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UPDATED* AMD announces the Radeon VII - but it's $699 | Nvidia calls it "Lousy"

YoloSwag
By YoloSwag
in Tech News
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“The performance is lousy and there’s nothing new. There’s no ray tracing, no AI"

 

Two features of which one can be experienced in 2 games after months of waiting. Oh and if performance is so lousy, then RTX 2080 is also lousy because Radeon 7 perfoms around RTX 2080 level.

 

Jensen, sit down and shut up, you're drunk.

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5 hours ago, cj09beira said:

Toyota is probably the first one i would think of, mercedes second (there is nothing after that).

i think amd would be in a much better position had they launched a vega polaris replacement, it would have walked all over the 1060, but i guess they are very tight in R&D side, i would probably cancel vega 12 at the very start and make it into a polaris replacement card, the cost to do so would be around the same unless apple helped there, other than that there aren't many things i would do differently.

i was first expecting hbm 3 to be here by now, hopefully there will be something in the middle like an 3Gbps hbm 2, 2.4Gbps is fun but not a large jump. I also find it strange that Vega VII doesn't use it.

It isn't under full production yet. It's on 7nm DRAM nodes, along with DDR5. Industry is slow-rolling the transition because they haven't maxed out the memory tech. The for first time in a while that's been true.

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23 hours ago, 2Buck said:

How is it a meme? It's completely legitimate criticism. HBM makes the cards more expensive to manafacture, and most people don't need it. The card could be more competitively priced.

 

AMD blows my mind. Ryzen is killing it, they're checking all the boxes, but they can't get GPUs right. Sure, their budget is tight so it's harder to get new stuff out, but with stuff like HBM, they're doing it to themselves.

 

(Typed from my phone, if I made any typing errors oh well I'm too lazy to fix it.)

Again the Radeon 7 is just a rebranded MI50 accelerator used for deep learning. The MI50 costs more than $699 and is a failed MI60 die. So this is simply a way to stay on the market as Navi wasn't ready

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
6 hours ago, cj09beira said:

Toyota is probably the first one i would think of, mercedes second (there is nothing after that).

i think amd would be in a much better position had they launched a vega polaris replacement, it would have walked all over the 1060, but i guess they are very tight in R&D side, i would probably cancel vega 12 at the very start and make it into a polaris replacement card, the cost to do so would be around the same unless apple helped there, other than that there aren't many things i would do differently.

i was first expecting hbm 3 to be here by now, hopefully there will be something in the middle like an 3Gbps hbm 2, 2.4Gbps is fun but not a large jump. I also find it strange that Vega VII doesn't use it.

I mean Lexus comes to mind seeing as it's Toyota's luxury brand. 

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1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

“The performance is lousy and there’s nothing new. There’s no ray tracing, no AI"

 

Two features of which one can be experienced in 2 games after months of waiting. Oh and if performance is so lousy, then RTX 2080 is also lousy because Radeon 7 perfoms around RTX 2080 level.

 

Jensen, sit down and shut up, you're drunk.

I am honestly surprised that there are even that many games that support it at this point. It takes a long time to make a game and to just be able to implement raytracing at the end of the development cycle seems like a difficult task. I would guess that games that are more early on in development when raytracing tech was a avaible are the games that will actually use it. There should be many more titles in the future that use it but that will take time just like an new tech. The important thing is that someone had to create the tech otherwise gane developers wouldn t use it. Now that they have support for raytracing in many of the popular game engines it should make raytracing much more common in games that use those engines going forward. 

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3 hours ago, TOMPPIX said:

*snip

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-publishes-radeon-vii-benchmark-results-from-26-games.html

It's almost exactly the same speed as a RTX2080 and much cheaper. Amazon and Newegg have RTX2080s for $730-$780+

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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10 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

It's almost exactly the same speed as a RTX2080 and much cheaper. Amazon and Newegg have RTX2080s for $730-$780+

Well, we'll need to see what the actual price is, rather than the MSRP of the Radeon 7. AMD would have been much better off if they could run 8 Gb versions (they can't) with this same die for 599USD. Performance would have been similar and with actually decent margins for them.

 

Weirdly, I think this is AMD's best launch of the entire Vega line. Mostly because they probably fixed all of the internal problems with Vega. This will be price & performance competitive with the 2080. And that 16 Gb of HBM2 is going to give this one a rather long life span for a gaming GPU. Have to wait for independent testing, but it isn't looking like a bad buy.

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29 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Well, we'll need to see what the actual price is, rather than the MSRP of the Radeon 7. AMD would have been much better off if they could run 8 Gb versions (they can't) with this same die for 599USD. Performance would have been similar and with actually decent margins for them.

 

Weirdly, I think this is AMD's best launch of the entire Vega line. Mostly because they probably fixed all of the internal problems with Vega. This will be price & performance competitive with the 2080. And that 16 Gb of HBM2 is going to give this one a rather long life span for a gaming GPU. Have to wait for independent testing, but it isn't looking like a bad buy.

I think the longevity part is huge as tensor and RT cores are a very new technology so there is a lot more to be done unlike the sorta stalling we are seeing with just GPUs. So a Radeon 7 might not have ray tracing but if you are video editing or other work station use that would never use the tensor cores. This seems like a nice investment. Also do we have any kind of metric on the lifespan and failure rate or RT and tensor cores? I know google has been using them for a while now but the cooling is much more adequate and it's not 10 μm away from a 250W GPU core

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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On 1/10/2019 at 5:35 AM, YoloSwag said:

~~SNIP~~

UPDATE:

Nvidia's Jensen Huang had a couple of things to say about the announcement -

LMAO. This is the first time I heard something like this from Jensen. He sounds like a 12-year old kid and he's the CEO.

Well, I think he's speaking to his own cards "And if we turn on ray tracing we'll crush it" yeah, sounds about right the way Ray-Tracing takes a toll on the RTX cards.

 

 

AMD's Lisa Su does however gave a moderate response -

 

Source: Fudzilla

 

 

My take from it was of excitement at first.

 

Untill the price was shown.

 

Price is just as important as performance.

 

At $700 its at the same price as you can get a 2080, with the deciding factor predominantly being brand loyalty, as the 2080 has less VRAM but DLSS/RT, while the VII has a bunch of HBM2 instead. In the end i doubt the performance difference will be the deciding factor, i think price will be, and i honestly dont think the price is good enough.

The 2080 is to expensive ..the VII is the same price ..which means it is also to expensive.

 

It should be $550-$600. At that price AMD would have won hands down. Instead the consumers are getting shafted again with an effective price hike of 1 whole tier not only from Nvidia , but now also AMD. The problem being if they get the sales, this price hike will stick.

 

 

AMD cant change the memory type, but i would hope that, if they simply cant lower the price due to production cost, that they can atleast half the HBM2 amount to 8gb so that they can lower the price.

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5 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

 

My take from it was of excitement at first.

 

Untill the price was shown.

 

Price is just as important as performance.

 

At $700 its at the same price as you can get a 2080, with the deciding factor predominantly being brand loyalty, as the 2080 has less VRAM but DLSS/RT, while the VII has a bunch of HBM2 instead. In the end i doubt the performance difference will be the deciding factor, i think price will be, and i honestly dont think the price is good enough.

The 2080 is to expensive ..the VII is the same price ..which means it is also to expensive.

 

It should be $550-$600. At that price AMD would have won hands down. Instead the consumers are getting shafted again with an effective price hike of 1 whole tier not only from Nvidia , but now also AMD. The problem being if they get the sales, this price hike will stick.

 

 

AMD cant change the memory type, but i would hope that, if they simply cant lower the price due to production cost, that they can atleast half the HBM2 amount to 8gb so that they can lower the price.

The price will stick because the market will pay.   AMD and Nvidia understand their markets very well.  AMD also know if they reduce their ram to 8G then they immediately hand nvidia the top specs,  especially if we ignore RT and AI which by comparison come at no extra cost now.  That is not good for business.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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15 hours ago, cj09beira said:

Toyota is probably the first one i would think of, mercedes second (there is nothing after that).

i think amd would be in a much better position had they launched a vega polaris replacement, it would have walked all over the 1060, but i guess they are very tight in R&D side, i would probably cancel vega 12 at the very start and make it into a polaris replacement card, the cost to do so would be around the same unless apple helped there, other than that there aren't many things i would do differently.

i was first expecting hbm 3 to be here by now, hopefully there will be something in the middle like an 3Gbps hbm 2, 2.4Gbps is fun but not a large jump. I also find it strange that Vega VII doesn't use it.

 

The thing you need to understand is there's no real way to make a cheap Vega. Vega architecture is literally predicted on using HBM. And HBM jacks up the price. Similarly, because of how HBM works there is no way to downsize the amount without cutting bandwidth.

 

Vega's entire issue is that it's really a coprocessor addon card that just happens to be able to also do GPU tasks on the side. Vega 7 probably has enough grunt under the hood to run raytracing in practise, and it might even outperform the 2080 in games like BF5 that don't use the RT cores because of how much grunt it has under the hood. AMD's greatest issue is that game developers jumped all over CUDA but functionally ignored Vulkan. In the datacenter that isn't as huge an issue AFAIK, programs are supporting all that compute hardware, but in game a large % of the VEGA silicon is basically doing "weet FA.

 

If you could cut all of that off not only would production costs fall through the floor, but the performance to power usage would blow the 20 series NVIDIA cards out of the water en passant. But because of how VEGA is designed you can't easily do that as the compute stuff is tid into the render pipeline even if it's being mostly unused.

 

3 hours ago, SolarNova said:

 

My take from it was of excitement at first.

 

Untill the price was shown.

 

Price is just as important as performance.

 

At $700 its at the same price as you can get a 2080, with the deciding factor predominantly being brand loyalty, as the 2080 has less VRAM but DLSS/RT, while the VII has a bunch of HBM2 instead. In the end i doubt the performance difference will be the deciding factor, i think price will be, and i honestly dont think the price is good enough.

The 2080 is to expensive ..the VII is the same price ..which means it is also to expensive.

 

It should be $550-$600. At that price AMD would have won hands down. Instead the consumers are getting shafted again with an effective price hike of 1 whole tier not only from Nvidia , but now also AMD. The problem being if they get the sales, this price hike will stick.

 

 

AMD cant change the memory type, but i would hope that, if they simply cant lower the price due to production cost, that they can atleast half the HBM2 amount to 8gb so that they can lower the price.

 

The problem is that would mean halving the memory bandwidth. And thats assuming the memory controller allows it.

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I understand Jensen is proud of his company's products and he has a right to be.  From attitudes alone however I would argue Lisa Su is a more refined CEO and less likely to start a fight in a bar over whose GPU is bigger.

 

Also, I wonder if they'll introduce an 8GB SKU in addition to the 16GB SKU.

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6 hours ago, mr moose said:

The price will stick because the market will pay.   AMD and Nvidia understand their markets very well.  AMD also know if they reduce their ram to 8G then they immediately hand nvidia the top specs,  especially if we ignore RT and AI which by comparison come at no extra cost now.  That is not good for business.

I agree with what you said however I think the 16GB HBM2 would have the same performance with a 8GB HBM2 variant if they ever release one at least in games.

The 8GB one should be cheap enough to be competitive for people who don't care about ray-tracing or DLSS.

You can bark like a dog, but that won't make you a dog.

You can act like someone you're not, but that won't change who you are.

 

Finished Crysis without a discrete GPU,15 FPS average, and a lot of heart

 

How I plan my builds -

Spoiler

For me I start with the "There's no way I'm not gonna spend $1,000 on a system."

Followed by the "Wow I need to buy the OS for a $100!?"

Then "Let's start with the 'best budget GPU' and 'best budget CPU' that actually fits what I think is my budget."

Realizing my budget is a lot less, I work my way to "I think these new games will run on a cheap ass CPU."

Then end with "The new parts launching next year is probably gonna be better and faster for the same price so I'll just buy next year."

 

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4 minutes ago, YoloSwag said:

16GB HBM2 would have the same performance with a 8GB HBM2

This is correct.

 

I'm curious if people actually max out the VRAM in the 8+GB cards, though.

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9 minutes ago, YoloSwag said:

I agree with what you said however I think the 16GB HBM2 would have the same performance with a 8GB HBM2 variant if they ever release one at least in games.

The 8GB one should be cheap enough to be competitive for people who don't care about ray-tracing or DLSS.

More than likely, however it's still a lower spec and not all end uses are solely games.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Many companies release the highest end sku's first as way to get a luxury first adopter tax.  The first AMD products with 7nm will be epyc and radeon 7. After that, ryzen 3000 will drop alongside newer midrange graphics cards.

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7 hours ago, SolarNova said:

AMD cant change the memory type, but i would hope that, if they simply cant lower the price due to production cost, that they can atleast half the HBM2 amount to 8gb so that they can lower the price.

No they can't as that would make the product pointless as there wouldn't be much saving in production.

Ok, with the lower capacity products but then again, the Problem is the assembly of the Chip, putting the dies on the Interposer. If you fuck up the placement of the last die, you can throw away:
a) one good GPU Die

b) 4 good memory stacks

 

So that is the real Problem with the HBM Stuff...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Anandtech just confirmed that there's not 128 ROPs on the chip after all. That's disappointing. However that explains the small performance gain and somehow becomes somewhat of a relief. So the gains are all memory bandwidth and clock speed.

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2 hours ago, Trixanity said:

Anandtech just confirmed that there's not 128 ROPs on the chip after all. That's disappointing. However that explains the small performance gain and somehow becomes somewhat of a relief. So the gains are all memory bandwidth and clock speed.

It was good to see that for Radeon 7 gaming the performance increase over Vega 64 is a lot higher than the clock-speed increase. Seems to be a combo of clocks, memory bandwidth and some micro-architectural tweaks.

 

I'm guessing the original Vega was a bit immature with all the stories about the project been short staffed and rushed because of engineering resources diverted to Navi. When Vega64 came out there was some tests done with it downclocked to Fury X clocks which proved that clock for clock the improvement was less than 5% over Fiji.

http://m.hardocp.com/article/2017/09/12/radeon_rx_vega_64_vs_r9_fury_x_clock_for/15

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26 minutes ago, Humbug said:

It was good to see that for Radeon 7 gaming the performance increase over Vega 64 is a lot higher than the clock-speed increase. Seems to be a combo of clocks, memory bandwidth and some micro-architectural tweaks.

 

I'm guessing the original Vega was a bit immature with all the stories about the project been short staffed and rushed because of engineering resources diverted to Navi. When Vega64 came out there was some tests done with it downclocked to Fury X clocks which proved that clock for clock the improvement was less than 5% over Fiji.

http://m.hardocp.com/article/2017/09/12/radeon_rx_vega_64_vs_r9_fury_x_clock_for/15

I don't think there's any architectural tweaks that would aid gaming. As far as I know it's all compute and ML. Of course there might be silicon bug fixes but I haven't heard of anything being gaming oriented specifically. I mean it is MI50 leftovers after all. Vega is mostly a write-off for consumers. Great enterprise card though.

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43 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If both have 4 stacks then yes, if the 8GB only has 2 then no.

I suspect the price difference between a 4 stack at 8 and 16 GB is negligible.

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4 hours ago, Trixanity said:

Anandtech just confirmed that there's not 128 ROPs on the chip after all. That's disappointing. However that explains the small performance gain and somehow becomes somewhat of a relief. So the gains are all memory bandwidth and clock speed.

rip ROPs ?

On a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam

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Ok, so there aren't 128 ROPs. But how many are there? Still 64 or have they bumped that to 96 ? I mean, if they gained all this performance from 200MHz more on the core and some bandwidth on HBM2, then that's quite significant, meaning Vega core is actually really capable, if you can get it clocked high enough and give it enough memory bandwidth. If Radeon 7 had 2GHz core like RTX 2080 (or Ti), it would be in the same performance territory.

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