GPU (80W)
  • 24GB DDR4-3200 (8+16)
  • 2TB SK Hynix NVMe (boot) + 2TB Crucial P2 NVMe (games)
  • 90Wh battery + 200W power brick
  • 15.6" 1440p 165Hz IPS Pantone display
  • Logitech G603 mouse + Logitech G733 headset

"Hex": Dell G7 7588 (2018)

  • i7-8750H
  • GTX 1060 Max-Q
  • 16GB DDR4-2666
  • 1TB SK Hynix NVMe (boot) + 2TB Crucial MX500 SATA (games)
  • 56Wh battery + 180W power brick
  • 15.6" 1080p 60Hz IPS display
  • Corsair Harpoon Wireless mouse + Corsair HS70 headset

"Mishiimin": Apple iMac 5K 27" (2017)

  • i7-7700K
  • Radeon Pro 580 8GB (basically a desktop R9 390)
  • 16GB DDR4-2400
  • 2TB SSHD
  • 400W power supply (I think?)
  • 27" 5K 75Hz Retina display
  • Logitech G213 keyboard + Logitech G203 Prodigy mouse

Other tech: Apple iPhone 14 Pro Max 256GB in White, Sennheiser PXC 550-II, Razer Hammerhead earbuds, JBL Tune Flex earbuds, OontZ Angle 3 Ultra, Raspberry Pi 400, Logitech M510 mouse, Redragon S113 keyboard & mouse, Cherry MX Silent Red keyboard, Cooler Master Devastator II keyboard (not in use), Sennheiser HD4.40BT (not in use)

Retired tech: Apple iPhone XR 256GB in Product(RED), Apple iPhone SE 64GB in Space Grey (2016), iPod Nano 7th Gen in Product(RED), Logitech G533 headset, Logitech G930 headset, Apple AirPods Gen 2 and Gen 3

Trash bin (do not buy): Logitech G935 headset, Logitech G933 headset, Cooler Master Devastator II mouse, Razer Atheris mouse, Chinese off-brand earbuds, anything made by Skullcandy

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Posted
2 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Its also got a red phone to China

That's what Trump wants you to believe 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Apple aren't short of money, they in no way have a cashflow problem. So why are they shooting themselves in the foot by releasing products they haven't tested properly?

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1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

Yes. Many times. I've done direct comparisons between my Surface Pro 4, Note 10.1 2014 (rip), and MBP 2017. It's the same experience as tocuscreen.

 

Now, you've made the claim that it's similar to a mech keyboard. Have you ever typed on one of those for more than a minute before?

It wouldn't be so bad if Apple just made the keyboard another screen, I mean their taptic engine is good so it would at least feel better than the crappy keyboards Apple is using.

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1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

It wouldn't be so bad if Apple just made the keyboard another screen, I mean their taptic engine is good so it would at least feel better than the crappy keyboards Apple is using.

So, basically copy Lenovo.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

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Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

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1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

It wouldn't be so bad if Apple just made the keyboard another screen, I mean their taptic engine is good so it would at least feel better than the crappy keyboards Apple is using.

The problem is that it isn't universally bad. I use MX Clears, a 2013 MBP, a 2018 MBP, and a generic Dell keyboard on a daily basis and I really like the butterfly switches. And it's also nothing like a touchscreen, which I've also used a decent bit with my old SP3, and was awful.

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WE?DONT?NEED?THIN?LAP?TOPS?

WE?NEED?RE?LI?A?BLE?LAP?TOPS?

 

We dont need thin laptops

We need reliable laptops

✨FNIGE✨

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11 minutes ago, SlimyPython said:

WE?DONT?NEED?THIN?LAP?TOPS?

WE?NEED?RE?LI?A?BLE?LAP?TOPS?

 

We dont need thin laptops

We need reliable laptops

The RMA rate on the 2016 MBPs was significantly down at the time that this issue originally came about -- the keyboard RMA rate was higher, but the overall rate was way down. The same likely applies to the 2017 and 2018 Macs. 

 

Based on the same data, Apple's RMA rate wasnt abnormal either. 

 

In general there isn't a reliability issue and people absolutely do care about size as weight.

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1 minute ago, SlimyPython said:

WE?DONT?NEED?THIN?LAP?TOPS?

WE?NEED?RE?LI?A?BLE?LAP?TOPS?

 

We dont need thin laptops

We need reliable laptops

Other companies are to blame for trading reliability for marketing how light they can make a laptop, but Apple is one of the worst for it. Its amazing how a switch design still doesnt work, and their previous keyboards were great compared to the butterfly keyboards.

37 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

The problem is that it isn't universally bad. I use MX Clears, a 2013 MBP, a 2018 MBP, and a generic Dell keyboard on a daily basis and I really like the butterfly switches. And it's also nothing like a touchscreen, which I've also used a decent bit with my old SP3, and was awful.

I guess maybe the problem is isolated and UnboxTherapy's keyboards could just be a bad one, but its still enough of a problem when many have complained the butterfly keyboards feel worse, and a keyboard shouldn't be worse on a $1500 laptop than a $500 one. Everyone has their preference, but I preferred the switches on a 2012 MBP over the butterfly switches which had almost no tactile feel or really any key travel. If i had to use a macbook with the butterfly switches i'd carry my own keyboard around lol, and Dell's laptop keyboards are usually decent.

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6 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

 

The solution is not free replacement programs, the solution is a keyboard design that doesn't blow...

 

Credit where credit is due. This^ is 100% correct.

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Quote

I guess maybe the problem is isolated and UnboxTherapy's keyboards could just be a bad one, but its still enough of a problem when many have complained the butterfly keyboards feel worse, and a keyboard shouldn't be worse on a $1500 laptop than a $500 one. Everyone has their preference, but I preferred the switches on a 2012 MBP over the butterfly switches which had almost no tactile feel or really any key travel. If i had to use a macbook with the butterfly switches i'd carry my own keyboard around lol, and Dell's laptop keyboards are usually decent.

The overall rate of dust related problems -- at least with the past models, the new one is still a bit too new to really know --seems to be relatively low (too high, but still something that only affects a minority of users). I also haven't had the 2018 MBP long enough to say whether or not dust is still a problem. All I can say is that I like the feel of the butterfly switches.

 

But it's still worth mentioning that most people won't go to the internet to rave about how they like something, unlike people who are dissatisfied who are far more likely to be vocal about it. So I wouldn't take a side regarding the average user's opinion of the feel of the two switches. I personally prefer the new keyboards, but others clearly do feel differently; at the end of the day it's just a personal preference and my guess would be that most users will just get used to it and not have a strong preference one way or another.

 

The Dell keyboard is the "newer" chiclet style, which I generally like. So I do like the keyboard, but I still prefer both the old MBP and 2018 MBP switches.

 

I actually saw an ad for a keyboard the other day that looks really nice (at least on the surface, I haven't looked into it): https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-mechanical-keyboard?variant=18433415512153

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On 1/19/2019 at 3:19 PM, Monkey Dust said:

Apple aren't short of money, they in no way have a cashflow problem. So why are they shooting themselves in the foot by releasing products they haven't tested properly?

Probably because they know their cash flow won't be affected by bad products.

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What an absolutely shit design.

 

All for what? A couple of millimeters? Not at all a good tradeoff if it means a keyboard that's can't be used in normal environments.

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Steve Jobs wouldn't have let this happen. The bad design would have been rectified after the 2016 MBP issues. Tim Cook is not retaining Apple's once high standards.

 

They have become just like the PC makers, if something sucks they just keep using it for a few iterations before fixing it.

 

Butterfly keyboards for Apple, nose angled web cams for Dell, lack of Thunderbolt for Microsoft.. None of them seem to care to fix a device's shortcomings before the 3 or 4th generation after they are introduced.

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11 minutes ago, Chett_Manly said:

Steve Jobs wouldn't have let this happen.

Yes, he would.

 

12 minutes ago, Chett_Manly said:

The bad design would have been rectified after the 2016 MBP issues.

No, Jobs would have blamed the consumer.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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Just now, Drak3 said:

No, Jobs would have blamed the consumer.

Yes, but they would have fixed it before they launched a new one. Not kept using it year after year. Holding it wrong wasn't a 4 generation issue as Butterfly Keyboards are looking to be.

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As long as their replacement keyboards get redesigned to actually fix the issue this time instead of "well this one doesn't have it, but it's the exact same keyboard prone to the exact same issues" 

🌲🌲🌲

 

 

 

◒ ◒ 

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4 hours ago, Arika S said:

As long as their replacement keyboards get redesigned to actually fix the issue this time instead of "well this one doesn't have it, but it's the exact same keyboard prone to the exact same issues" 

Not sure how common it is for anyone to completely redesign a hardware component that fits exactly in line with the old one. That is the solution, but it’s unlikely we will see it come to pass without a new chassis design. 

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8 hours ago, Chett_Manly said:

Yes, but they would have fixed it before they launched a new one. Not kept using it year after year.

Kind of ignores thermal issues of products like the Mac Minis.

 

8 hours ago, Chett_Manly said:

Holding it wrong wasn't a 4 generation issue as Butterfly Keyboards are looking to be.

Actually, the Butterfly keyboard is a 1 generation issue. Each model year is not its own generation, and when it became known that the keyboard design was bad, Apple came up with a solution that they thought would work.

 

Some signs are looking like it didn't.

1 hour ago, firelighter487 said:

it is. Apple is doing so many oopsies ... 

It's nothing new. Like, at all.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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Last time I heard a rumor that apple's next gen keyboard is gonna be super thin.

I think this gen is just a filler gen. Just to let people get used to the thin travel, if you jump from a normal keyboard to a super thin one people are gonna get pissed.

 

See ipad pro for example, remember the stupid design for charging your apple pencil on the lightning port??? Yeah, that's a filler gen. Same as butterfly keyboard.

If it is not broken, let's fix till it is. 

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3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Kind of ignores thermal issues of products like the Mac Minis.

 

Actually, the Butterfly keyboard is a 1 generation issue. Each model year is not its own generation, and when it became known that the keyboard design was bad, Apple came up with a solution that they thought would work.

 

Some signs are looking like it didn't.

It's nothing new. Like, at all.

The solution of putting a silicone layer over the switches was supposed to fix the problem fix should have been the 2nd gen of butterfly keyboards,a different keyboard would have been another gen to about any other manufacturer.

Not anything new at all though, if it isn't the keyboard its stuff like batteries that can fail and expand breaking the touchpad.

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1 hour ago, mrchow19910319 said:

Last time I heard a rumor that apple's next gen keyboard is gonna be super thin.

Not really sure that you can get much thinner. The switches have about half a mm of actuation. You can't go much lower than that. 

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